Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
Interested in photos when you get around to it Stan-no hurry. You certainly have a great collection of counters there. For those interested this site has a lot of older HP catalogs on line-more stuff being added all the time-the HP Journals are being worked on at present. http://www.hparchive.com/ DaveB, NZ - Original Message - From: Stan Searing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent Hi Dave and the rest of the group, My worst hobby is collecting old HP counters (the collection takes up a lot of space). Most are Nixie, some vertical bar and a couple have meters for the bottom two digits, while a few are new enough to have LEDs or VFDs. If you are still interested in pictures, one of these years I will get around to restoring some of these counters and taking pictures. If you want a couple pictures sooner, let me know. I have a few non-HP counters (Beckman, etc.) but didn't dig them out. Here is the HP list (listed in the order I found them around the house and at work): qty model 6 5245L 1 5245L specif H96 4 5245M 1 5246L 1 5280A Reversible Counter 3 5360A Computing Counter 1 5332B 2 5316A 2 5232A 1 5275A Time Interval Counter 2 5330B 1 5223L 1 5326B 1 5326A 1 5326C 2 5321A 1 5323A 1 5325B 2 5532A (odd that these start with 55) 2 5233L 1 5212A 1 523DR 1 523D 1 Specif 94427 (like a 4 digit 523D) 1 FR-38 D/U (like a 524B) 1 521C 1 524B 1 5345A 2 5328A 1 53131A 2 5315B 1 5315A 1 53?? (yeah, I forgot to write down all of the number of this one :-( These are mostly collected one at a time over the last ten years or so. I have a goodly stack of manuals for the HP counters, but don't have them for all the models included above. Some of the manuals have a black and white picture. I am still adding to the collection, but for the most part the counters are not worth shipping (but the manuals are). So if anyone has any old HP counters in the San Jose area they do not want, please let me know. If you have other HP counter related trivia, stories, pictures, etc, I may eventually get around to creating a web site for these. Of course you can't just collect counters, so I also have a handful of standards, clocks and DVM's from the good old days. Cheers, Stan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Brown Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 2:32 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent Looking to get good colour photos of some of these older HP counters (and similar offerings from other manufacturers) in the pre/early Nixie etc period. If you have anything available would appreciate direct email of same. Thanks Dave Brown, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/340 - Release Date: 15/05/2006 ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 13/07/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/389 - Release Date: 14/07/2006 ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
Hi Dave and the rest of the group, My worst hobby is collecting old HP counters (the collection takes up a lot of space). Most are Nixie, some vertical bar and a couple have meters for the bottom two digits, while a few are new enough to have LEDs or VFDs. If you are still interested in pictures, one of these years I will get around to restoring some of these counters and taking pictures. If you want a couple pictures sooner, let me know. I have a few non-HP counters (Beckman, etc.) but didn't dig them out. Here is the HP list (listed in the order I found them around the house and at work): qty model 6 5245L 1 5245L specif H96 4 5245M 1 5246L 1 5280A Reversible Counter 3 5360A Computing Counter 1 5332B 2 5316A 2 5232A 1 5275A Time Interval Counter 2 5330B 1 5223L 1 5326B 1 5326A 1 5326C 2 5321A 1 5323A 1 5325B 2 5532A (odd that these start with 55) 2 5233L 1 5212A 1 523DR 1 523D 1 Specif 94427 (like a 4 digit 523D) 1 FR-38 D/U (like a 524B) 1 521C 1 524B 1 5345A 2 5328A 1 53131A 2 5315B 1 5315A 1 53?? (yeah, I forgot to write down all of the number of this one :-( These are mostly collected one at a time over the last ten years or so. I have a goodly stack of manuals for the HP counters, but don't have them for all the models included above. Some of the manuals have a black and white picture. I am still adding to the collection, but for the most part the counters are not worth shipping (but the manuals are). So if anyone has any old HP counters in the San Jose area they do not want, please let me know. If you have other HP counter related trivia, stories, pictures, etc, I may eventually get around to creating a web site for these. Of course you can't just collect counters, so I also have a handful of standards, clocks and DVM's from the good old days. Cheers, Stan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Brown Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 2:32 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent Looking to get good colour photos of some of these older HP counters (and similar offerings from other manufacturers) in the pre/early Nixie etc period. If you have anything available would appreciate direct email of same. Thanks Dave Brown, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/340 - Release Date: 15/05/2006 ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
No, I have a HP 521C which comes with the HP 521A-59B crystal oscillator plugin module, but the HP 521A has it as an option. The HP 521C also have an additional counting row and an additional step in the timebase. Actually, you can supply it with an external time base of any of the frequencies 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 or 100 cps. The service manual is available on BAMA, I did the DJVU formating. A 521C, wow, I don't have any data handy but it goes to what, 100kHz? My first counter was a 524B as I recall - the plug-in version of the 524A. It still had the column of neons indicators, but I can recall if it had the meters at the top end. Eventually I got a 524C (or D?) and a selection of plug-ins. I had a couple of video amplifier plug-ins and ripped the guts out of one to put a 150MHz prescaler in there as I recall. I was playing a lot with 10-12GHz at the time and I had a 540B transfer oscillator as well. That and the 851/8551B spectrum analyser ensured that I had a well warmed, and very noisy, lab. Hmm... (looking in HP540B manual), must have been lovely in its time. It was, but you realise now just how much work we had to do to measure anything! After using the 540B, the 5257 seemed a delight, then the 5345/5355/5356 combination we were suddenly freed from having to adjust anything. For some reason I never had a 5340 which would have been nice in its day. Of course the 851/8551 analyser was another challenge. You always had to keep a camera swinging from the tube escutcheon because your display would be what you wanted for such a little time! Good that you where warm and awake... :P Eventually I got a 5245L and a Dymec 2590B which was supplanted for my uses when I got the 5257 (I think it was, 18GHz transfer oscillator). A 431C and a 434A along with the 600 series monstrous klystron generators rounded out the lab.. It was truly wonderful when the 141T system, the 5345A and the 432C came along! Especially with the 8600 generators including of course the 8640B. Thanks for the reminiscences guys! Theres a journey. So far I keep quite low frequencies. I can hit 2 GHz with my current rig, 1.3 GHz until I got my latest counter. I don't fool around at such high frequencies... or wait... I just realize that I do :P Haven't worked in microwaves since 1999. In fact sold all of my personal gear - I can generate up to 1.3GHz, count to 350MHz and analyse up to 40MHz these days. The real difference was in my last job. I was working on 23/24GHz link designs and we had an 8563 or 64 with the 26.5GHz tracking generator. A Gigatronics synth and a 438 power meter. And that was all! Even more unrealistic was that was all we needed! I could have fit all the gear in the trunk of my car and taken it home. How things changed over that period. John Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
Good suggestion Dave. It would be nice just to see some of that gear again! Of course, you need a darned good air conditioner if you are going to use any of it. John At 05:31 PM 5/16/2006, you wrote: Looking to get good colour photos of some of these older HP counters (and similar offerings from other manufacturers) in the pre/early Nixie etc period. If you have anything available would appreciate direct email of same. Thanks Dave Brown, NZ ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
Hi... I remember having seen an interesting analog counter/frequency divider using charge pumps and unijunction transistors in a watchmaker's mechanical watch adjusting machine. ( i don't remember the machine's name, but it is used to adjust the oscillator's (balance wheel/hairspring) frequency. The interesting part was that the unijunctions worked in a charge pump fashion rather than an RC time constant fashion. This way, at least theorically (i never tried it), the counter could be used with a variable frequency source. The principle is simple: The unijunction transistor is used in it's traditional relaxation oscillator circuit, except that there's no pullup resistor between the unijunction's emitter and supply line. The Emitter-ground capacitor is charged by another (smaller) capacitor through a series diode an a calibrated voltage pulse. This way, at each input pulse, the capacitor is charged with a fixed (predetermined) voltage increment. After 'n' pulses, when the emitter reaches the discharge voltage, the UJT fires and sends an output pulse. (If one watches the emitter voltage with a scope, he will see a staircase waveform). The interesting part is that the voltage increment remains fixed, regardless of the pulse's duration or frequency (up to a certain extent...). I know, it's hard to describe the circuit with words, but if i find the schematic, i'll find a way to send it here. Have a good day! Normand Martel Montreal, Qc. Canada __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
[time-nuts] Interesting Patent
Hi: I came across a 1946 patent for a vacuum tube based counter circuit that will divide 60 Hz down to 1 Hz. It's interesting in that there's a discussion about the advantage of using binary instead of base 10 and also about using feedback to change the scale of the counter from 64 to 60 (or 50). See: 2410156 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=2410156 Electronic Timing Device, Oct. 29, 1946, 368/58 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=0f=Sl=50TERM1=368%2F58FIELD1=ORCLco1=ANDTERM2=FIELD2=d=pall; 327/118 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=0f=Sl=50TERM1=327%2F118FIELD1=ORCLco1=ANDTERM2=FIELD2=d=pall; 340/332 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=0f=Sl=50TERM1=340%2F332FIELD1=ORCLco1=ANDTERM2=FIELD2=d=pall; 968/564 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=0f=Sl=50TERM1=968%2F564FIELD1=ORCLco1=ANDTERM2=FIELD2=d=pall; 968/946 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=0f=Sl=50TERM1=968%2F946FIELD1=ORCLco1=ANDTERM2=FIELD2=d=pall; 968/DIG.1 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=0f=Sl=50TERM1=968%2FDIG.1FIELD1=ORCLco1=ANDTERM2=FIELD2=d=pall- There's reference to using gas discharge tubes as indicators on one of the tubes in each trigger circuit (flip-flop) which means a neon tube. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke -- w/Java http://www.PRC68.com w/o Java http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/PRC68COM.shtml http://www.precisionclock.com ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
At 11:20 AM 5/16/2006 , Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: I came across a 1946 patent for a vacuum tube based counter circuit that will divide 60 Hz down to 1 Hz. It's interesting in that there's a discussion about the advantage of using binary instead of base 10 and also about using feedback to change the scale of the counter from 64 to 60 (or 50). See: Nice find. I find it easier to enter the patent number (2410156) into the free service at http://www.pat2pdf.org/ and download a single pdf. -- newell N5TNL ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent
From: Brooke Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting Patent Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:20:11 -0700 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi: I came across a 1946 patent for a vacuum tube based counter circuit that will divide 60 Hz down to 1 Hz. It's interesting in that there's a discussion about the advantage of using binary instead of base 10 and also about using feedback to change the scale of the counter from 64 to 60 (or 50). See: Hmm... strange... these applications are no match for the Phantastron divider, which Frederic Calland Williams invented in 1941. It did 1/5, 1/6 or 1/10 with a triode and a diode if memory serves me right. My oldest HP counter is virtually loaded with it, and it has a nice trimmer in the back for trimming the power grid frequency division for 1/6 or 1/5 to get the 10 Hz reference counter. However, mine is the de luxe variant with builtin timebase in the form of a 100 kHz crystal oscillator (whoa!) and then the phantastron is set for 1/10 division and is preceeded with 4 phantastrons to divide down from 100 kHz in nice 1/10 steps. Naturally there is two more for the 1 Hz and 0.1 Hz frequencies being used for gating time, so that one has 0.1 s, 1 s and 10 s gating time. Needless to say, it works splendid still today! Oh, my counter is so old that it doesn't have those novelties usually referred to as Nixie-tubes. Oh no, we talk good old neon lamps lighting up for 0 to 9 for each digit. You see how it counts as the numbers ripples. ;O) BTW, patent databases are wonderfull ways of learning the history, especially if one recalls that alot of things happend outside of the patent offices too. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
