Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
In message 4f50645b.40...@employees.org, Cliff Sojourner writes: had a sailboat in the 80s and 90s, used a West Marine LORAN receiver and antenna... easily got better than 100' accuracy and repeatability, year after year. There is a very big difference in VLF performance at sea, high in the air and at ground. The latter sucks most, which is why you need detailed maps of local corrections. I wonder how much of a role the recent you could loose GPS to stupid politics experience has in this. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Peter wrote: Government subsidy, like letting them use the frequency? Like paying them as contractors to operate the transmitters. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
LORAN C Seems my fet preamp is working as I discovered this morning. Maybe the fets filament needed to warm up overnight. May have to dig in a bit. But oddly after a few minutes neither austron has begun to lock. I am running a hp 3586 off the same active antenna splitter and hearing the loran stations at -65 db. Thats a pretty strong signal. If these do not lock soon perhaps what I am hearing is a different chain. Regards Paul. On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Peter wrote: Government subsidy, like letting them use the frequency? Like paying them as contractors to operate the transmitters. Best regards, Charles __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
FETs filament... :) On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 3:12 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: LORAN C Seems my fet preamp is working as I discovered this morning. Maybe the fets filament needed to warm up overnight. May have to dig in a bit. But oddly after a few minutes neither austron has begun to lock. I am running a hp 3586 off the same active antenna splitter and hearing the loran stations at -65 db. Thats a pretty strong signal. If these do not lock soon perhaps what I am hearing is a different chain. Regards Paul. On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Peter wrote: Government subsidy, like letting them use the frequency? Like paying them as contractors to operate the transmitters. Best regards, Charles __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air
In 1983 we were testing Loran for a vehicle tracking application. We had a van with a Loran aviation antenna mounted on the roof and a relatively inexpensive marine Loran receiver. We started with an informal test. This was miles inland, about an hour's drive North of Detroit, Michigan. We parked on the shoulder of the road, beside a wooden post. I wrote down the latitude and longitude. My supervisor then drove the van a mile away. Then I looked at the Loran readout while he drove the same road. I only looked at the display, while giving him verbal instructions to slow down, slow down more, and finally I said, Stop! Dick said, You're not going to believe this. I looked up and right outside my window was the same post! On 03/01/2012 11:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air
Loran C absolute accuracy is between 0.1 and 0.25 miles ( http://msi.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/StaticFiles/NAV_PUBS/APN/Chapt-12.pdf) but the repeatability is way better (from 60 to 300 feet, same ref). When it was safe and fun to fly to Baja, Mexico I would record both ends of the runway with my Northstar Loran C. The absolute accuracy was miles off (geometry was horrible, way out of the coverage area), but once marked, I could return to the same spot every time. I kept a complete table of the Baja and west coast of the mainland permanently in my flight bag. Michael / K7HIL On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: In 1983 we were testing Loran for a vehicle tracking application. We had a van with a Loran aviation antenna mounted on the roof and a relatively inexpensive marine Loran receiver. We started with an informal test. This was miles inland, about an hour's drive North of Detroit, Michigan. We parked on the shoulder of the road, beside a wooden post. I wrote down the latitude and longitude. My supervisor then drove the van a mile away. Then I looked at the Loran readout while he drove the same road. I only looked at the display, while giving him verbal instructions to slow down, slow down more, and finally I said, Stop! Dick said, You're not going to believe this. I looked up and right outside my window was the same post! On 03/01/2012 11:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air (first time post from new reader)
Signed up two weeks ago and been lurking. There is a wonderful page for Loran history here: http://www.loran-history.info/default.asp Dave (Pacific Northwest) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike Naruta AA8K Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 9:16 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air In 1983 we were testing Loran for a vehicle tracking application. We had a van with a Loran aviation antenna mounted on the roof and a relatively inexpensive marine Loran receiver. We started with an informal test. This was miles inland, about an hour's drive North of Detroit, Michigan. We parked on the shoulder of the road, beside a wooden post. I wrote down the latitude and longitude. My supervisor then drove the van a mile away. Then I looked at the Loran readout while he drove the same road. I only looked at the display, while giving him verbal instructions to slow down, slow down more, and finally I said, Stop! Dick said, You're not going to believe this. I looked up and right outside my window was the same post! On 03/01/2012 11:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. TIME FOR LIFE UrsaNav Testing Wide-Area Timing Alternative February 29, 2012. This week, for the first time since August 2010, advanced Low Frequency (LF) signals, including eLoran are on air in North America. As a result of a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) between the United States Coast Guard and UrsaNav, Inc. live testing of a wide-area precise timing solution has begun. These initial tests include a comprehensive pallet of signals, including eLoran, that are being evaluated for their ability to provide a robust, wide area, wireless precise timing alternative that can operate cooperatively with GPS, or during periods of GPS unavailability. Globally, government, industry, and academic experts recognize that enhanced LF signals, such as eLoran, can provide alternative timing, either as a standalone service, or as a component of a Position, Navigation, and Timing (PNT) service. The LF signals operate independently of Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS), such as GPS. This recognition has led to a cooperative approach, such as the CRADA, for testing and examining the benefits of a wide-area timing solution. Additional on-air tests are planned at various sites throughout the United States. Broadcasts will test several different frequencies, waveforms, and modulation techniques using evolutionary, state-of-the-art technology. Reception of these broadcasts are planned at both on-shore and off-shore locations, and will include advanced LF data delivery techniques. The results of these trials will be presented at national and international conferences. Any party interested in any part of the trial, or interested in doing their own measurements are invited to contact us. UrsaNav is uniquely positioned to help achieve the CRADA goals. We provide the worlds most advanced solutions for Low Frequency Alternative Positioning, Navigation, Timing, and Data, including high performance eLoran Timing Receivers. We have partnered with Symmetricom, the global leader in precise time synchronization, and Nautel, the industry-leading supplier of high-power RF transmitters. This “alliance of expertise” provides the foundation technology for the best wide area, terrestrial based alternative to satellite systems such as GPS. GLONASS, and Galileo. U.S. Offices Chris Stout Vice President, LF Engineerng 757.312.0790 cst...@ursanav.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Well that would indeed be one heck of a late xmas present will fire up the system tonight THANK you Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Greg Broburg semif...@comcast.net wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. TIME FOR LIFE UrsaNav Testing Wide-Area Timing Alternative February 29, 2012. This week, for the first time since August 2010, advanced Low Frequency (LF) signals, including eLoran are on air in North America. As a result of a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) between the United States Coast Guard and UrsaNav, Inc. live testing of a wide-area precise timing solution has begun. These initial tests include a comprehensive pallet of signals, including eLoran, that are being evaluated for their ability to provide a robust, wide area, wireless precise timing alternative that can operate cooperatively with GPS, or during periods of GPS unavailability. Globally, government, industry, and academic experts recognize that enhanced LF signals, such as eLoran, can provide alternative timing, either as a standalone service, or as a component of a Position, Navigation, and Timing (PNT) service. The LF signals operate independently of Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS), such as GPS. This recognition has led to a cooperative approach, such as the CRADA, for testing and examining the benefits of a wide-area timing solution. Additional on-air tests are planned at various sites throughout the United States. Broadcasts will test several different frequencies, waveforms, and modulation techniques using evolutionary, state-of-the-art technology. Reception of these broadcasts are planned at both on-shore and off-shore locations, and will include advanced LF data delivery techniques. The results of these trials will be presented at national and international conferences. Any party interested in any part of the trial, or interested in doing their own measurements are invited to contact us. UrsaNav is uniquely positioned to help achieve the CRADA goals. We provide the worlds most advanced solutions for Low Frequency Alternative Positioning, Navigation, Timing, and Data, including high performance eLoran Timing Receivers. We have partnered with Symmetricom, the global leader in precise time synchronization, and Nautel, the industry-leading supplier of high-power RF transmitters. This “alliance of expertise” provides the foundation technology for the best wide area, terrestrial based alternative to satellite systems such as GPS. GLONASS, and Galileo. U.S. Offices Chris Stout Vice President, LF Engineerng 757.312.0790 cst...@ursanav.com __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Hi It would be interesting to find a few more details... Bob On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well darn Though I can hear them on the longwire with a hp3586. It appears the loran c preamp may have bit the dust. I checked the austrons with the simulator and they are doing fine. Will have to look at the preamp this weekend. Easily fixable generally speaking. Can tell at least on the eastcoast that they are running dual rate so 59300 and 99600 I suspect. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well that would indeed be one heck of a late xmas present will fire up the system tonight THANK you Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Greg Broburg semif...@comcast.net wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. TIME FOR LIFE UrsaNav Testing Wide-Area Timing Alternative February 29, 2012. This week, for the first time since August 2010, advanced Low Frequency (LF) signals, including eLoran are on air in North America. As a result of a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) between the United States Coast Guard and UrsaNav, Inc. live testing of a wide-area precise timing solution has begun. These initial tests include a comprehensive pallet of signals, including eLoran, that are being evaluated for their ability to provide a robust, wide area, wireless precise timing alternative that can operate cooperatively with GPS, or during periods of GPS unavailability. Globally, government, industry, and academic experts recognize that enhanced LF signals, such as eLoran, can provide alternative timing, either as a standalone service, or as a component of a Position, Navigation, and Timing (PNT) service. The LF signals operate independently of Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS), such as GPS. This recognition has led to a cooperative approach, such as the CRADA, for testing and examining the benefits of a wide-area timing solution. Additional on-air tests are planned at various sites throughout the United States. Broadcasts will test several different frequencies, waveforms, and modulation techniques using evolutionary, state-of-the-art technology. Reception of these broadcasts are planned at both on-shore and off-shore locations, and will include advanced LF data delivery techniques. The results of these trials will be presented at national and international conferences. Any party interested in any part of the trial, or interested in doing their own measurements are invited to contact us. UrsaNav is uniquely positioned to help achieve the CRADA goals. We provide the worlds most advanced solutions for Low Frequency Alternative Positioning, Navigation, Timing, and Data, including high performance eLoran Timing Receivers. We have partnered with Symmetricom, the global leader in precise time synchronization, and Nautel, the industry-leading supplier of high-power RF transmitters. This “alliance of expertise” provides the foundation technology for the best wide area, terrestrial based alternative to satellite systems such as GPS. GLONASS, and Galileo. U.S. Offices Chris Stout Vice President, LF Engineerng 757.312.0790 cst...@ursanav.com __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Terrific news! -John Well darn Though I can hear them on the longwire with a hp3586. It appears the loran c preamp may have bit the dust. I checked the austrons with the simulator and they are doing fine. Will have to look at the preamp this weekend. Easily fixable generally speaking. Can tell at least on the eastcoast that they are running dual rate so 59300 and 99600 I suspect. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well that would indeed be one heck of a late xmas present will fire up the system tonight THANK you Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Greg Broburg semif...@comcast.net wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. TIME FOR LIFE UrsaNav Testing Wide-Area Timing Alternative February 29, 2012. This week, for the first time since August 2010, advanced Low Frequency (LF) signals, including eLoran are on air in North America. As a result of a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) between the United States Coast Guard and UrsaNav, Inc. live testing of a wide-area precise timing solution has begun. These initial tests include a comprehensive pallet of signals, including eLoran, that are being evaluated for their ability to provide a robust, wide area, wireless precise timing alternative that can operate cooperatively with GPS, or during periods of GPS unavailability. Globally, government, industry, and academic experts recognize that enhanced LF signals, such as eLoran, can provide alternative timing, either as a standalone service, or as a component of a Position, Navigation, and Timing (PNT) service. The LF signals operate independently of Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS), such as GPS. This recognition has led to a cooperative approach, such as the CRADA, for testing and examining the benefits of a wide-area timing solution. Additional on-air tests are planned at various sites throughout the United States. Broadcasts will test several different frequencies, waveforms, and modulation techniques using evolutionary, state-of-the-art technology. Reception of these broadcasts are planned at both on-shore and off-shore locations, and will include advanced LF data delivery techniques. The results of these trials will be presented at national and international conferences. Any party interested in any part of the trial, or interested in doing their own measurements are invited to contact us. UrsaNav is uniquely positioned to help achieve the CRADA goals. We provide the worlds most advanced solutions for Low Frequency Alternative Positioning, Navigation, Timing, and Data, including high performance eLoran Timing Receivers. We have partnered with Symmetricom, the global leader in precise time synchronization, and Nautel, the industry-leading supplier of high-power RF transmitters. This alliance of expertise provides the foundation technology for the best wide area, terrestrial based alternative to satellite systems such as GPS. GLONASS, and Galileo. U.S. Offices Chris Stout Vice President, LF Engineerng 757.312.0790 cst...@ursanav.com __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Hi The obvious advantage to backwards compatibility would be much greater coverage area. It is a bit tough to envision them getting a reasonable user population with a 100% from scratch approach. Indeed that may be wishful thinking. Bob On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Eloran is compatible with the older timing rcvrs. Or at least it was supposed to be. Now the message suggests that they will try other modulation modes. I couldn't find anything really further then what was sent. I did hook the longwire directly to the austron so far no lock and I am less then 70 miles from the Nantucket site. Will keep trying Regards Paul On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The obvious advantage to backwards compatibility would be much greater coverage area. It is a bit tough to envision them getting a reasonable user population with a 100% from scratch approach. Indeed that may be wishful thinking. Bob On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Hmmm did find a paper that suggests various goals and such and the old loran gear might not work. Depends on what modes they try. Would be great to find some form of updated news. Regards Paul. On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:25 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Eloran is compatible with the older timing rcvrs. Or at least it was supposed to be. Now the message suggests that they will try other modulation modes. I couldn't find anything really further then what was sent. I did hook the longwire directly to the austron so far no lock and I am less then 70 miles from the Nantucket site. Will keep trying Regards Paul On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The obvious advantage to backwards compatibility would be much greater coverage area. It is a bit tough to envision them getting a reasonable user population with a 100% from scratch approach. Indeed that may be wishful thinking. Bob On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
A document I found via UrsaNav's web site describes the basic premise of eLORAN, and indicates that it is intended to be backward compatible, although the timing and navigation performance will not be any better than before. This seems reasonable. The 'e' part adds a data channel that adds corrections for propagation and such to improve the accuracy, which obviously the old receivers can't support. It appears that the sales pitch is to provide a reliable backup for the satellite based systems as well as better penetration into urban canyons and buildings than GPS offers. The document does provide some predicted performance specs for time and position. UrsaNav looks to be selling receivers for this, some of which would be very small, and some would offer eLORAN plus GNSS capability. Tom Holmes, N8ZM Tipp City, OH EM79 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 8:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air. Eloran is compatible with the older timing rcvrs. Or at least it was supposed to be. Now the message suggests that they will try other modulation modes. I couldn't find anything really further then what was sent. I did hook the longwire directly to the austron so far no lock and I am less then 70 miles from the Nantucket site. Will keep trying Regards Paul On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The obvious advantage to backwards compatibility would be much greater coverage area. It is a bit tough to envision them getting a reasonable user population with a 100% from scratch approach. Indeed that may be wishful thinking. Bob On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Bob wrote: The obvious advantage to backwards compatibility would be much greater coverage area. It is a bit tough to envision them getting a reasonable user population with a 100% from scratch approach. Indeed that may be wishful thinking. Well, if they get no revenue from legacy users, how does the increased user base benefit them (and, thus, why would they care)? The only path I see is, Get 'em hooked using their old receivers, and they will need new receivers to replace them as they decide they can't live without the enhancements or as their old receivers die. But any number of users might decide that the legacy capabilities were sufficient. Indeed, other manufacturers might start producing new legacy receivers without having to pay to license any of the enhanced technology, and spoil the market for enhanced receivers. All speculation, of course, but it seems at least facially plausible to me. Maybe it depends on what is enhanced, and by how much. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Well, if they get no revenue from legacy users, how does the increased user base benefit them (and, thus, why would they care)? The only path I see is, Get 'em hooked using their old receivers, and... The paying customer is the military. They need a backup to GPS. The hijacking of that drone over Iran proved that point to them. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Government subsidy, like letting them use the frequency? On 3/1/2012 8:09 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2113/4845 - Release Date: 03/01/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
The publication in the federal register, here http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-01-11/html/2012-307.htm says they are playing with more than Loran. There are several MF bands they are playing with as well, in particular the dGPS bands and 500 kHz. I noticed a while ago that UrsaNav's UN-151 receiver was advertised as being capable of processing multiple signals in the LF and MF bands, and wondered what the MF part was about. That is a bit clearer now. Dennis Ferguson On 1 Mar, 2012, at 21:04 , paul swed wrote: Hmmm did find a paper that suggests various goals and such and the old loran gear might not work. Depends on what modes they try. Would be great to find some form of updated news. Regards Paul. On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:25 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Eloran is compatible with the older timing rcvrs. Or at least it was supposed to be. Now the message suggests that they will try other modulation modes. I couldn't find anything really further then what was sent. I did hook the longwire directly to the austron so far no lock and I am less then 70 miles from the Nantucket site. Will keep trying Regards Paul On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The obvious advantage to backwards compatibility would be much greater coverage area. It is a bit tough to envision them getting a reasonable user population with a 100% from scratch approach. Indeed that may be wishful thinking. Bob On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Greg wrote: A friend in Texas has confirmed that Loran signals are now up and receivers are showing position. I am including a note from UrsaNav regarding this event. What are the odds that any long-term deployment would be backward-compatible with legacy Loran receivers (not the same as the initial tests being backward-compatible)? The primary revenue stream would appear to be from sales of new receivers that use patented technology (unless the government wants to get back into the business of subsidizing Loran, which it just vacated -- not very likely). Cynical, maybe, but it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the money. I suppose they could make the enhancements transparent to legacy receivers, so you would buy new receivers if you needed the enhancements but could also use older receivers if you didn't. But would they? There does not appear to be an incentive to do so, absent a government subsidy. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? I assume the answer is it depends, but I'm looking for the overview type answer. What does it depend upon? What are the ballpark type answers? What info should I be providing to get better answers? I assume it depends upon the distance from the transmitter. How much does it depend upon time-of-day type propagation delays? If I use GPS to determine my position, how much does a known good position help a Loran type system to determine timing at a that location? Assume I have months to calibrate the system. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
In my experience, Loran C will get you into a foot ball field sized area of where you are going, day or nite, rain or shine. The big difference is Loran C needs a more substantial antenna than does GPS. I don't think you will be finding a reliable Loran C receiver in a smart phone. -Chuck Harris Hal Murray wrote: What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? I assume the answer is it depends, but I'm looking for the overview type answer. What does it depend upon? What are the ballpark type answers? What info should I be providing to get better answers? I assume it depends upon the distance from the transmitter. How much does it depend upon time-of-day type propagation delays? If I use GPS to determine my position, how much does a known good position help a Loran type system to determine timing at a that location? Assume I have months to calibrate the system. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
Keith Peshak has a setup located in Georgetown Texas that tracks the position of a fixed Loran antenna and an fixed GPS antenna. The Loran beats the GPS all of the time does not need wide area augmentation to nail down the center of a runway. On 3/1/2012 10:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? I assume the answer is it depends, but I'm looking for the overview type answer. What does it depend upon? What are the ballpark type answers? What info should I be providing to get better answers? I assume it depends upon the distance from the transmitter. How much does it depend upon time-of-day type propagation delays? If I use GPS to determine my position, how much does a known good position help a Loran type system to determine timing at a that location? Assume I have months to calibrate the system. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
I about agree. It consistently nailed my position w/in about 100 feet on a LORAN Chart using an early uP (8085) based receiver (Appelco). The antenna was a Radio Shack whip with a preamp at its base. With an Austron 2100F against a Rb and Oscilloquartz or HP 117A things were reliably in few in 10 E-11. I saw no diurnal shift as with WWVB, but am in the Boston area. I never did any data logging or careful measurements, but just used it to tweek the crystals every month or so. FWIW, -John = In my experience, Loran C will get you into a foot ball field sized area of where you are going, day or nite, rain or shine. The big difference is Loran C needs a more substantial antenna than does GPS. I don't think you will be finding a reliable Loran C receiver in a smart phone. -Chuck Harris Hal Murray wrote: What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system? I assume the answer is it depends, but I'm looking for the overview type answer. What does it depend upon? What are the ballpark type answers? What info should I be providing to get better answers? I assume it depends upon the distance from the transmitter. How much does it depend upon time-of-day type propagation delays? If I use GPS to determine my position, how much does a known good position help a Loran type system to determine timing at a that location? Assume I have months to calibrate the system. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran transmitters back on the air.
had a sailboat in the 80s and 90s, used a West Marine LORAN receiver and antenna... easily got better than 100' accuracy and repeatability, year after year. we went to the same anchor holes all the time, took angular sights to confirm the LORAN. loved it. never had a GPS until after the turn of the century... 2002 maybe? Cliff K6CLS On 2012-03-01 20:54, J. Forster wrote: I about agree. It consistently nailed my position w/in about 100 feet on a LORAN Chart using an early uP (8085) based receiver (Appelco). The antenna was a Radio Shack whip with a preamp at its base.re. ... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
