Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 4 Nov 2016 17:48, "Bob Camp"  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot
on the EFC. I
> never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that don’t
have a pot on
> the EFC.
>
> Bob

I'm amazed my 18 GHz HP 5342A counter has no pot. IIRC the standard TCXO
does, but the counter drifts a lot with that.  After fitting the optional
10811A OCXO, I discovered it is almost impossible to set the frequency from
the mechanical control. I guess I should modify the counter and add a
control. It really is odd that there's no such facility.

That said,  the difference in value between this old counter and the newer
microwave counters like the 5351B has fallen.  The newer ones are much more
sensitive too.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Clint Jay]

I own a 5680b and while it only outputs a PPS signal there is a very stable
30MHz signal available inside the unit IIRC.

I can dig mine out and find the signal if that's of use?

I believe they can be modded for 10MHz output on the 15p D type  but I've
just not managed to find time to get around to that yet.

On 5 Nov 2016 13:33, "EB4APL"  wrote:

I agree that FE-5680 is a whole family of products with very different
features and these can not deducted from the labels.

In my case I own a FE-5680A which outputs 1 PPS and a fixed (but slightly
tunable) 10 MHz and needs 2 power supply voltages, +5 V and + 15 V.

I am sending directly to you the information of the breakout board that I
use and it includes the pinout of this unit.  A caution here, some of the
FE-5680 variations have different pinouts.

Regards,

Ignacio EB4APL



El 05/11/2016 a las 2:01, Peter Reilley escribió:

> It is a FE-5680B.   It is my understanding that these were made in many
> variations
> of features but that what features were present or absent could not be
> known
> from the model numbers of other external identifying information. This one
> has the 1 PPS apparently.
>
> Pete.
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2016 1:07 PM, EB4APL wrote:
>
>> A bit OT, but regarding your Rb, some units needs to be powered thru 2
>> pins, one is used only for the 10 MHz output buffer, if remember it
>> correctly. Which is your model number?
>>
>> Ignacio EB4APL
>>
>>
>> El 04/11/2016 a las 16:35, Peter Reilley escribió:
>>
>>> I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz
>>> OCXO's that
>>> I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the
>>> uncorrected 1 PPS
>>> signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for
>>> calibration
>>> with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it
>>> would be better
>>> but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
>>>
>>> Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put
>>> away because
>>> it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal and
>>> nothing else.
>>> I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on the
>>> scope.
>>> The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be
>>> good.
>>>
>>> With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the HP
>>> 5370B with
>>> a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That
>>> is, it should
>>> take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360
>>> degrees.   That
>>> is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO. Even the
>>> slightest
>>> movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is
>>> spec'ed.   How
>>> do cal labs do it?
>>>
>>> My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term stability of
>>> better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The
>>> adjustment
>>> screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a
>>> few seconds for
>>> one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard. It seems
>>> that I can't
>>> get even close to the spec.
>>>
>>> These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[EB4APL]

I agree that FE-5680 is a whole family of products with very different 
features and these can not deducted from the labels.


In my case I own a FE-5680A which outputs 1 PPS and a fixed (but 
slightly tunable) 10 MHz and needs 2 power supply voltages, +5 V and + 15 V.


I am sending directly to you the information of the breakout board that 
I use and it includes the pinout of this unit.  A caution here, some of 
the FE-5680 variations have different pinouts.


Regards,

Ignacio EB4APL


El 05/11/2016 a las 2:01, Peter Reilley escribió:
It is a FE-5680B.   It is my understanding that these were made in 
many variations
of features but that what features were present or absent could not be 
known
from the model numbers of other external identifying information. This 
one

has the 1 PPS apparently.

Pete.



On 11/4/2016 1:07 PM, EB4APL wrote:
A bit OT, but regarding your Rb, some units needs to be powered thru 
2 pins, one is used only for the 10 MHz output buffer, if remember it 
correctly. Which is your model number?


Ignacio EB4APL


El 04/11/2016 a las 16:35, Peter Reilley escribió:
I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 
MHz OCXO's that
I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the 
uncorrected 1 PPS
signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it 
for calibration
with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it 
would be better

but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.

Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had 
put away because
it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal 
and nothing else.
I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on 
the scope.
The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be 
good.


With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the 
HP 5370B with
a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. 
That is, it should
take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360 
degrees.   That
is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO. Even the 
slightest
movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is 
spec'ed.   How

do cal labs do it?

My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term 
stability of
better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! 
The adjustment
screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than 
a few seconds for
one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard. It 
seems that I can't

get even close to the spec.

These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?

Pete.



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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Bob Camp]

HI

If you use a good wire wound pot and run it off of and oscillator EFC source 
(not
all have them), the temperature effect is pretty much zero. You are using the 
pot
as a ratio device. 

A mechanical cap that is part of the heated region of the OCXO (the normal case)
has already been taken into consideration when the OCXO set point is adjusted to
compensate it.

Bob

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 3:34 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> kb...@n1k.org said:
>> The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot on
>> the EFC. I never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that
>> don’t have a pot on the EFC. 
> 
> How would temperature effect that?  For that matter, how does temperature 
> effect the typical mechanical capacitor?  Does anybody play fancy tricks to 
> cancel out the mechanical motions?  (like the mercury pendulum - as the 
> pendulum rod expands the mercury expands in the other direction to keep the 
> CG the same)
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A ten or twenty turn pot on a normal EFC will get you past the point that 
you can reasonably set the oscillator. The typical (not GPS version) EFC is down
around 1 to 2 x 10^-7. A 20 turn pot will be running 1x10^-8 per turn. 100 to 
200
points per turn is a pretty typical “set” number for a pot. That gets you into 
the 
sub 1x10^-10 region. The OCXO’s we are talking about have a temperature,
 pressure and humidity coefficient that each are well above that level.

Bob 

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a reason counters don't let you digitally
> calibrate beyond that, the 10 MHz ref out on the rear panel would still be
> out of cal.
> 
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot
>> on the EFC. I
>> never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that don’t
>> have a pot on
>> the EFC.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 11:35 AM, Peter Reilley 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz
>> OCXO's that
>>> I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the
>> uncorrected 1 PPS
>>> signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for
>> calibration
>>> with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it
>> would be better
>>> but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
>>> 
>>> Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put
>> away because
>>> it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal and
>> nothing else.
>>> I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on the
>> scope.
>>> The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be
>> good.
>>> 
>>> With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the HP
>> 5370B with
>>> a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That
>> is, it should
>>> take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360
>> degrees.   That
>>> is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO.   Even the
>> slightest
>>> movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is
>> spec'ed.   How
>>> do cal labs do it?
>>> 
>>> My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term stability of
>>> better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The
>> adjustment
>>> screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a
>> few seconds for
>>> one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard.   It
>> seems that I can't
>>> get even close to the spec.
>>> 
>>> These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?
>>> 
>>> Pete.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/3/2016 8:20 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
 I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time
>> it is.
 To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
 
 I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO
>> option.   I also
 have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against
>> my Trimble
 Resolution T GPS receiver.
 
 I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
>> TCXO
 signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
>> TCXO's are
 already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction
>> of a waveform.
 I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
>> correction.
 
 I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more
>> than 1/2
 of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for
>> a few seconds
 then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to
>> be confident
 that I have not slipped one cycle.
 
 Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
 
 Pete.
 
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 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Peter Reilley]

It is a FE-5680B.   It is my understanding that these were made in many 
variations

of features but that what features were present or absent could not be known
from the model numbers of other external identifying information. This one
has the 1 PPS apparently.

Pete.



On 11/4/2016 1:07 PM, EB4APL wrote:
A bit OT, but regarding your Rb, some units needs to be powered thru 2 
pins, one is used only for the 10 MHz output buffer, if remember it 
correctly. Which is your model number?


Ignacio EB4APL


El 04/11/2016 a las 16:35, Peter Reilley escribió:
I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 
MHz OCXO's that
I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the 
uncorrected 1 PPS
signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it 
for calibration
with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it 
would be better

but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.

Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put 
away because
it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal 
and nothing else.
I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on 
the scope.
The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be 
good.


With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the 
HP 5370B with
a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That 
is, it should
take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360 
degrees.   That
is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO. Even the 
slightest
movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is 
spec'ed.   How

do cal labs do it?

My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term 
stability of
better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The 
adjustment
screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a 
few seconds for
one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard. It 
seems that I can't

get even close to the spec.

These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?

Pete.



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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi David,

Your solution is fine. Most time interval counters can only make 10 or 100 or 
at most 1000 measurements per second, so what you did is exactly the right 
thing. When using a divider + TIC nothing is lost and everything is gained. 
Even 'scopes cannot retrace 1000's of times a second. So using a digital 
divider is what almost all of us do.

What you don't want to get in the habit of doing is comparing 10 MHz (100 ns 
cycles) against 1 PPS. Why? Because it works most of the time, except when it 
doesn't. Which is to say a good GPS/1PPS is within +/-50 ns almost all the 
time, except when it isn't. So it's more robust to phase compare a GPS/1PPS 
against another 1PPS, or even 1 kHz or 10 kHz, but not 10 MHz. This drastically 
reduces to practically eliminates chances of cycle slip. It's one reason why 
the PIC divider chips (or equivalent) are so useful (www.leapsecond.com/pic).

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "David" <davidwh...@gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.


> My simple solution to this was to divide the 1 PPS signal down so the
> jitter from the uncorrected GPS was a smaller part.  Of course then
> each measurement takes proportionally longer.
> 
> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:35:59 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>>I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz 
>>OCXO's that
>>I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the 
>>uncorrected 1 PPS
>>signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for 
>>calibration
>>with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it 
>>would be better
>>but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
>>
>>...
>>
>>Pete.
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[David]

My simple solution to this was to divide the 1 PPS signal down so the
jitter from the uncorrected GPS was a smaller part.  Of course then
each measurement takes proportionally longer.

On Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:35:59 -0400, you wrote:

>I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz 
>OCXO's that
>I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the 
>uncorrected 1 PPS
>signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for 
>calibration
>with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it 
>would be better
>but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
>
>...
>
>Pete.
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Wes]

On 11/4/2016 12:34 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

kb...@n1k.org said:

The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot on
the EFC. I never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that
don’t have a pot on the EFC.

How would temperature effect that?  For that matter, how does temperature
effect the typical mechanical capacitor?  Does anybody play fancy tricks to
cancel out the mechanical motions?  (like the mercury pendulum - as the
pendulum rod expands the mercury expands in the other direction to keep the
CG the same)

The variable tuning capacitor in one of the military "frequency meters" (I 
forget which one, BC221 leaps to mind) had a small disk on an adjustment screw 
that worked against a bi-metallic strip "diving board" to make a temperature 
sensitive trimmer capacitor.  I suspect, however, that it functioned more to 
compensate the inductor than the variable capacitor that was very robust.


Before synthesizers, I built a VFO for a homemade receiver using one of these 
cannibalized from a freq meter.


Wes Stewart, N7WS
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Hal Murray]

kb...@n1k.org said:
> The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot on
> the EFC. I never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that
> don’t have a pot on the EFC. 

How would temperature effect that?  For that matter, how does temperature 
effect the typical mechanical capacitor?  Does anybody play fancy tricks to 
cancel out the mechanical motions?  (like the mercury pendulum - as the 
pendulum rod expands the mercury expands in the other direction to keep the 
CG the same)

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Scott Stobbe]

I'm not sure if there is a reason counters don't let you digitally
calibrate beyond that, the 10 MHz ref out on the rear panel would still be
out of cal.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot
> on the EFC. I
> never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that don’t
> have a pot on
> the EFC.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 11:35 AM, Peter Reilley 
> wrote:
> >
> > I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz
> OCXO's that
> > I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the
> uncorrected 1 PPS
> > signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for
> calibration
> > with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it
> would be better
> > but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
> >
> > Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put
> away because
> > it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal and
> nothing else.
> > I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on the
> scope.
> > The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be
> good.
> >
> > With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the HP
> 5370B with
> > a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That
> is, it should
> > take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360
> degrees.   That
> > is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO.   Even the
> slightest
> > movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is
> spec'ed.   How
> > do cal labs do it?
> >
> > My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term stability of
> > better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The
> adjustment
> > screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a
> few seconds for
> > one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard.   It
> seems that I can't
> > get even close to the spec.
> >
> > These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?
> >
> > Pete.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/3/2016 8:20 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
> >> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time
> it is.
> >> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
> >>
> >> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO
> option.   I also
> >> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against
> my Trimble
> >> Resolution T GPS receiver.
> >>
> >> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
> TCXO
> >> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
> TCXO's are
> >> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction
> of a waveform.
> >> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
> correction.
> >>
> >> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more
> than 1/2
> >> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for
> a few seconds
> >> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to
> be confident
> >> that I have not slipped one cycle.
> >>
> >> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
> >>
> >> Pete.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The only practical way to set the 10811 or 10544 is with a >= 10 turn pot on 
the EFC. I
never have worked out just why there are so many instruments that don’t have a 
pot on
the EFC.

Bob

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 11:35 AM, Peter Reilley  wrote:
> 
> I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz 
> OCXO's that
> I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the uncorrected 1 
> PPS
> signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for 
> calibration
> with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it would be 
> better
> but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
> 
> Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put away 
> because
> it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal and 
> nothing else.
> I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on the scope.
> The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be good.
> 
> With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the HP 5370B 
> with
> a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That is, it 
> should
> take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360 degrees.   
> That
> is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO.   Even the 
> slightest
> movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is spec'ed.   How
> do cal labs do it?
> 
> My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term stability of
> better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The 
> adjustment
> screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a few 
> seconds for
> one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard.   It seems 
> that I can't
> get even close to the spec.
> 
> These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?
> 
> Pete.
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/3/2016 8:20 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
>> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it 
>> is.
>> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
>> 
>> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.   I 
>> also
>> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my 
>> Trimble
>> Resolution T GPS receiver.
>> 
>> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz TCXO
>> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The TCXO's 
>> are
>> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a 
>> waveform.
>> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth correction.
>> 
>> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than 1/2
>> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a 
>> few seconds
>> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be 
>> confident
>> that I have not slipped one cycle.
>> 
>> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
>> 
>> Pete.
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Peter Reilley]

I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz 
OCXO's that
I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the 
uncorrected 1 PPS
signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for 
calibration
with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it 
would be better

but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.

Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put 
away because
it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal and 
nothing else.
I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on the 
scope.

The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be good.

With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the HP 
5370B with
a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That 
is, it should
take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360 
degrees.   That
is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO.   Even the 
slightest
movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is 
spec'ed.   How

do cal labs do it?

My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term stability of
better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The 
adjustment
screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a 
few seconds for
one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard.   It 
seems that I can't

get even close to the spec.

These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?

Pete.



On 11/3/2016 8:20 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what 
time it is.

To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.

I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO 
option.   I also
have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them 
against my Trimble

Resolution T GPS receiver.

I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 
MHz TCXO
signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The 
TCXO's are
already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction 
of a waveform.
I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth 
correction.


I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more 
than 1/2
of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady 
for a few seconds
then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to 
be confident

that I have not slipped one cycle.

Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?

Pete.

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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Peter Reilley]

Yes you are correct.   All of the devices I am working with have OCXO's, 
it was a type

or a brain short.

Pete.



On 11/3/2016 9:07 PM, Paul Alfille wrote:

By the way, the HP5370B has a OCXO, not TCXO. It needs a while to become
stable, but should be quite consistent after that.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts 

wrote:

I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time

it is.

To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.

I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.

  I also

have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against

my Trimble

Resolution T GPS receiver.

I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz

TCXO

signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The

TCXO's are

already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of

a waveform.

I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth

correction.

I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than

1/2

of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for

a few seconds

then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to

be confident

that I have not slipped one cycle.

Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?

Pete.

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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Paul Alfille]

By the way, the HP5370B has a OCXO, not TCXO. It needs a while to become
stable, but should be quite consistent after that.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts  wrote:

> I’m going to try and describe my thoughts, but it may not come out as
> “right” as some others here can do. Still…
>
> One problem you’re going to run into if you go down the road of attempting
> to PLL one thing to another is that you have to find a balance between
> phase control and frequency stability.
>
> You’re going to always be reacting to the phase drift of your disciplined
> device. Your “knob” for doing so is to adjust (probably in steps) the
> frequency. If your PLL is very “twitchy,” then you’re going to move that
> knob very quickly and firmly, resulting in very tight phase control, but a
> frequency that, at least over a short term, will jump around a bit.
>
> By contrast, if you are very reluctant to move the “knob,” then you’re
> going to move it so slowly that by the time you have a meaningful effect on
> the phase, the phase will have drifted quite a bit. That said, your
> movement of the frequency knob will be so slow that the frequency stability
> would be much better, at least over the short term.
>
> In essence, this is choosing the PLL time constant. How you do so depends
> on the behavior of your device as well as the stability you desire from the
> output.
>
> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 5:20 AM, Peter Reilley 
> wrote:
> >
> > I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time
> it is.
> > To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
> >
> > I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.
>  I also
> > have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against
> my Trimble
> > Resolution T GPS receiver.
> >
> > I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
> TCXO
> > signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
> TCXO's are
> > already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of
> a waveform.
> > I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
> correction.
> >
> > I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than
> 1/2
> > of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for
> a few seconds
> > then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to
> be confident
> > that I have not slipped one cycle.
> >
> > Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
> >
> > Pete.
> >
> > ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

I’m going to try and describe my thoughts, but it may not come out as “right” 
as some others here can do. Still…

One problem you’re going to run into if you go down the road of attempting to 
PLL one thing to another is that you have to find a balance between phase 
control and frequency stability.

You’re going to always be reacting to the phase drift of your disciplined 
device. Your “knob” for doing so is to adjust (probably in steps) the 
frequency. If your PLL is very “twitchy,” then you’re going to move that knob 
very quickly and firmly, resulting in very tight phase control, but a frequency 
that, at least over a short term, will jump around a bit.

By contrast, if you are very reluctant to move the “knob,” then you’re going to 
move it so slowly that by the time you have a meaningful effect on the phase, 
the phase will have drifted quite a bit. That said, your movement of the 
frequency knob will be so slow that the frequency stability would be much 
better, at least over the short term.

In essence, this is choosing the PLL time constant. How you do so depends on 
the behavior of your device as well as the stability you desire from the output.

> On Nov 3, 2016, at 5:20 AM, Peter Reilley  wrote:
> 
> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it is.
> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
> 
> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.   I 
> also
> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my 
> Trimble
> Resolution T GPS receiver.
> 
> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz TCXO
> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The TCXO's 
> are
> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a 
> waveform.
> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth correction.
> 
> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than 1/2
> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a few 
> seconds
> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be 
> confident
> that I have not slipped one cycle.
> 
> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
> 
> Pete.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Scott Stobbe]

Bob has stated this, but perhaps not emphasized that, when you sample the
phase of a 10 MHz clock once a second, you are essentially folding the 20
millionth nyquist band down to baseband. So you can alias any integer
multiple of 1 Hz as if it were 10 MHz, i.e. 10 MHz + 1Hz will hold phase to
1 Hz (sampled once a second) just as well as 10 MHz would.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> If your TCXO is off by 1 ppm, it will slip 10 cycles per second at 10 MHz.
> If it is off by 0.1 ppm it will slip a full cycle at 10 MHz.
> If it is off by 0.01 ppm *and* uses some sort of digital compensation, it
> will hop around.
> If the GPS is not sawtooth corrected it will hop by a good fraction of a
> cycle at 10 MHz
> If the GPS is not surveyed in and seeing many satellites, it may hop by
> more than a cycle at 10 MHz.
>
> Best bet:
>
> Divide the TCXO down to a much lower frequency (< 100 Hz). Use the 5370 to
> look at the
> delta between the GPS pulse and the TCXO output.
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Peter Reilley 
> wrote:
> >
> > I am using the 1 PPS for the trigger.
> >
> > Pete.
> >
> >
> > On 11/3/2016 8:59 AM, Antonio A. S. Magalhaes wrote:
> >>
> >> Pete,
> >>
> >> Tell us about your trigger: where is it?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Antonio/CT1TE
> >>
> >> ---
> >>
> >> A 2016-11-03 12:20, Peter Reilley escreveu:
> >>
> >>> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what
> time it is.
> >>> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
> >>>
> >>> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO
> option.   I also
> >>> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them
> against my Trimble
> >>> Resolution T GPS receiver.
> >>>
> >>> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10
> MHz TCXO
> >>> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
> TCXO's are
> >>> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction
> of a waveform.
> >>> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
> correction.
> >>>
> >>> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more
> than 1/2
> >>> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady
> for a few seconds
> >>> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to
> be confident
> >>> that I have not slipped one cycle.
> >>>
> >>> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
> >>>
> >>> Pete.
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com  time-nuts@febo.com>
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If your TCXO is off by 1 ppm, it will slip 10 cycles per second at 10 MHz. 
If it is off by 0.1 ppm it will slip a full cycle at 10 MHz. 
If it is off by 0.01 ppm *and* uses some sort of digital compensation, it will 
hop around.
If the GPS is not sawtooth corrected it will hop by a good fraction of a cycle 
at 10 MHz
If the GPS is not surveyed in and seeing many satellites, it may hop by more 
than a cycle at 10 MHz. 

Best bet:

Divide the TCXO down to a much lower frequency (< 100 Hz). Use the 5370 to look 
at the 
delta between the GPS pulse and the TCXO output.

Bob


> On Nov 3, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Peter Reilley  wrote:
> 
> I am using the 1 PPS for the trigger.
> 
> Pete.
> 
> 
> On 11/3/2016 8:59 AM, Antonio A. S. Magalhaes wrote:
>> 
>> Pete,
>> 
>> Tell us about your trigger: where is it?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Antonio/CT1TE
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> A 2016-11-03 12:20, Peter Reilley escreveu:
>> 
>>> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it 
>>> is.
>>> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
>>> 
>>> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.   I 
>>> also
>>> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my 
>>> Trimble
>>> Resolution T GPS receiver.
>>> 
>>> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz TCXO
>>> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The TCXO's 
>>> are
>>> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a 
>>> waveform.
>>> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth correction.
>>> 
>>> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than 1/2
>>> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a 
>>> few seconds
>>> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be 
>>> confident
>>> that I have not slipped one cycle.
>>> 
>>> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
>>> 
>>> Pete.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Scott Stobbe]

You can also use your counter to directly measure your GPS receiver's 1PPS,
which ends up being the error of your internal timebase. (plus the error in
your 1PPS)

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:20 AM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it
> is.
> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
>
> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.
>  I also
> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my
> Trimble
> Resolution T GPS receiver.
>
> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
> TCXO
> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
> TCXO's are
> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a
> waveform.
> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
> correction.
>
> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than
> 1/2
> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a
> few seconds
> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be
> confident
> that I have not slipped one cycle.
>
> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
>
> Pete.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Chris Albertson]

There is a problem with you plan.You are looking at the relative phase
of a reference pule and an oscillator, just once.The pulse moves
around, even on a good GPS receive.  So what you really have to do is
compare the phase of the oscillator to the AVERAGE phase of the reference.
  You have to look at many pulses.  This is hard to do what what many
people do is build/buy a GPSDO that sets an oscillator to the running
average GPS PPS pulse then compare the sine wave of the GPS to the
oscillator under test.

Now if working only by eyeball and screwdriver you can still make a GPSDO.
You are the controller.  Every second you try and adjust (say) 10% or the
error out of the oscillator and just keep doing this for hours.
Eventually you thing "A $4 micro controller could do this better than I an
and it will not fall asleep after 10 or 20 hours of work."   So you spend
the $4 and have a real GPSDO.   But you could continue by hand.

Now you have a known-good sine wave use that to compare with your others

But then you start thinking,   Is the known good sine wave really good.
How good? Can I measure it?Yes but you will need to build/buy a two
more GPSDOs and run a three-way compare.

Then you see that at least one of the GPSDOs is not as good as the others
so you upgrade it.   Then of course one of the other two is now the poorest
performer, so you upgrade it

Then you do all this and likely you forget and have to ask "Why was it I
needed a good clock?"

In theory is is simple:  You can't calibrate anything without bringing an
external standard into you lab.  GPS is the best one for this use.But
even the GPS PPS is not 100% stable so you need to average tens, or
thousands of them.   The number of them you can average depends on the
stability of your oscillator.   That's it the rest is just math.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 5:20 AM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it
> is.
> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
>
> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.
>  I also
> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my
> Trimble
> Resolution T GPS receiver.
>
> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
> TCXO
> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
> TCXO's are
> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a
> waveform.
> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
> correction.
>
> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than
> 1/2
> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a
> few seconds
> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be
> confident
> that I have not slipped one cycle.
>
> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
>
> Pete.
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Tim Shoppa]

Well, which 1PPS is the trigger? Is it from a "bare GPS"?

Even the GPS timing units will have the (un-sawtooth-corrected) PPS phase
make jumps by 20ns to 40ns peak-to-peak and that's a significant portion of
the 100ns  period of your 10MHz.

Typical unsawtooth-corrected PPS phase jumps:
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/m12/sawtooth.htm

Tim N3QE



On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> I am using the 1 PPS for the trigger.
>
> Pete.
>
>
> On 11/3/2016 8:59 AM, Antonio A. S. Magalhaes wrote:
>
>>
>> Pete,
>>
>> Tell us about your trigger: where is it?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Antonio/CT1TE
>>
>> ---
>>
>> A 2016-11-03 12:20, Peter Reilley escreveu:
>>
>> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time
>>> it is.
>>> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
>>>
>>> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.
>>>  I also
>>> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against
>>> my Trimble
>>> Resolution T GPS receiver.
>>>
>>> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
>>> TCXO
>>> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
>>> TCXO's are
>>> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of
>>> a waveform.
>>> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
>>> correction.
>>>
>>> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than
>>> 1/2
>>> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for
>>> a few seconds
>>> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to
>>> be confident
>>> that I have not slipped one cycle.
>>>
>>> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Antonio A. S. Magalhaes]

Pete, 

Tell us about your trigger: where is it? 

Regards, 

Antonio/CT1TE

--- 

A 2016-11-03 12:20, Peter Reilley escreveu:

> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it is.
> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
> 
> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.   I 
> also
> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my 
> Trimble
> Resolution T GPS receiver.
> 
> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz TCXO
> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The TCXO's 
> are
> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a 
> waveform.
> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth correction.
> 
> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than 1/2
> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a few 
> seconds
> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be 
> confident
> that I have not slipped one cycle.
> 
> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
> 
> Pete.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[paul swed]

"Danger Wil Robinson"
There you go good old time nuttery. Pete its bad to start to compare
things. Because then you have questions. That leads to the need for a
better reference.
Around and around it goes.
TCXO's for my 2 cents really tend to introduce variables. Yes better then a
free standing crystal in general. Some of the HPs actually used a true free
standing crystal. 5335 and 5328 as I recall.
By locking all of the counters together you at least limitthat variable to
the source.
Given the cost of GPSDOs that would give you a pretty good arrangement then.
Have fun
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:20 AM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time it
> is.
> To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.
>
> I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO option.
>  I also
> have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against my
> Trimble
> Resolution T GPS receiver.
>
> I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz
> TCXO
> signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The
> TCXO's are
> already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of a
> waveform.
> I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth
> correction.
>
> I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than
> 1/2
> of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for a
> few seconds
> then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to be
> confident
> that I have not slipped one cycle.
>
> Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?
>
> Pete.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Peter Reilley]

I am using the 1 PPS for the trigger.

Pete.


On 11/3/2016 8:59 AM, Antonio A. S. Magalhaes wrote:


Pete,

Tell us about your trigger: where is it?

Regards,

Antonio/CT1TE

---

A 2016-11-03 12:20, Peter Reilley escreveu:

I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what 
time it is.

To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.

I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO 
option.   I also
have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them 
against my Trimble

Resolution T GPS receiver.

I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz TCXO
signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The 
TCXO's are
already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction 
of a waveform.

I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth correction.

I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than 1/2
of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady 
for a few seconds
then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much 
to be confident

that I have not slipped one cycle.

Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?

Pete.

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[time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Peter Reilley]

I am the proverbial man with too many clocks and I don't know what time 
it is.

To correct this situation I have decided to calibrate everything.

I have a HP 5370B, a HP 6370A, and a HP 5328A all with the TCXO 
option.   I also
have some TCXO modules.   I figured that I would calibrate them against 
my Trimble

Resolution T GPS receiver.

I put the 1 PPS signal in one channel of my scope and one of the 10 MHz TCXO
signals in the other channel and look at the phase relationship. The 
TCXO's are
already close enough that I should not be out by more than a fraction of 
a waveform.

I understand that I have to deal with the 1 PPS without sawtooth correction.

I expected to see the 10 MHz signal bounce around but not move more than 1/2
of a wave length.   Instead I see the 10 MHz waveform appear steady for 
a few seconds
then jump a significant portion of the wave.   The jump is too much to 
be confident

that I have not slipped one cycle.

Can I do what I am trying to do or am I missing something?

Pete.

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