Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 11/13/2017 02:23 PM, jimlux wrote:

On 11/12/17 10:22 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi Don,

Hardly. As long as you do GPS L1 C/A code only, chanses you get any 
useful improvement isn't all that great. SBAS may help you some thought.





the new L1C code plus increase in radiated power might help


The L1C code is something different than L1 C/A, so it help to some degree.

Better handling of ionospheric delay than standard L1 C/A code tracking 
do would do quite a bit more.


L2C and L5 would be useful. Doing the same for other GNSS too.

As for increased radiated power, we already have that. It's been a 
resident capability of Block IIR, or at least later in the series, and 
was turned on for a test. The impact have been somewhat better precision 
but not any bad issues that I've heard of.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Bob Camp]

Hi

There are papers from ION and other places detailing testing on the 
new(er) clocks. They do have quite good ADEV performance. If they 
start showing up on eBay, expect a bidding war ….

The most useful thing for an L1 user is getting the added bits into the
datastream for the epoch. That (plus ground firmware changes) will 
get rid of our roll over issues. Not much help for older product though. 

Bob

> On Nov 12, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Don  wrote:
> 
> 
> I read where the first GPS III satellite had finally been approved for
> flight. 
> 
> 
> The report said they will provide three times better location accuracy
> than current GPS.
> 
> Will  "better" onboard clocks help contribute to this improvement?  How
> are they "better"?
> 
> Can we expect enhanced timing accuracy from the timing receivers we use
> in our homemade GPSDO's?.
> 
> -Don
>  N5CID
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[jimlux]

On 11/12/17 10:22 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi Don,

Hardly. As long as you do GPS L1 C/A code only, chanses you get any 
useful improvement isn't all that great. SBAS may help you some thought.





the new L1C code plus increase in radiated power might help

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Don,

Hardly. As long as you do GPS L1 C/A code only, chanses you get any 
useful improvement isn't all that great. SBAS may help you some thought.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/13/2017 05:35 AM, Don wrote:


I read where the first GPS III satellite had finally been approved for
flight.


The report said they will provide three times better location accuracy
than current GPS.

Will  "better" onboard clocks help contribute to this improvement?  How
are they "better"?

Can we expect enhanced timing accuracy from the timing receivers we use
in our homemade GPSDO's?.

-Don
  N5CID
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[time-nuts] GPS III

[Don]

I read where the first GPS III satellite had finally been approved for
flight. 


The report said they will provide three times better location accuracy
than current GPS.

Will  "better" onboard clocks help contribute to this improvement?  How
are they "better"?

Can we expect enhanced timing accuracy from the timing receivers we use
in our homemade GPSDO's?.

-Don
 N5CID
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The antenna is a pretty standard ceramic patch. No better (or worse) than any 
other patch. No idea how quiet the preamp is or even if there is one. The uBlox 
receiver is very good for sensitivity. 

Bob

On Jul 24, 2014, at 9:44 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote:

 How good is the built-in antenna?  Do they work well in doors away from 
 windows?
 
 The $15 price, low power and 2.5 meter CEP are attractive.   They are
 1/2 the price of something else I was looking at.  I'd be using them
 for navigation, not timing.
 
 On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 Hi
 
 If you go looking for them on the auction sites, the RYN25DI from Reyax is 
 the search item for the RS-232 version. The RYN25AI is the search item for 
 the not RS-232 version.
 
 Bob
 
 On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
 I have purchased about a dozen of these receivers (mostly the RS-232 
 version for $1 more).   Reyax ships very fast.  I get them in about 1 week.
 They work well,  and are based upon the Ublox MAX-7C.  They output 
 independent GPS and Glonass NMEA messages and don't appear to merge the two 
 systems in their navigation solutions.  I have not done any testing of the 
 1PPS signal (which is brought out to the connector).
 --
 On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15
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 -- 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Jason Rabel]

 I have purchased about a dozen of these receivers 
 (mostly the RS-232 version for $1 more).   Reyax 
 ships very fast.  I get them in about 1 week.
 They work well,  and are based upon the Ublox MAX-7C. 
 They output independent GPS and Glonass NMEA messages 
 and don't appear to merge the two systems in their
 navigation solutions.  I have not done any testing 
 of the 1PPS signal (which is brought out to the connector).

I bought a couple too. After trying to figure out how to enable both I
did some reading and discovered that only one can be enabled at a time.
It's not until their 8-series that both can be enabled simultaneously.

Kind of a let down, but still cool to dabble with GLONASS.

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[time-nuts] GPS-III

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

Does anyone know yet of any companies that are making GPS-III receiver
chip-sets/modules yet?

Some web-sites on GPS-III:

http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/
http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/civilsignals/
http://www.losangeles.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=18830

Regards,
John W.
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 00:14:10 -0700
John C. Westmoreland, P.E. j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:

 Does anyone know yet of any companies that are making GPS-III receiver
 chip-sets/modules yet?

Do you mean a L1 C/A / L2C receiver? I am not aware of any.
AFAIK all dual band receiver are multichip solutions (ie multiple
receiver chips, one for each band). Which makes those rather espensive
for the very cost sensitive consumer market.

Also, if i am not mistaken, only the Block IIM and Block IIF carry
the L2C already (ie 14 satellites). I.e. coverage of that signal
is not complete.

The launch date of the first Block III has been pushed back more than
once. It was meant to be somewhen this year, but i don't know what
the current launch date is projected to be.

Attila Kinali

-- 
I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
-- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Chris Albertson]

GPS-III is the wrong term.   You mean block three spacecraft.
The Air Force is buying 8 new satellites they are calling block III
and they don't launch until at least 2016.  If the current satellites
are in good health they could delay the launch.   If the past is a
guide to the future the AirForce will eventually buy more advanced
block III called IIIa or something.As a GPS users you'd never
really know.  Those numbers are contracting terms, not signal terms.
The signals in question are already being transmitted by a few of the
latter block II satellites.

I think you can buy multi-frequency receivers.  Remember GPS is not
longer the only system.  There are stelites from the US, Europe,
Russia, China and Japan.Adding more more frequencies allows the
receiver to detect multi path and makes it harder to jam but the
timing is not greatly improved over say the M12.

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:14 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E.
j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:
 Hello All,

 Does anyone know yet of any companies that are making GPS-III receiver
 chip-sets/modules yet?

 Some web-sites on GPS-III:

 http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/
 http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/civilsignals/
 http://www.losangeles.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=18830

 Regards,
 John W.
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Michael Perrett]

Chris,
I disagree only with your statement as a  GPS user you'd never know.

As stated in one of John's references:

The government is in the process of fielding three new signals designed for
civilian use: L2C, L5, and L1C. The legacy civil signal, called L1 C/A or
C/A at L1, will continue broadcasting in the future, for a total of four
civil GPS signals. Users must upgrade their equipment to benefit from the
new signals.


These new signals (will) provide many advantages as seen by the civilian
user, one of the most obvious is the ability to make real time IONO
corrections on civilian receivers (currently restricted to P Code
receivers). Also the new signal structures are more tolerant of both
intended and unintended interference.

Michael
Raytheon Senior Fellow (retired)
Navigation Systems





On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
wrote:

 GPS-III is the wrong term.   You mean block three spacecraft.
 The Air Force is buying 8 new satellites they are calling block III
 and they don't launch until at least 2016.  If the current satellites
 are in good health they could delay the launch.   If the past is a
 guide to the future the AirForce will eventually buy more advanced
 block III called IIIa or something.As a GPS users you'd never
 really know.  Those numbers are contracting terms, not signal terms.
 The signals in question are already being transmitted by a few of the
 latter block II satellites.

 I think you can buy multi-frequency receivers.  Remember GPS is not
 longer the only system.  There are stelites from the US, Europe,
 Russia, China and Japan.Adding more more frequencies allows the
 receiver to detect multi path and makes it harder to jam but the
 timing is not greatly improved over say the M12.

 On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:14 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E.
 j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:
  Hello All,
 
  Does anyone know yet of any companies that are making GPS-III receiver
  chip-sets/modules yet?
 
  Some web-sites on GPS-III:
 
  http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/
  http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/civilsignals/
  http://www.losangeles.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=18830
 
  Regards,
  John W.
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 --

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Hal Murray]

 I think you can buy multi-frequency receivers.  Remember GPS is not longer
 the only system.  There are stelites from the US, Europe, Russia, China and
 Japan.Adding more more frequencies allows the receiver to detect multi
 path and makes it harder to jam but the timing is not greatly improved over
 say the M12. 

The main source of error for GPS systems is the delay through the ionosphere. 
 That delay is frequency dependent, so you can do a (much?) better job of 
correcting for that delay if you can get data from a satellite on 2 (or more) 
frequencies.

I think GLONASS and Galileo use frequencies very close to GPS.  The hardware 
in low cost GPS systems will work with no or minimal changes.  It's mostly 
software to take advantage of  the other satellites.  But adding them to your 
bag of tricks won't help the ionospheric corrections.

The extra satellites might help if you are in a place where you can't see 
many GPS satellites.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Al Wolfe]

   On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15 and $1 for shipping 
from Taiwan. Supposedly, it does GPS and Glonass. There is a link to a data 
sheet there as well. Might be interesting to play with one and compare the 
results. Stick it in a Tupperware box and nail it to a fence post.


Al, k9si 


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:30:07 -0700
Michael Perrett mkperr...@gmail.com wrote:

 The government is in the process of fielding three new signals designed for
 civilian use: L2C, L5, and L1C. The legacy civil signal, called L1 C/A or
 C/A at L1, will continue broadcasting in the future, for a total of four
 civil GPS signals. Users must upgrade their equipment to benefit from the
 new signals.

Side note: L1C and L5 will only be available with Block III satellites.
(ie. not before 201x, and even then only one or two satellites)
L2C is available with Block IIM and IIF (13 satellites)

 
 These new signals (will) provide many advantages as seen by the civilian
 user, one of the most obvious is the ability to make real time IONO
 corrections on civilian receivers (currently restricted to P Code
 receivers). 

L1/L2 receivers already exist for civilan use and have been for
some time. The P(Y) code does not need to be decoded for tracking
the signal. This is known as codless tracking.

Attila Kinali

-- 
I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
-- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Edesio Costa e Silva]

Try http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/. A bit more expensive ($25) but comes
with a processor embedded. There is also a GPS+Beidou flavor.

Edésio

(sorry if duplicated)

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 05:10:35PM -0500, Al Wolfe wrote:
On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15 and $1 for
 shipping from Taiwan. Supposedly, it does GPS and Glonass. There is
 a link to a data sheet there as well. Might be interesting to play
 with one and compare the results. Stick it in a Tupperware box and
 nail it to a fence post.
 
 Al, k9si
 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-III

[Edesio Costa e Silva]

Hi!

Try http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/. A bit more expensive ($25) but comes
with a processor embedded. There is also a GPS+Beidou flavor.

Edésio

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 05:10:35PM -0500, Al Wolfe wrote:
On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15 and $1 for
 shipping from Taiwan. Supposedly, it does GPS and Glonass. There is
 a link to a data sheet there as well. Might be interesting to play
 with one and compare the results. Stick it in a Tupperware box and
 nail it to a fence post.
 
 Al, k9si
 
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[time-nuts] GPS III

[Mark Sims]

I have purchased about a dozen of these receivers (mostly the RS-232 version 
for $1 more).   Reyax ships very fast.  I get them in about 1 week.
They work well,  and are based upon the Ublox MAX-7C.  They output independent 
GPS and Glonass NMEA messages and don't appear to merge the two systems in 
their navigation solutions.  I have not done any testing of the 1PPS signal 
(which is brought out to the connector).
--
 On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15  
  
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you go looking for them on the auction sites, the RYN25DI from Reyax is the 
search item for the RS-232 version. The RYN25AI is the search item for the not 
RS-232 version. 

Bob

On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I have purchased about a dozen of these receivers (mostly the RS-232 version 
 for $1 more).   Reyax ships very fast.  I get them in about 1 week.
 They work well,  and are based upon the Ublox MAX-7C.  They output 
 independent GPS and Glonass NMEA messages and don't appear to merge the two 
 systems in their navigation solutions.  I have not done any testing of the 
 1PPS signal (which is brought out to the connector).
 --
 On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15 
   
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Chris Albertson]

How good is the built-in antenna?  Do they work well in doors away from windows?

The $15 price, low power and 2.5 meter CEP are attractive.   They are
1/2 the price of something else I was looking at.  I'd be using them
for navigation, not timing.

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 Hi

 If you go looking for them on the auction sites, the RYN25DI from Reyax is 
 the search item for the RS-232 version. The RYN25AI is the search item for 
 the not RS-232 version.

 Bob

 On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I have purchased about a dozen of these receivers (mostly the RS-232 version 
 for $1 more).   Reyax ships very fast.  I get them in about 1 week.
 They work well,  and are based upon the Ublox MAX-7C.  They output 
 independent GPS and Glonass NMEA messages and don't appear to merge the two 
 systems in their navigation solutions.  I have not done any testing of the 
 1PPS signal (which is brought out to the connector).
 --
 On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS III

[Alexander Pummer]

I received a little package with a GPS receiver + antenna from Gentleman 
[H6m] and I would like to tel him thank you very much

73
KJ6UHN
Alex


On 7/24/2014 5:57 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If you go looking for them on the auction sites, the RYN25DI from Reyax is the 
search item for the RS-232 version. The RYN25AI is the search item for the not 
RS-232 version.

Bob

On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote:


I have purchased about a dozen of these receivers (mostly the RS-232 version 
for $1 more).   Reyax ships very fast.  I get them in about 1 week.
They work well,  and are based upon the Ublox MAX-7C.  They output independent 
GPS and Glonass NMEA messages and don't appear to merge the two systems in 
their navigation solutions.  I have not done any testing of the 1PPS signal 
(which is brought out to the connector).
--
On eBay the RNY25A1 receiver module sells for $15   

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[time-nuts] GPS III

[Mark Sims]

They seem to do pretty well.  I have mine in devices sitting on my kitchen 
floor.  It is downstairs in a stucco over wire mesh house.  Nearest window/door 
is 20 feet away... and it is shaded by a stainless steel covered bridge to the 
guest house.  Also lots of stainless in the kitchen...  they are sandwiched in 
an isle between a pair large SubZero fridge/freezers one one side og the isle 
and a center island clad in stainless.I can take them a few minutes to acquire 
down there and they occasionally lose lock (mainly late at night when the 
geometry/coverage is bad).  I think the NEO-6M receivers may be a tiny bit 
better about acquiring signals.  
-
How good is the built-in antenna?  Do they work well in doors away from windows?

  
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