Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

Update: The 4011s arrived in good condition. The sockets arrived today 
(I ordered a whole bunch with various numbers of machined pins as Tom 
Miller recommended). All the sockets were of the "good" kind except for 
the 14-pin sockets, which were the cheap kind in accord with Murphy's 
Law. :-(


Pause while I get the right kind of 14-pin socket.

Jeremy

On 4/4/2017 11:52 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for your inputs. I've ordered some NOS 4011s (made 
by National Semi, mildly ironic since I used to work there) and some 
supposedly round pin sockets (the reviews were mixed—some folks got 
good stuff, some got junk).


I'll update the thread once I have everything here and installed.

Jeremy


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:01 PM Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net 
<mailto:tmiller11...@verizon.net>> wrote:


Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the
non-replaceable PC board.

- Original Message -
From: "David C. Partridge" <david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk
<mailto:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
<time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>>
    Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


> You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers
at about
> 15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.
>
> Dave
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
<mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> Nichols
> Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
    > To: time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
>
> I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock
works on both
> the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard
> (GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats
without
> updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW)
push-buttons work
> but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only
seconds. The
> DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other
> switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my
10526T
> logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.
> The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
> components) and I see no other problems (yet).
>
> Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me
to U3 on
> the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a
14-pin DIP
> package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes
counter and
> appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list
> <hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com>> commented that the
4000 series CMOS
> chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no
longer in
> production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I
might find
> to buy may be DOA.
>
> Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from
anyone in the
> group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the
4000-series CMOS
> family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011
chip? If
> the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a
substitute.
>
> Jeremy, N6WFO
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, everyone, for your inputs. I've ordered some NOS 4011s (made by
National Semi, mildly ironic since I used to work there) and some
supposedly round pin sockets (the reviews were mixed—some folks got good
stuff, some got junk).

I'll update the thread once I have everything here and installed.

Jeremy


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:01 PM Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the
> non-replaceable PC board.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David C. Partridge" <david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
>
>
> > You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about
> > 15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> > Nichols
> > Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
> >
> > I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both
> > the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard
> > (GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without
> > updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons
> work
> > but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The
> > DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other
> > switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T
> > logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.
> > The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
> > components) and I see no other problems (yet).
> >
> > Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on
> > the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP
> > package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and
> > appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list
> > <hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series
> CMOS
> > chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in
> > production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find
> > to buy may be DOA.
> >
> > Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the
> > group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series
> CMOS
> > family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If
> > the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
> >
> > Jeremy, N6WFO
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Mark Sims]

I have dozens of thingies with 4000 series CMOS in them.   Yes, chips can fail 
regardless of the logic family type.  I have not noticed anything particularly 
bad about 4000 series.  In fact, I have seldom needed to replace any.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Tom Miller]

Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the 
non-replaceable PC board.


- Original Message - 
From: "David C. Partridge" <david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about 
15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.


Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Nichols

Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both 
the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard 
(GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without 
updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work 
but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The 
DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other 
switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T 
logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.

The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
components) and I see no other problems (yet).

Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
<hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find 
to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If 
the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Tom Miller]

4000 series logic is just fine. Just replace the original parts with like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CD4011CN-CMOS-Quad-2-Input-NAND-Gate-5-pcs-/272579598216?hash=item3f77029788:m:mSmV7o8qfGTPl04DaSu3DSw

Regards


- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Nichols" <jn6...@gmail.com>

To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 7:43 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both 
the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO). 
However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the 
minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again, 
the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET 
procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and 
buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can 
force the minutes and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good 
condition (after replacement of a few components) and I see no other 
problems (yet).


Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
<hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find 
to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If 
the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Scott McGrath]

A 4011 is an inexpensive part,   Mouser still carries them,   I would NOT buy a 
chinese part.  Generally ESD mishandling is the cause of short component life

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Apr 3, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both the 
> internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO). 
> However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the 
> minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again, the 
> count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET procedure 
> works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and buttons do 
> what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can force the 
> minutes and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good condition 
> (after replacement of a few components) and I see no other problems (yet).
> 
> Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on the 
> A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP package. 
> It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and appears to have 
> failed. One of the people on the email list 
>  commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
> chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
> production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find to 
> buy may be DOA.
> 
> Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
> group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
> family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If the 
> 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
> 
> Jeremy, N6WFO
> 
> 
> ___
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[time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Mark Sims]

You can get 10 CD4011's shipped f rom China for $1 off of Ebay...
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds, HEF4011

[Alex Pummer]

NOt pin-compatible but functional compatible and available is the 74C00 
or74 HC00, which has a long life I am using one in my gate alarm 
since1989, it is on all the time and the chip is available the HEF4011 
is also available -- at Mouser -- it is pin-compatible and function  
with CD4011 ad it is made by Philips [NXP]


73

KJ6UHN

Alex


On 4/3/2017 4:43 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on 
both the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz 
standard (GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then 
repeats without updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and 
SLOW) push-buttons work but again, the count will not update minutes 
and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET procedure works correctly for 
days and months. All the other switches and buttons do what they are 
supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can force the minutes 
and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good condition 
(after replacement of a few components) and I see no other problems 
(yet).


Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 
on the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 
14-pin DIP package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes 
counter and appears to have failed. One of the people on the email 
list  commented that the 4000 
series CMOS chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are 
no longer in production, the writer expressed the concern that any 
parts I might find to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in 
the group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 
4000-series CMOS family. In particular, are there modern equivalents 
to my 4011 chip? If the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd 
rather use a substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.8012 / Virus Database: 4769/14231 - Release Date: 
04/03/17


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Tim Shoppa]

CMOS availability has held up pretty well because of its wide voltage
range. Mouser has over eleven thousand CD4011BE's in stock:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/CD4011BE/

I can't rule out an old logic gate dying, but I would suspect this first:
Some clocks were made or modified to be tied to external minute and/or hour
synchronization pulses and these inputs can hold and jam zeroes into the
minute and hour counters.

Tim N3QE

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both
> the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO).
> However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the
> minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again,
> the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET
> procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and
> buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can
> force the minutes and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good
> condition (after replacement of a few components) and I see no other
> problems (yet).
>
> Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on
> the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP
> package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and
> appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list <
> hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series CMOS
> chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in
> production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find to
> buy may be DOA.
>
> Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the
> group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS
> family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If the
> 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
>
> Jeremy, N6WFO
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

A lot of the early IC’s were packaged in the era of “learning by doing”. The
net result is that some of them do indeed have process related packaging 
“use by dates”. On top of that the early IC processes were not as fully 
worked out as the more modern ones. Things like metallization thickness 
turned out to be on the skimpy side in some cases. The other nail in the 
coffin is input and output protection. The hazards of ESD and device upset
were not handled as rigorously early on.  The net result is that depending on 
*any* IC that dates back ~30 years is a bit of a gamble. 

Bob



> On Apr 3, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both the 
> internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO). 
> However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the 
> minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again, the 
> count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET procedure 
> works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and buttons do 
> what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can force the 
> minutes and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good condition 
> (after replacement of a few components) and I see no other problems (yet).
> 
> Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on the 
> A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP package. 
> It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and appears to have 
> failed. One of the people on the email list 
>  commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
> chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
> production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find to 
> buy may be DOA.
> 
> Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
> group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
> family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If the 
> 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
> 
> Jeremy, N6WFO
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jim Harman]

The 14SO package is still in production, HEF4011B $0.37 ea from Digikey.
You should be able to get a breakout adapter if you need the DIP.

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both
> the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO).
> However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the
> minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again,
> the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET
> procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and
> buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can
> force the minutes and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good
> condition (after replacement of a few components) and I see no other
> problems (yet).
>
> Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on
> the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP
> package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and
> appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list <
> hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series CMOS
> chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in
> production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find to
> buy may be DOA.
>
> Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the
> group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS
> family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If the
> 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
>
> Jeremy, N6WFO
>
>
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>



-- 

--Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[David C. Partridge]

You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about 15 
cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Nichols
Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both the 
internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO). 
However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the 
minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again, the 
count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET procedure 
works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and buttons do what 
they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can force the minutes 
and hours counters to work. 
The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
components) and I see no other problems (yet).

Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on the A4 
board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP package. It 
"connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and appears to have 
failed. One of the people on the email list 
<hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find to buy 
may be DOA.

Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the group 
who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS family. In 
particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If the 4000's really 
do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.

Jeremy, N6WFO


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[time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on 
both the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard 
(GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without 
updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons 
work but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only 
seconds. The DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All 
the other switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 
10526T logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work. 
The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few 
components) and I see no other problems (yet).


Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
 commented that the 4000 series 
CMOS chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no 
longer in production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I 
might find to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series 
CMOS family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 
chip? If the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a 
substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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