Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Treating corporations as persons is hardly new. And money may not be speach, but it sure is a megaphone. -John > Five out of nine people believe money is free speech and a corporation is > a person. Well five conservative judges. ;-) > > -Original Message- > From: Perry Sandeen > Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:45:05 > To: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com > Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math > > List, > > Wrote "The nationwide LightSquared network, consisting of approximately > 40,000 cellular base stations, will cover 92 percent of the U.S. > population by 2015 > > You can make book the missing 8 percent will be areas that exclude the > farmers and ranchers who provide our food but the left will make sure the > always âfinancially challengedâ in the slums will have it and probably > for free. > > The proof? In every state in the US there is something called a universal > service fee on your phone bill. This is usually 35 to 45 cents. It is > not optional. The purpose of that fee is modeled after the postal system > that charges you the same amount whether one sends a letter 2 miles or > 2,000 miles so that everyone can economically communicate. > > By law the phone companies are given that money to provide the rural areas > with the same services that are offered in urban areas. This includes > broadband DSL and TV services. It has never happened and probably wonât > as we seem to have the best politicians money can buy. Iâm a > conservative and I have lived in two rural areas now and the story is the > same. AT&T continues to send me glowing adverts for bundled phone service > only. When I lived in a large town they came door to door trying to sign > people up for broadband and the regularly sent glowing adverts in my phone > bill to sign up for bundled phone, DSL broadband, and TV. > > This explains while they kept the lights on continuously at the Dallas > Cowboy stadium for the superbowel, they had 15 minute rolling blackouts to > all the area hospitals, nursing homes and elder care facilities where > residents rely on continued electrical service for their oxygen > concentrators and assisted breathing devices. > > Regards, > > Perrier > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Wow - yet another on-topic time-nuts discussion... Really guys? I mean REALLY? On Feb 4, 2011, at 8:30 AM, William H. Fite wrote: > True enough. And it certainly was not the left that condoned--or ever would > condone--leaving the stadium lights on while turning off power to hospitals > and nursing homes. > > Which didn't happen, by the way, but it makes a fantastic tale. And power * > did* roll off for virtually all non life-critical applications. > > > > > On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:32 AM, wrote: > >> Five out of nine people believe money is free speech and a corporation is a >> person. Well five conservative judges. ;-) >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Perry Sandeen >> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com >> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:45:05 >> To: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com >> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math >> >> List, >> >> Wrote "The nationwide LightSquared network, consisting of approximately >> 40,000 cellular base stations, will cover 92 percent of the U.S. population >> by 2015 >> >> You can make book the missing 8 percent will be areas that exclude the >> farmers and ranchers who provide our food but the left will make sure the >> always “financially challenged” in the slums will have it and probably for >> free. >> >> The proof? In every state in the US there is something called a universal >> service fee on your phone bill. This is usually 35 to 45 cents. It is not >> optional. The purpose of that fee is modeled after the postal system that >> charges you the same amount whether one sends a letter 2 miles or 2,000 >> miles so that everyone can economically communicate. >> >> By law the phone companies are given that money to provide the rural areas >> with the same services that are offered in urban areas. This includes >> broadband DSL and TV services. It has never happened and probably won’t as >> we seem to have the best politicians money can buy. I’m a conservative and >> I have lived in two rural areas now and the story is the same. AT&T >> continues to send me glowing adverts for bundled phone service only. When I >> lived in a large town they came door to door trying to sign people up for >> broadband and the regularly sent glowing adverts in my phone bill to sign up >> for bundled phone, DSL broadband, and TV. >> >> This explains while they kept the lights on continuously at the Dallas >> Cowboy stadium for the superbowel, they had 15 minute rolling blackouts to >> all the area hospitals, nursing homes and elder care facilities where >> residents rely on continued electrical service for their oxygen >> concentrators and assisted breathing devices. >> >> Regards, >> >> Perrier >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
True enough. And it certainly was not the left that condoned--or ever would condone--leaving the stadium lights on while turning off power to hospitals and nursing homes. Which didn't happen, by the way, but it makes a fantastic tale. And power * did* roll off for virtually all non life-critical applications. On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:32 AM, wrote: > Five out of nine people believe money is free speech and a corporation is a > person. Well five conservative judges. ;-) > > -Original Message- > From: Perry Sandeen > Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:45:05 > To: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com > Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math > > List, > > Wrote "The nationwide LightSquared network, consisting of approximately > 40,000 cellular base stations, will cover 92 percent of the U.S. population > by 2015 > > You can make book the missing 8 percent will be areas that exclude the > farmers and ranchers who provide our food but the left will make sure the > always “financially challenged” in the slums will have it and probably for > free. > > The proof? In every state in the US there is something called a universal > service fee on your phone bill. This is usually 35 to 45 cents. It is not > optional. The purpose of that fee is modeled after the postal system that > charges you the same amount whether one sends a letter 2 miles or 2,000 > miles so that everyone can economically communicate. > > By law the phone companies are given that money to provide the rural areas > with the same services that are offered in urban areas. This includes > broadband DSL and TV services. It has never happened and probably won’t as > we seem to have the best politicians money can buy. I’m a conservative and > I have lived in two rural areas now and the story is the same. AT&T > continues to send me glowing adverts for bundled phone service only. When I > lived in a large town they came door to door trying to sign people up for > broadband and the regularly sent glowing adverts in my phone bill to sign up > for bundled phone, DSL broadband, and TV. > > This explains while they kept the lights on continuously at the Dallas > Cowboy stadium for the superbowel, they had 15 minute rolling blackouts to > all the area hospitals, nursing homes and elder care facilities where > residents rely on continued electrical service for their oxygen > concentrators and assisted breathing devices. > > Regards, > > Perrier > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Five out of nine people believe money is free speech and a corporation is a person. Well five conservative judges. ;-) -Original Message- From: Perry Sandeen Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:45:05 To: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math List, Wrote "The nationwide LightSquared network, consisting of approximately 40,000 cellular base stations, will cover 92 percent of the U.S. population by 2015 You can make book the missing 8 percent will be areas that exclude the farmers and ranchers who provide our food but the left will make sure the always “financially challenged” in the slums will have it and probably for free. The proof? In every state in the US there is something called a universal service fee on your phone bill. This is usually 35 to 45 cents. It is not optional. The purpose of that fee is modeled after the postal system that charges you the same amount whether one sends a letter 2 miles or 2,000 miles so that everyone can economically communicate. By law the phone companies are given that money to provide the rural areas with the same services that are offered in urban areas. This includes broadband DSL and TV services. It has never happened and probably won’t as we seem to have the best politicians money can buy. I’m a conservative and I have lived in two rural areas now and the story is the same. AT&T continues to send me glowing adverts for bundled phone service only. When I lived in a large town they came door to door trying to sign people up for broadband and the regularly sent glowing adverts in my phone bill to sign up for bundled phone, DSL broadband, and TV. This explains while they kept the lights on continuously at the Dallas Cowboy stadium for the superbowel, they had 15 minute rolling blackouts to all the area hospitals, nursing homes and elder care facilities where residents rely on continued electrical service for their oxygen concentrators and assisted breathing devices. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
List, Wrote "The nationwide LightSquared network, consisting of approximately 40,000 cellular base stations, will cover 92 percent of the U.S. population by 2015 You can make book the missing 8 percent will be areas that exclude the farmers and ranchers who provide our food but the left will make sure the always “financially challenged” in the slums will have it and probably for free. The proof? In every state in the US there is something called a universal service fee on your phone bill. This is usually 35 to 45 cents. It is not optional. The purpose of that fee is modeled after the postal system that charges you the same amount whether one sends a letter 2 miles or 2,000 miles so that everyone can economically communicate. By law the phone companies are given that money to provide the rural areas with the same services that are offered in urban areas. This includes broadband DSL and TV services. It has never happened and probably won’t as we seem to have the best politicians money can buy. I’m a conservative and I have lived in two rural areas now and the story is the same. AT&T continues to send me glowing adverts for bundled phone service only. When I lived in a large town they came door to door trying to sign people up for broadband and the regularly sent glowing adverts in my phone bill to sign up for bundled phone, DSL broadband, and TV. This explains while they kept the lights on continuously at the Dallas Cowboy stadium for the superbowel, they had 15 minute rolling blackouts to all the area hospitals, nursing homes and elder care facilities where residents rely on continued electrical service for their oxygen concentrators and assisted breathing devices. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Mike wrote: Does anyone know the timing synchronization requirements for LTE? This network may offer a supplement to current GPS/CDMA based time solutions. It has been ages since I had day-to-day familiarity with the LTE documents, so I can't say off the top of my head. Here are a couple of places to start: http://www.3gpp.org/article/lte http://www.thespectool.com/3gpp/ Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
At 01:45 PM 2/2/2011, Chris Albertson wrote... On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: > The web site reads like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients: People will hate this service. Going up to geo-sync adds a noticeable and annoying lag do unavoidable speed of light round trip time of flight. Latency will only be an issue where service would otherwise be unavailable. Satellite latency is better than no connection at all. The bulk of their coverage is with terrestrial stations, but they also have a satellite to fill the gaps: "The nationwide LightSquared network, consisting of approximately 40,000 cellular base stations, will cover 92 percent of the U.S. population by 2015...LightSquared is using terrestrial and satellite technology to ensure constant connectivity, regardless of location. The LightSquared satellite, built by Boeing, was launched into geostationary orbit over North America in November 2010." Does anyone know the timing synchronization requirements for LTE? This network may offer a supplement to current GPS/CDMA based time solutions. (says I, trying to get this thread back to time-nuts) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
> In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because there > has been no engineering expertise or background at the Commission(er) level > since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was, but perhaps in the 1930s-'40s. > The FCC staff is supposed to provide engineering support, but Commissioners > often do not listen to the staff as carefully as they should and sometimes > the staff gets it wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include > at least one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has > enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level. The NTIA and technical folks I've worked with @ the FCC over the years have been fantastic. It's the translation of their recommendations to the Commissioner level where it gets tricky. Politics enters the equation and makes things icky to us engineering types. The fact that the commissioners have 5 year terms (unless, of course, they quit) and often have odd overlap with any political entities in charge of the white house or congress make it even ickier. Add in the position of chairman of the commission and the effect of that over the other Commissioners _and_ their fundamentally independent nature from each other, and the ickiness factor starts to go non linear. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Sorry, GPS L1 is, of course, 1575.42 MHz (or 1.57542 GHz).
Charles
Stanley wrote:
Wonder if the clients of this network reduce power as cell phones
do to increase battery life and reduce interference or they will
use a dish on the fixed clients, not that would help with
interference from the sat. The web site reads like the sat will
distribute the internet signal direct to the clients
The issue is not signals from satellites, which are very
weak. Satellite operators serving mobile and portable devices
(which generally cannot employ high-gain, narrow-beamwidth antennas
like the dish antennas used for stationary ("fixed," in FCC
parlance) satellite services such as direct-to-home television
reception) have found that there are significant coverage "holes"
and have asked the FCC to allow them to use an "ancillary
terrestrial component" ("ATC") -- i.e., base transcievers on towers,
like cellular base stations -- to cover the holes. The ATC rules,
as they are currently written, require the ATC component to be
ancillary to and integrated with a robust satellite system that is
available to all system users (the "integrated service" rule).
Even with ATC, the Mobile Satellite Service ("MSS") has never really
caught on, so it represents a fair chunk of spectrum getting very
little use. Some MSS providers seek to create primarily-terrestrial
systems with an essentially vestigial satellite component. The FCC
(in its National Broadband Plan -- see
http://www.broadband.gov/plan/) has started to move toward allowing
terrestrial-only services to operate on a co-primary basis with the
MSS on MSS spectrum, which has emboldened MSS
licensees. Lightsquared, which is an MSS licensee, petitioned for a
conditional waiver of the "integrated service" rule, which the FCC granted:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-11-133A1.pdf
One of the conditions imposed by the FCC was "the creation of a
process to address interference concerns regarding GPS and, further,
that this process must be completed to the Commission's satisfaction
before LightSquared commences offering commercial service, pursuant
to the approval of its request, on its L-Band MSS
frequencies." This process is expected to be completed within 90
days. See paragraphs 39-43 of the FCC order linked above.
So: The FCC seems determined to allow the expanded use of L-band
MSS frequencies for terrestrial use to deliver mobile broadband
services, and Lightsquared is just one company looking to
benefit. The primary threat to GPS (GPS L1 is 1575.42 GHz) is from
terrestrial base stations serving mobile devices and operating up to
1.559 GHz, although millions of mobile handsets operating between
1.6265 and 1.6605 GHz may also be a worry.
The FCC has made way more than its share of boneheaded technical
decisions over the decades (to name just the most visible tip of the
iceberg: NTSC, multiplexed FM stereo, NRSC preemphasis of AM
signals, AM stereo, forcing the switch to digital television, choice
of ATSC/8VSB as the digital television standard, choice of IBOC as
the AM/FM digital radio standard, etc., etc. -- and that's just in
the broadcast area). This time, it's a mad, desperate dash to find
500 MHz of spectrum usable for mobile broadband in the next 5 years.
In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because
there has been no engineering expertise or background at the
Commission(er) level since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was,
but perhaps in the 1930s-'40s. The FCC staff is supposed to provide
engineering support, but Commissioners often do not listen to the
staff as carefully as they should and sometimes the staff gets it
wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include at least
one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has
enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level.
Thus, the truth (at least as I see it) is much more complicated than
a simplistic conspiracy theory -- but then, it always is.
Best regards,
Charles
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Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Stanley wrote:
Wonder if the clients of this network reduce power as cell phones do
to increase battery life and reduce interference or they will use a
dish on the fixed clients, not that would help with interference
from the sat. The web site reads like the sat will distribute the
internet signal direct to the clients
The issue is not signals from satellites, which are very
weak. Satellite operators serving mobile and portable devices (which
generally cannot employ high-gain, narrow-beamwidth antennas like the
dish antennas used for stationary ("fixed," in FCC parlance)
satellite services such as direct-to-home television reception) have
found that there are significant coverage "holes" and have asked the
FCC to allow them to use an "ancillary terrestrial component" ("ATC")
-- i.e., base transcievers on towers, like cellular base stations --
to cover the holes. The ATC rules, as they are currently written,
require the ATC component to be ancillary to and integrated with a
robust satellite system that is available to all system users (the
"integrated service" rule).
Even with ATC, the Mobile Satellite Service ("MSS") has never really
caught on, so it represents a fair chunk of spectrum getting very
little use. Some MSS providers seek to create primarily-terrestrial
systems with an essentially vestigial satellite component. The FCC
(in its National Broadband Plan -- see
http://www.broadband.gov/plan/) has started to move toward allowing
terrestrial-only services to operate on a co-primary basis with the
MSS on MSS spectrum, which has emboldened MSS
licensees. Lightsquared, which is an MSS licensee, petitioned for a
conditional waiver of the "integrated service" rule, which the FCC granted:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-11-133A1.pdf
One of the conditions imposed by the FCC was "the creation of a
process to address interference concerns regarding GPS and, further,
that this process must be completed to the Commission's satisfaction
before LightSquared commences offering commercial service, pursuant
to the approval of its request, on its L-Band MSS frequencies." This
process is expected to be completed within 90 days. See paragraphs
39-43 of the FCC order linked above.
So: The FCC seems determined to allow the expanded use of L-band MSS
frequencies for terrestrial use to deliver mobile broadband services,
and Lightsquared is just one company looking to benefit. The primary
threat to GPS (GPS L1 is 1575.42 GHz) is from terrestrial base
stations serving mobile devices and operating up to 1.559 GHz,
although millions of mobile handsets operating between 1.6265 and
1.6605 GHz may also be a worry.
The FCC has made way more than its share of boneheaded technical
decisions over the decades (to name just the most visible tip of the
iceberg: NTSC, multiplexed FM stereo, NRSC preemphasis of AM signals,
AM stereo, forcing the switch to digital television, choice of
ATSC/8VSB as the digital television standard, choice of IBOC as the
AM/FM digital radio standard, etc., etc. -- and that's just in the
broadcast area). This time, it's a mad, desperate dash to find 500
MHz of spectrum usable for mobile broadband in the next 5 years.
In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because
there has been no engineering expertise or background at the
Commission(er) level since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was, but
perhaps in the 1930s-'40s. The FCC staff is supposed to provide
engineering support, but Commissioners often do not listen to the
staff as carefully as they should and sometimes the staff gets it
wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include at least
one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has
enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level.
Thus, the truth (at least as I see it) is much more complicated than
a simplistic conspiracy theory -- but then, it always is.
Best regards,
Charles
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Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Hi It certainly will not be "fast" by any standard. Bob -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: The web site reads like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients: People will hate this service. Going up to geo-sync adds a noticeable and annoying lag do unavoidable speed of light round trip time of flight. This is one reason the phone companies have been investing in fiber for long haul. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: > The web site reads > like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients: People will hate this service. Going up to geo-sync adds a noticeable and annoying lag do unavoidable speed of light round trip time of flight. This is one reason the phone companies have been investing in fiber for long haul. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Wonder if the clients of this network reduce power as cell phones do to increase battery life and reduce interference or they will use a dish on the fixed clients, not that would help with interference from the sat. The web site reads like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients: http://www.lightsquared.com/what-we-do/technology/ Stanley - Original Message From: Chris Albertson To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Wed, February 2, 2011 12:09:07 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math > Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles. > 40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles. > Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles. By the same logic, all of the office space in New York could not fit in New York. But it does because they stack it 20 or 100 floors one on top of the other. I suspect the areas will overlap with very dense coverage in urban areas. Perhaps in some places there is 50 or 100 channels of coverage and in others one or even zero. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Hi There's no decision that they take that they can't reverse. That goes double for something like this that was done pretty quickly. My guess is that they have a limited rather than a full approval at this point. From the article "proceed with ancillary terrestrial component operations" does not sound like a full license. If you do a little Google work on the topic, there are a lot of different services and outfits impacted by this (not just GPS). None of them are happy and all of them are likely on the phone to their favorite legislator and / or lawyers. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:13 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math Go back to my orig post the FCC has given the go ahead .. to late ? On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles. > 40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles. > Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles. > > On that basis, there's not going to be anywhere in the US that you *can* get > GPS to fly a plane. Jamming detected = could be a problem = you can't trust > it. > > I suspect that there indeed will be remote parts of Alaska or the like that > you will indeed still have un-jammed coverage in a plane. > > Now for the "best case": > > 5.6 miles loss of fix = just under 100 square miles. That's 3.94 million > square miles of jamming. That's still greater than the area of the US. I'm > sure we'll have some left over to jam Canada and Mexico as well. Again, > there will be patches where you can get a fix, but they will be the > exception rather than the rule. > > File an IFR flight plan based on any of this - no way. Insure an airline > that does that - no way. Run an airline based on "VFR only" not going to > happen. Is everything GPS based - no, but there's a lot of the country where > it is. > > Not at all clear how you will keep aviation going under those conditions > unless Lightsquared replaces all their gear with *type accepted* > replacements. Where do I sign up for my free gps? > > Let's suppose they have big pockets and do all that. > > At the consumer level, you have 128 thousand square miles with urban canyon > issues. Good bet that's every place with an urban canyon in the country. > Essentially cross off GPS in every large city. > > Out here in the sticks, things are a little better. Only a bit over 17 > thousand square miles lost. Except ... do you have any hills or mountains > near you? Back to the paragraph above if you live anywhere other than > western Kansas. > > Why are they setting this up - to get internet to people. Where are the > transmitters going - where people live. The consumer numbers may not sound > as bad, but there's a lot of country that is pretty empty. Look at any cell > coverage map to get a good idea how much. You still nuke a lot of voters > with "only" 17 thousand square miles. Not to mention fire, police, EMS, and > the DHL guy. > > Then you have the federal law about 911 tracking on cell phones. How does > that work - GPS. Under what conditions - worse than an urban canyon (no sky > at all). You *at least* have the urban canyon area to deal with and likely > worse. Any bet your cell phone GPS is as RF rugged as the one in your car? > I'm not taking that bet. Bop up the coverage area a bit more. > > So average urban canyon with airborne and what do you get - just a bit over > a half million square miles. My guess is that's the whole area of the > country that has a population dimensioned in multiple people per square > mile. > > So we have: > > 1) Multiple Airplanes running into mountains > 2) Many houses burning to the ground > 3) Lots of 911 calls getting miss directed and people dying as a result > 4) Joe six pack getting lost on the way to the beer store > > All could be what nukes this. I'm betting on number 4 ... > > Bob > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Go back to my orig post the FCC has given the go ahead .. to late ? On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles. > 40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles. > Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles. > > On that basis, there's not going to be anywhere in the US that you *can* get > GPS to fly a plane. Jamming detected = could be a problem = you can't trust > it. > > I suspect that there indeed will be remote parts of Alaska or the like that > you will indeed still have un-jammed coverage in a plane. > > Now for the "best case": > > 5.6 miles loss of fix = just under 100 square miles. That's 3.94 million > square miles of jamming. That's still greater than the area of the US. I'm > sure we'll have some left over to jam Canada and Mexico as well. Again, > there will be patches where you can get a fix, but they will be the > exception rather than the rule. > > File an IFR flight plan based on any of this - no way. Insure an airline > that does that - no way. Run an airline based on "VFR only" not going to > happen. Is everything GPS based - no, but there's a lot of the country where > it is. > > Not at all clear how you will keep aviation going under those conditions > unless Lightsquared replaces all their gear with *type accepted* > replacements. Where do I sign up for my free gps? > > Let's suppose they have big pockets and do all that. > > At the consumer level, you have 128 thousand square miles with urban canyon > issues. Good bet that's every place with an urban canyon in the country. > Essentially cross off GPS in every large city. > > Out here in the sticks, things are a little better. Only a bit over 17 > thousand square miles lost. Except ... do you have any hills or mountains > near you? Back to the paragraph above if you live anywhere other than > western Kansas. > > Why are they setting this up - to get internet to people. Where are the > transmitters going - where people live. The consumer numbers may not sound > as bad, but there's a lot of country that is pretty empty. Look at any cell > coverage map to get a good idea how much. You still nuke a lot of voters > with "only" 17 thousand square miles. Not to mention fire, police, EMS, and > the DHL guy. > > Then you have the federal law about 911 tracking on cell phones. How does > that work - GPS. Under what conditions - worse than an urban canyon (no sky > at all). You *at least* have the urban canyon area to deal with and likely > worse. Any bet your cell phone GPS is as RF rugged as the one in your car? > I'm not taking that bet. Bop up the coverage area a bit more. > > So average urban canyon with airborne and what do you get - just a bit over > a half million square miles. My guess is that's the whole area of the > country that has a population dimensioned in multiple people per square > mile. > > So we have: > > 1) Multiple Airplanes running into mountains > 2) Many houses burning to the ground > 3) Lots of 911 calls getting miss directed and people dying as a result > 4) Joe six pack getting lost on the way to the beer store > > All could be what nukes this. I'm betting on number 4 ... > > Bob > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Hi I'm sure their deployment is indeed population driven. You will still likely be fine over parts of Alaska and Montana. Over the high density traffic areas on the coasts - unlikely. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:09 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math > Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles. > 40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles. > Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles. By the same logic, all of the office space in New York could not fit in New York. But it does because they stack it 20 or 100 floors one on top of the other. I suspect the areas will overlap with very dense coverage in urban areas. Perhaps in some places there is 50 or 100 channels of coverage and in others one or even zero. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
> Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles. > 40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles. > Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles. By the same logic, all of the office space in New York could not fit in New York. But it does because they stack it 20 or 100 floors one on top of the other. I suspect the areas will overlap with very dense coverage in urban areas. Perhaps in some places there is 50 or 100 channels of coverage and in others one or even zero. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Hi Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles. 40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles. Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles. On that basis, there's not going to be anywhere in the US that you *can* get GPS to fly a plane. Jamming detected = could be a problem = you can't trust it. I suspect that there indeed will be remote parts of Alaska or the like that you will indeed still have un-jammed coverage in a plane. Now for the "best case": 5.6 miles loss of fix = just under 100 square miles. That's 3.94 million square miles of jamming. That's still greater than the area of the US. I'm sure we'll have some left over to jam Canada and Mexico as well. Again, there will be patches where you can get a fix, but they will be the exception rather than the rule. File an IFR flight plan based on any of this - no way. Insure an airline that does that - no way. Run an airline based on "VFR only" not going to happen. Is everything GPS based - no, but there's a lot of the country where it is. Not at all clear how you will keep aviation going under those conditions unless Lightsquared replaces all their gear with *type accepted* replacements. Where do I sign up for my free gps? Let's suppose they have big pockets and do all that. At the consumer level, you have 128 thousand square miles with urban canyon issues. Good bet that's every place with an urban canyon in the country. Essentially cross off GPS in every large city. Out here in the sticks, things are a little better. Only a bit over 17 thousand square miles lost. Except ... do you have any hills or mountains near you? Back to the paragraph above if you live anywhere other than western Kansas. Why are they setting this up - to get internet to people. Where are the transmitters going - where people live. The consumer numbers may not sound as bad, but there's a lot of country that is pretty empty. Look at any cell coverage map to get a good idea how much. You still nuke a lot of voters with "only" 17 thousand square miles. Not to mention fire, police, EMS, and the DHL guy. Then you have the federal law about 911 tracking on cell phones. How does that work - GPS. Under what conditions - worse than an urban canyon (no sky at all). You *at least* have the urban canyon area to deal with and likely worse. Any bet your cell phone GPS is as RF rugged as the one in your car? I'm not taking that bet. Bop up the coverage area a bit more. So average urban canyon with airborne and what do you get - just a bit over a half million square miles. My guess is that's the whole area of the country that has a population dimensioned in multiple people per square mile. So we have: 1) Multiple Airplanes running into mountains 2) Many houses burning to the ground 3) Lots of 911 calls getting miss directed and people dying as a result 4) Joe six pack getting lost on the way to the beer store All could be what nukes this. I'm betting on number 4 ... Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
