Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Gedas]

Hi Mark and TU for that information. Most interesting.  I will do as you 
suggested. I also saw on the EEV site that the freq was in fact 
off.I think it is low by a small amount that corresponds to being 
off 2 Hz at 100 GHz.  I suspect for my needs I can consider it close 
enough to 10 MHz.


Gedas, W8BYA

Gallery at http://w8bya.com
Light travels faster than sound
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

On 3/14/2016 1:13 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

I believe that it was mentioned here that the BG7TBL GPSDO disciplined 
oscillator controls the OCXO using a FLL (frequency locked loop) instead of a 
PLL (phase locked loop).  Their implementation causes a slight error in the 
output frequency.  Search the time-nuts archives (best to use Google) for the 
relevant thread(s).


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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Bryan _]

There is a interesting hobbyist level GPS frequency generator project on utube. 
Not time nuts level, but a neat project nonetheless. Uses the Neo-7M. Three 
parts.
https://youtu.be/zZ6tc_ROdfU

-=Bryan=-

> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 16:11:16 -0400
> From: t...@patoka.org
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source
> 
> 
> I would say its even more convenient to monitor binary format, since its 
> more compact and could be read as a structures
> 
> // u-blox UBX protocol essentials
> 
> typedef struct ubx_header {
>  unsigned char preamble1;
>  unsigned char preamble2;
>  unsigned char msg_class;
>  unsigned char msg_id;
>  unsigned short length;
> } my_ubx_header;
> 
> typedef struct ubx_nav_timegps {
>  unsigned long iTOW_ms;
>  signed long fTOW_ns;
>  signed short week;
>  signed char leapS;
>  unsigned char valid;
>  unsigned long tAcc;
> } my_ubx_nav_timegps;
> 
> typedef struct ubx_nav_timeutc {
>  unsigned long iTOW_ms;
>  unsigned long tAcc_ns;
>  signed long nano;
>  unsigned short year;
>  unsigned char month;
>  unsigned char day;
>  unsigned char hour;
>  unsigned char min;
>  unsigned char sec;
>  unsigned char valid;
> } my_ubx_nav_timeutc;
> 
> and so on...
> 
> 
> On 2016-03-14 15:38, Björn wrote:
> >  Originalmeddelande Från: Gedas
> > <w8...@mchsi.com> Datum:2016-03-14  19:52  (GMT+01:00)
> > Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > <time-nuts@febo.com> Rubrik: Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS
> > Disciplined Source 
> > 
> > 
> > Who would have guessed a Russian OCXO.  And, I guess the U-Blox is not
> > one of the better GPS units based on what Paul mentioned.  But I think
> > there is software out there that will let me at least monitor what my
> > unit is doing and how many birds it is receiving data from.
> > 
> > Ublox makes excellent receivers. The monitoring software is fine.
> > 
> > https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/u-center-windows
> > 
> > But they dont talk (old) scpi.
> > 
> > --
> >  Björn
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> -- 
> WBW,
> 
> V.P.
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[John Miles]

My understanding from someone who has purchased one recently is that the 
frequency offset error was indeed just a bug, and that it's now fixed.  I've 
added a note to the end of my page at http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm to that 
effect.

If the bug has been fixed (or the algorithm replaced), and if you get one with 
a good MV89A OCXO, the BG7TBL GPSDO has the potential for decent performance.  
In principle all of the right ingredients are there... it's just a question of 
whether the software is making the most of them.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Lars
> Walenius
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:41 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you are lucky the MV89 might be a very good OCXO and U-Blox makes very
> good GPS modules. The NEO-6M is not the best as it isn´t a timing module. But
> in your GPSDO the GPS module with an external antenna is not the limiting
> factor but more the controller and it´s limited resolution on the time
> measurement that is larger than the ripple from the GPS module. Also the
> software with FLL seems to limit the performance a lot. But with the long time
> constant the frequency accuracy, even with the offset due to the FLL, will be
> quite good.
> 
> U-blox own software uCenter have worked well for me.
> 
> Lars

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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Bob Camp]

Hi

It’s not just a Russian OCXO, it’s a Russian OCXO that has been through a very 
nasty salvage process. It is rare to find one that is in very good shape after 
the “gentle hands” have removed it from the original equipment. 

Bob

> On Mar 14, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Gedas  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hal, and TU for the reply. Tu also to everyone else with the very helpful 
> hints and info.  Following the advice of Joe I checked out the EEV Blog 
> site.very good information about the different variants of this maker.  
> Turns out, because I have a model (date code) of 2014-12-09 that it 
> corresponds to this revision and information:
> 
> custom board with surplus russianmorion mv89 
> OCXO. gps isu-blox 
> NEO-6M-0-001 .
> 
> Who would have guessed a Russian OCXO.  And, I guess the U-Blox is not one of 
> the better GPS units based on what Paul mentioned.  But I think there is 
> software out there that will let me at least monitor what my unit is doing 
> and how many birds it is receiving data from. I also have the 8-port signal 
> splitter which is nice as I can now run my reference to all my various TE.
> 
> Oh well, it is what it is as I do not have the money to purchase a different 
> one. To answer your question I am using the supplied "hockey puck" style 
> antenna placed outside my basement window well, sitting on a small wooden 
> shelf, but close to ground level.  The antenna should have a clear view from 
> 90-280 degrees, from an elevation angle of 0-90 degrees.  Anything from West 
> to North to East (~280-90 degrees) is blocked by the house.  I guess my next 
> step, as Bob suggested will be to install some monitoring software to see how 
> many birds I am able to see on average.
> 
> Gedas, W8BYA
> 
> Gallery at http://w8bya.com
> Light travels faster than sound
> This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
> 
> On 3/14/2016 12:55 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> w8...@mchsi.com said:
>>> This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an
>>> inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined
>>> Source) for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc  and
>>> was wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a  similar
>>> unit.  I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short &  long term
>>> accuracy and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have  access to any
>>> accurate (known) frequency sources like I did while  employed and I do not
>>> think I have the equipment here at home to measure  my unit myself.
>> Long term accuracy will be very good - you are tracking GPS.
>> 
>> You didn't say anything about your antenna.  That's probably the major
>> contributor to your short term accuracy.
>> 
>> Google found:
>>   http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bg7tbl-gpsdo-master-reference/
>> Looks like there are various versions.
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Paul]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Gedas  wrote:

> And, I guess the U-Blox is not one of the better GPS units based on what
> Paul mentioned


Actually the U-Blox receivers are perfectly fine.  The problem with these
units (as far as I can tell) is that you don't have any control over the
GPS (which is what I failed to make clear earlier) unless you can reverse
engineer the set-up code.  The serial port data on mine is transmit only.
Because of this I can't select the output strings or their format.  The
unit I have does emit the sats-in-view message but it's U-Blox binary (aka
UBX) not NMEA ascii which makes it a bit more difficult to parse.
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Vlad]

I would say its even more convenient to monitor binary format, since its 
more compact and could be read as a structures


// u-blox UBX protocol essentials

typedef struct ubx_header {
unsigned char preamble1;
unsigned char preamble2;
unsigned char msg_class;
unsigned char msg_id;
unsigned short length;
} my_ubx_header;

typedef struct ubx_nav_timegps {
unsigned long iTOW_ms;
signed long fTOW_ns;
signed short week;
signed char leapS;
unsigned char valid;
unsigned long tAcc;
} my_ubx_nav_timegps;

typedef struct ubx_nav_timeutc {
unsigned long iTOW_ms;
unsigned long tAcc_ns;
signed long nano;
unsigned short year;
unsigned char month;
unsigned char day;
unsigned char hour;
unsigned char min;
unsigned char sec;
unsigned char valid;
} my_ubx_nav_timeutc;

and so on...


On 2016-03-14 15:38, Björn wrote:

 Originalmeddelande Från: Gedas
<w8...@mchsi.com> Datum:2016-03-14  19:52  (GMT+01:00)
Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com> Rubrik: Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS
Disciplined Source 


Who would have guessed a Russian OCXO.  And, I guess the U-Blox is not
one of the better GPS units based on what Paul mentioned.  But I think
there is software out there that will let me at least monitor what my
unit is doing and how many birds it is receiving data from.

Ublox makes excellent receivers. The monitoring software is fine.

https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/u-center-windows

But they dont talk (old) scpi.

--
 Björn
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and follow the instructions there.


--
WBW,

V.P.
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Lars Walenius]

Hi

If you are lucky the MV89 might be a very good OCXO and U-Blox makes very good 
GPS modules. The NEO-6M is not the best as it isn´t a timing module. But in 
your GPSDO the GPS module with an external antenna is not the limiting factor 
but more the controller and it´s limited resolution on the time measurement 
that is larger than the ripple from the GPS module. Also the software with FLL 
seems to limit the performance a lot. But with the long time constant the 
frequency accuracy, even with the offset due to the FLL, will be quite good.

U-blox own software uCenter have worked well for me.

Lars

Från: Gedas<mailto:w8...@mchsi.com>
Skickat: den 14 mars 2016 20:00
Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement<mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

Hi Hal, and TU for the reply. Tu also to everyone else with the very
helpful hints and info.  Following the advice of Joe I checked out the
EEV Blog site.very good information about the different variants of
this maker.  Turns out, because I have a model (date code) of 2014-12-09
that it corresponds to this revision and information:

custom board with surplus russianmorion mv89
<http://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/MV89.pdf>OCXO. gps isu-blox
NEO-6M-0-001 <https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neo-6-series>.

Who would have guessed a Russian OCXO.  And, I guess the U-Blox is not
one of the better GPS units based on what Paul mentioned.  But I think
there is software out there that will let me at least monitor what my
unit is doing and how many birds it is receiving data from. I also have
the 8-port signal splitter which is nice as I can now run my reference
to all my various TE.

Oh well, it is what it is as I do not have the money to purchase a
different one. To answer your question I am using the supplied "hockey
puck" style antenna placed outside my basement window well, sitting on a
small wooden shelf, but close to ground level.  The antenna should have
a clear view from 90-280 degrees, from an elevation angle of 0-90
degrees.  Anything from West to North to East (~280-90 degrees) is
blocked by the house.  I guess my next step, as Bob suggested will be to
install some monitoring software to see how many birds I am able to see
on average.

Gedas, W8BYA

Gallery at http://w8bya.com
Light travels faster than sound
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

On 3/14/2016 12:55 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
> w8...@mchsi.com said:
>> This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an
>> inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined
>> Source) for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc  and
>> was wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a  similar
>> unit.  I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short &  long term
>> accuracy and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have  access to any
>> accurate (known) frequency sources like I did while  employed and I do not
>> think I have the equipment here at home to measure  my unit myself.
> Long term accuracy will be very good - you are tracking GPS.
>
> You didn't say anything about your antenna.  That's probably the major
> contributor to your short term accuracy.
>
> Google found:
>http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bg7tbl-gpsdo-master-reference/
> Looks like there are various versions.
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Björn]

 Originalmeddelande Från: Gedas 
<w8...@mchsi.com> Datum:2016-03-14  19:52  (GMT+01:00) 
Till: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
<time-nuts@febo.com> Rubrik: Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined 
Source 


Who would have guessed a Russian OCXO.  And, I guess the U-Blox is not 
one of the better GPS units based on what Paul mentioned.  But I think 
there is software out there that will let me at least monitor what my 
unit is doing and how many birds it is receiving data from. 

Ublox makes excellent receivers. The monitoring software is fine.

https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/u-center-windows

But they dont talk (old) scpi.

--
 Björn
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[time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Mark Sims]

I believe that it was mentioned here that the BG7TBL GPSDO disciplined 
oscillator controls the OCXO using a FLL (frequency locked loop) instead of a 
PLL (phase locked loop).  Their implementation causes a slight error in the 
output frequency.  Search the time-nuts archives (best to use Google) for the 
relevant thread(s).

  
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Gedas]

Hi Hal, and TU for the reply. Tu also to everyone else with the very 
helpful hints and info.  Following the advice of Joe I checked out the 
EEV Blog site.very good information about the different variants of 
this maker.  Turns out, because I have a model (date code) of 2014-12-09 
that it corresponds to this revision and information:


custom board with surplus russianmorion mv89 
OCXO. gps isu-blox 
NEO-6M-0-001 .


Who would have guessed a Russian OCXO.  And, I guess the U-Blox is not 
one of the better GPS units based on what Paul mentioned.  But I think 
there is software out there that will let me at least monitor what my 
unit is doing and how many birds it is receiving data from. I also have 
the 8-port signal splitter which is nice as I can now run my reference 
to all my various TE.


Oh well, it is what it is as I do not have the money to purchase a 
different one. To answer your question I am using the supplied "hockey 
puck" style antenna placed outside my basement window well, sitting on a 
small wooden shelf, but close to ground level.  The antenna should have 
a clear view from 90-280 degrees, from an elevation angle of 0-90 
degrees.  Anything from West to North to East (~280-90 degrees) is 
blocked by the house.  I guess my next step, as Bob suggested will be to 
install some monitoring software to see how many birds I am able to see 
on average.


Gedas, W8BYA

Gallery at http://w8bya.com
Light travels faster than sound
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

On 3/14/2016 12:55 AM, Hal Murray wrote:

w8...@mchsi.com said:

This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an
inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined
Source) for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc  and
was wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a  similar
unit.  I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short &  long term
accuracy and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have  access to any
accurate (known) frequency sources like I did while  employed and I do not
think I have the equipment here at home to measure  my unit myself.

Long term accuracy will be very good - you are tracking GPS.

You didn't say anything about your antenna.  That's probably the major
contributor to your short term accuracy.

Google found:
   http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bg7tbl-gpsdo-master-reference/
Looks like there are various versions.




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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Paul]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Gedas  wrote:

> sometime ago I purchased an inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source
> (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source) for my various counters, transceivers,
> spectrum analyzers, etc and was wondering if it was a good purchase


It was probably an acceptable purchase.  Hopefully you didn't get one with
a U-Blox GPS since monitoring U-Blox binary output is unpleasant.  If you
feel like doing a bit of fiddling Jackson Labs makes some nice products and
are quite time-nut friendly.  Back in 2014 they did a cost-effective
(<$200)  board which might still be available at time-nuts pricing.  Of
course the BG7 units should come with a nice ovenized oscillator in a
reasonable chassis which are "add-ons" with the JL board.
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The key to any GPSDO is continuous satellite view. A good antenna should give 
you at least 4 satellites in view / locked on at all times. Much of the time 
you should see more than 8 satellites. Set up with whatever software your 
device uses and have it run long term plots of the satellites in view. The next 
step is to monitor DAC voltage and see what it’s doing. 

The monitoring software is a very key part of any GPSDO setup. It’s not easy 
stuff to write and it can be fairly device specific. One advantage of the 
surplus commercial units is the availability of multiple versions of monitoring 
software for them. You may have to dig a bit more for the BG7TBL units. They 
are a bit new on the market. 

Bob


> On Mar 13, 2016, at 11:47 PM, Gedas  wrote:
> 
> Hello to the group. I am a new member and 1st wanted to say hello. I also 
> wanted to say that I have been reading, with great interest, most of the 
> posts here for the last 2-3 weeks.  I must say, I am quite ignorant of the 
> majority of the information & terms being passed back and forth so this is a 
> neat learning experience for me. I am a retired EE (had a prior life in the 
> TEMPEST community for over 30 years) and I am slowly assembling my collection 
> of test equipment here at home, purely for fun.
> 
> This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an 
> inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source) 
> for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc and was 
> wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a similar unit.  
> I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short & long term accuracy 
> and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have access to any accurate 
> (known) frequency sources like I did while employed and I do not think I have 
> the equipment here at home to measure my unit myself.
> 
> Gedas, W8BYA
> 
> Gallery at http://w8bya.com
> Light travels faster than sound
> This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Hal Murray]

w8...@mchsi.com said:
> This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an
> inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined
> Source) for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc  and
> was wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a  similar
> unit.  I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short &  long term
> accuracy and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have  access to any
> accurate (known) frequency sources like I did while  employed and I do not
> think I have the equipment here at home to measure  my unit myself. 

Long term accuracy will be very good - you are tracking GPS.

You didn't say anything about your antenna.  That's probably the major 
contributor to your short term accuracy.

Google found:
  http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bg7tbl-gpsdo-master-reference/
Looks like there are various versions.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Joseph Gray]

There is a long thread over on the EEVblog forum about the various
versions made by BG7TBL. You can match the date and pictures with what
you have.

Joe Gray
W5JG


On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Gedas  wrote:
> Hello to the group. I am a new member and 1st wanted to say hello. I also
> wanted to say that I have been reading, with great interest, most of the
> posts here for the last 2-3 weeks.  I must say, I am quite ignorant of the
> majority of the information & terms being passed back and forth so this is a
> neat learning experience for me. I am a retired EE (had a prior life in the
> TEMPEST community for over 30 years) and I am slowly assembling my
> collection of test equipment here at home, purely for fun.
>
> This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an
> inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined
> Source) for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc and
> was wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a similar
> unit.  I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short & long term
> accuracy and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have access to any
> accurate (known) frequency sources like I did while employed and I do not
> think I have the equipment here at home to measure my unit myself.
>
> Gedas, W8BYA
>
> Gallery at http://w8bya.com
> Light travels faster than sound
> This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
>
>
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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[time-nuts] BG7TBL GPS Disciplined Source

[Gedas]

Hello to the group. I am a new member and 1st wanted to say hello. I 
also wanted to say that I have been reading, with great interest, most 
of the posts here for the last 2-3 weeks.  I must say, I am quite 
ignorant of the majority of the information & terms being passed back 
and forth so this is a neat learning experience for me. I am a retired 
EE (had a prior life in the TEMPEST community for over 30 years) and I 
am slowly assembling my collection of test equipment here at home, 
purely for fun.


This is where I really embarrass myself.sometime ago I purchased an 
inexpensive 10 MHz GPS based reference source (BG7TBL GPS Disciplined 
Source) for my various counters, transceivers, spectrum analyzers, etc 
and was wondering if it was a good purchase and if anyone else used a 
similar unit.  I guess in the end I am curious to know what the short & 
long term accuracy and stability of my unit may be?  I no longer have 
access to any accurate (known) frequency sources like I did while 
employed and I do not think I have the equipment here at home to measure 
my unit myself.


Gedas, W8BYA

Gallery at http://w8bya.com
Light travels faster than sound
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.


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