Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Anders Wallin]

>
> rich...@karlquist.com said:
> > 2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A, would be replaced by
> > optical pumping.  Len Cutler was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management
> > wouldn't fund this effort.
>
> > It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping is not ready for
> prime
> > time in a working standard because the lasers drift over time.
>
> Is there something fundamental in there, or is the lack of products because
> nobody has made the big investment required to figure out how to do it.
>

FWIW, OSA has been giving at leat one talk per year on their optical Cs
work, and as others have noted it's been coming "real soon" for a couple of
years now.
Here are some links:
2015 November:
http://www.chronos.co.uk/files/pdfs/itsf/2015/day2/1410_High_performance_optically-pumped_cesium_beam_clock-PBerthoud-Oscilloquartz.pdf

2017 April:
https://www.atis.org/wsts/library/2017/5-03_Oscilloquartz_Berthoud_Michaud_Optical%20Cs%20Beam%20clock%20for%20ePRTC%20applications_revision20170327.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Bruce Griffiths]

External cavity lasers with piezoelectric tuning (usually varies cavity length 
or tilts frequency selective grating) are usually used for such applications.

Sacher laser do some compact units with integrated Peltier cooler etc:

https://www.sacher-laser.com/home/industrial-lasers/point_and_line_laser_module/industrial_laser_modules/micron_laser.html

To get pricing registration is required.

They aren't cheap (a few thousand or so euros IIRC) but not too outrageous.

Bruce

> 
> On 04 March 2018 at 21:21 Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 03/04/2018 04:04 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > When I was working on fiber optic communication test,
> > I remember hearing about lasers that were "tuned" with
> > variable Peltier coolers. Power consumption is critical in
> > a cesium standard that can run on batteries. Maybe
> > the power consumption of the coolers is a deal breaker.
> > 
> > > 
> The peltier elements is needed and nowdays integrated with laserdiodes.
> For telecom lasers, which is fully integrated, wavelength shift with
> temperature and Peltier elements is needed to temperature-stabilize them
> when you run DWDM, which is the telecom scenario which is close, as the
> ITU-T channels is 100 GHz apart on a 199 THz base for the 1550 nm window.
> 
> So, peltier elements is needed for sure.
> 
> However, I wonder if there really is much power involved.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> > > 
> > Rick
> > 
> > On 3/3/2018 6:18 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > > rich...@karlquist.com said:
> > > 
> > > > > > >1. Magnetic state selection, 
> > > as used in the 5071A, would be replaced by
> > > >   optical pumping. Len Cutler was heartbroken that 
> > > > HP/Agilent management
> > > >   wouldn't fund this effort.
> > > > 
> > > > It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping is 
> > > > not ready for
> > > > prime
> > > > time in a working standard because the lasers drift 
> > > > over time.
> > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > Is there something fundamental in there, or is the lack of 
> > > products
> > > because
> > > nobody has made the big investment required to figure out how 
> > > to do it.
> > > 
> > > What is the bandwidth of the laser? What happens if it drifts
> > > slightly? Can
> > > it be servoed? ...
> > > 
> > > ___
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> > > and follow the instructions there.
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> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 03/04/2018 04:04 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> When I was working on fiber optic communication test,
> I remember hearing about lasers that were "tuned" with
> variable Peltier coolers.  Power consumption is critical in
> a cesium standard that can run on batteries.  Maybe
> the power consumption of the coolers is a deal breaker.

The peltier elements is needed and nowdays integrated with laserdiodes.
For telecom lasers, which is fully integrated, wavelength shift with
temperature and Peltier elements is needed to temperature-stabilize them
when you run DWDM, which is the telecom scenario which is close, as the
ITU-T channels is 100 GHz apart on a 199 THz base for the 1550 nm window.

So, peltier elements is needed for sure.

However, I wonder if there really is much power involved.

Cheers,
Magnus

> Rick
> 
> On 3/3/2018 6:18 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> rich...@karlquist.com said:
>>> 2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A, would be replaced by
>>> optical pumping.  Len Cutler was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management
>>> wouldn't fund this effort.
>>
>>> It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping is not ready for
>>> prime
>>> time in a working standard because the lasers drift over time.
>>
>> Is there something fundamental in there, or is the lack of products
>> because
>> nobody has made the big investment required to figure out how to do it.
>>
>> What is the bandwidth of the laser?  What happens if it drifts
>> slightly?  Can
>> it be servoed?  ...
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 04.03.2018 um 04:04 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist:

When I was working on fiber optic communication test,
I remember hearing about lasers that were "tuned" with
variable Peltier coolers.  Power consumption is critical in
a cesium standard that can run on batteries.  Maybe
the power consumption of the coolers is a deal breaker.

I have seen that stunt at SHF Design in Berlin, don't dare to
calculate how long ago..

There were 2 lasers mixed with a 60 GHz beat frequency.
Playing with one of the Peltiers moved that to 50 GHz.
Easy to see the carrier creep on the spectrum analyzer.

Cheers, Gerhard


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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

When I was working on fiber optic communication test,
I remember hearing about lasers that were "tuned" with
variable Peltier coolers.  Power consumption is critical in
a cesium standard that can run on batteries.  Maybe
the power consumption of the coolers is a deal breaker.

Rick

On 3/3/2018 6:18 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

Thanks.


rich...@karlquist.com said:

2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A, would be replaced by
optical pumping.  Len Cutler was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management
wouldn't fund this effort.



It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping is not ready for prime
time in a working standard because the lasers drift over time.


Is there something fundamental in there, or is the lack of products because
nobody has made the big investment required to figure out how to do it.

What is the bandwidth of the laser?  What happens if it drifts slightly?  Can
it be servoed?  ...




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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Hal Murray]

Thanks.


rich...@karlquist.com said:
> 2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A, would be replaced by
> optical pumping.  Len Cutler was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management
> wouldn't fund this effort. 

> It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping is not ready for prime
> time in a working standard because the lasers drift over time.

Is there something fundamental in there, or is the lack of products because 
nobody has made the big investment required to figure out how to do it.

What is the bandwidth of the laser?  What happens if it drifts slightly?  Can 
it be servoed?  ...



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Magnus Danielson]

Rick,

On 03/03/2018 03:30 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> I asked the CBT manager at Microsemi about this
> rumor and he disavowed any knowledge of this.
> He told me they were making 8 a week (not clear
> if this is just 5071A's, or includes replacement
> CBT's).  I don't remember the production ever
> being anywhere near this level.  The reason
> for the relatively brisk sales is that the risk
> of GPS spoofing means that various military and
> 3 letter agencies need to own dedicated 5071's.
> With a large installed base of 5071's, there will
> be a guaranteed market for replacement tubes.
> The US government considers the 5071A to be of
> great strategic importance and would be certain
> to "encourage" its continued production in case
> of any business reorganization.
> 
> When we designed the 5071A twenty five years ago,
> it seemed that there were two safe bets:
> 
> 1.  Working Cs standards (outside the lab) would
> obsoleted by what HP called "smart clocks" running
> off of GPS.

We sure have seen more or less "smart" clocks being put into use an
decommissioned for hobbyists delight.

> 2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A,
> would be replaced by optical pumping.  Len Cutler
> was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management wouldn't
> fund this effort.

Interestingly enough, Oscilloquartz claim to have one, showcasing it
etc. but it's been "coming real soon" for a bit of a time now. I do not
know how that progresses.

> It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping
> is not ready for prime time in a working standard
> because the lasers drift over time.

Moving a technology from the lab environment into production is indeed a
challenge.

> The 5071A's claim to fame is that you turn it on and it just
> works ... until it runs out of cesium.  That is
> another reason the 5071A isn't going away any time soon.

It belongs clearly to the moderns cesiums which just operates and trims
up itself well. In my basement I currently have two where one had a
workiing CBT and failing electronics while the other had failed CBT and
working electronics. So I got to long-time borrow them to swap tubes and
use them. :)

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

There’s a big chunk of sales under the “not semiconductor” side of Microsemi.  
It may
not be big compared to an $8 billion sell price, but it’s not a trivial part of 
the company. 
Exactly what happens to things like the 5071 … we’ll see …..

How the sales policies of one or the other  company impact the new combine 
after a deal 
is always a bit unclear.  It may be a few years before that all gets worked 
out. Not all 
mergers get sorted on the first day. Their statement about $300 Million savings 
in the
third year might suggest a slow-er approach to consolidation. 

Bob

> On Mar 3, 2018, at 12:45 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
> <li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
> 
> There is an announcement of the impending purchase on the Microchip website.
> 
> From my perspective this is a good thing as I've been eyeing some of the
> microsemi semiconductor products for some time for use in various designs
> of mine and this is likely to make those products easier to incorporate due
> to the microchip sales policies.
> 
> Not sure how this will work for the finished products they sell as
> historically microchip has only been a semiconductor maker.  It wouldn't be
> surprising to see microchip divest themselves of the assembled product
> line.  I know microchip has divested themselves of small portions of
> acquired businesses in the past when they didn't fit their roadmap.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 3, 2018 8:48 AM, "ewkehren via time-nuts" <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> The manager many not know but the market does and there have been
>> announcements and the stock is up and for the day the fifth most active of
>> all US markets. At 2 pm #2Bert Kehren
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
>>  Original message From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <
>> rich...@karlquist.com> Date: 3/3/18  9:30 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion
>> of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>, Anders
>> Wallin <anders.e.e.wal...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi
>> up for sale?
>> I asked the CBT manager at Microsemi about this
>> rumor and he disavowed any knowledge of this.
>> He told me they were making 8 a week (not clear
>> if this is just 5071A's, or includes replacement
>> CBT's).  I don't remember the production ever
>> being anywhere near this level.  The reason
>> for the relatively brisk sales is that the risk
>> of GPS spoofing means that various military and
>> 3 letter agencies need to own dedicated 5071's.
>> With a large installed base of 5071's, there will
>> be a guaranteed market for replacement tubes.
>> The US government considers the 5071A to be of
>> great strategic importance and would be certain
>> to "encourage" its continued production in case
>> of any business reorganization.
>> 
>> When we designed the 5071A twenty five years ago,
>> it seemed that there were two safe bets:
>> 
>> 1.  Working Cs standards (outside the lab) would
>> obsoleted by what HP called "smart clocks" running
>> off of GPS.
>> 
>> 2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A,
>> would be replaced by optical pumping.  Len Cutler
>> was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management wouldn't
>> fund this effort.
>> 
>> It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping
>> is not ready for prime time in a working standard
>> because the lasers drift over time.  The 5071A's
>> claim to fame is that you turn it on and it just
>> works ... until it runs out of cesium.  That is
>> another reason the 5071A isn't going away any time soon.
>> 
>> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>> Member: 5071A design team
>> 
>> On 3/3/2018 1:22 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
>>> Just a change to the last part of the name then ;)
>>> https://www.ft.com/content/10192a2a-1d99-11e8-956a-43db76e69936
>>> "semi" -> "chip"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Perhaps of interest to the list
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Clint.
>>>> 
>>>> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
>> number
>>>> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
>>>> ___
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>

Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

There is an announcement of the impending purchase on the Microchip website.

>From my perspective this is a good thing as I've been eyeing some of the
microsemi semiconductor products for some time for use in various designs
of mine and this is likely to make those products easier to incorporate due
to the microchip sales policies.

Not sure how this will work for the finished products they sell as
historically microchip has only been a semiconductor maker.  It wouldn't be
surprising to see microchip divest themselves of the assembled product
line.  I know microchip has divested themselves of small portions of
acquired businesses in the past when they didn't fit their roadmap.



On Mar 3, 2018 8:48 AM, "ewkehren via time-nuts" <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> The manager many not know but the market does and there have been
> announcements and the stock is up and for the day the fifth most active of
> all US markets. At 2 pm #2Bert Kehren
>
>
> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
>  Original message From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <
> rich...@karlquist.com> Date: 3/3/18  9:30 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion
> of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>, Anders
> Wallin <anders.e.e.wal...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi
> up for sale?
> I asked the CBT manager at Microsemi about this
> rumor and he disavowed any knowledge of this.
> He told me they were making 8 a week (not clear
> if this is just 5071A's, or includes replacement
> CBT's).  I don't remember the production ever
> being anywhere near this level.  The reason
> for the relatively brisk sales is that the risk
> of GPS spoofing means that various military and
> 3 letter agencies need to own dedicated 5071's.
> With a large installed base of 5071's, there will
> be a guaranteed market for replacement tubes.
> The US government considers the 5071A to be of
> great strategic importance and would be certain
> to "encourage" its continued production in case
> of any business reorganization.
>
> When we designed the 5071A twenty five years ago,
> it seemed that there were two safe bets:
>
> 1.  Working Cs standards (outside the lab) would
> obsoleted by what HP called "smart clocks" running
> off of GPS.
>
> 2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A,
> would be replaced by optical pumping.  Len Cutler
> was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management wouldn't
> fund this effort.
>
> It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping
> is not ready for prime time in a working standard
> because the lasers drift over time.  The 5071A's
> claim to fame is that you turn it on and it just
> works ... until it runs out of cesium.  That is
> another reason the 5071A isn't going away any time soon.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> Member: 5071A design team
>
> On 3/3/2018 1:22 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
> > Just a change to the last part of the name then ;)
> > https://www.ft.com/content/10192a2a-1d99-11e8-956a-43db76e69936
> > "semi" -> "chip"
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps of interest to the list
> >>
> >> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/
> >>
> >> --
> >> Clint.
> >>
> >> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
> number
> >> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> >> ___
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[ewkehren via time-nuts]

The manager many not know but the market does and there have been announcements 
and the stock is up and for the day the fifth most active of all US markets. At 
2 pm #2    Bert Kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
<rich...@karlquist.com> Date: 3/3/18  9:30 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of 
precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>, Anders Wallin 
<anders.e.e.wal...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale? 
I asked the CBT manager at Microsemi about this
rumor and he disavowed any knowledge of this.
He told me they were making 8 a week (not clear
if this is just 5071A's, or includes replacement
CBT's).  I don't remember the production ever
being anywhere near this level.  The reason
for the relatively brisk sales is that the risk
of GPS spoofing means that various military and
3 letter agencies need to own dedicated 5071's.
With a large installed base of 5071's, there will
be a guaranteed market for replacement tubes.
The US government considers the 5071A to be of
great strategic importance and would be certain
to "encourage" its continued production in case
of any business reorganization.

When we designed the 5071A twenty five years ago,
it seemed that there were two safe bets:

1.  Working Cs standards (outside the lab) would
obsoleted by what HP called "smart clocks" running
off of GPS.

2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A,
would be replaced by optical pumping.  Len Cutler
was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management wouldn't
fund this effort.

It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping
is not ready for prime time in a working standard
because the lasers drift over time.  The 5071A's
claim to fame is that you turn it on and it just
works ... until it runs out of cesium.  That is
another reason the 5071A isn't going away any time soon.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
Member: 5071A design team

On 3/3/2018 1:22 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
> Just a change to the last part of the name then ;)
> https://www.ft.com/content/10192a2a-1d99-11e8-956a-43db76e69936
> "semi" -> "chip"
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps of interest to the list
>>
>> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/
>>
>> --
>> Clint.
>>
>> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
>> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

I asked the CBT manager at Microsemi about this
rumor and he disavowed any knowledge of this.
He told me they were making 8 a week (not clear
if this is just 5071A's, or includes replacement
CBT's).  I don't remember the production ever
being anywhere near this level.  The reason
for the relatively brisk sales is that the risk
of GPS spoofing means that various military and
3 letter agencies need to own dedicated 5071's.
With a large installed base of 5071's, there will
be a guaranteed market for replacement tubes.
The US government considers the 5071A to be of
great strategic importance and would be certain
to "encourage" its continued production in case
of any business reorganization.

When we designed the 5071A twenty five years ago,
it seemed that there were two safe bets:

1.  Working Cs standards (outside the lab) would
obsoleted by what HP called "smart clocks" running
off of GPS.

2.  Magnetic state selection, as used in the 5071A,
would be replaced by optical pumping.  Len Cutler
was heartbroken that HP/Agilent management wouldn't
fund this effort.

It turns out that, even now in 2018, optical pumping
is not ready for prime time in a working standard
because the lasers drift over time.  The 5071A's
claim to fame is that you turn it on and it just
works ... until it runs out of cesium.  That is
another reason the 5071A isn't going away any time soon.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
Member: 5071A design team

On 3/3/2018 1:22 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:

Just a change to the last part of the name then ;)
https://www.ft.com/content/10192a2a-1d99-11e8-956a-43db76e69936
"semi" -> "chip"


On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:


Perhaps of interest to the list

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/

--
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Anders Wallin]

Just a change to the last part of the name then ;)
https://www.ft.com/content/10192a2a-1d99-11e8-956a-43db76e69936
"semi" -> "chip"


On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:

> Perhaps of interest to the list
>
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/
>
> --
> Clint.
>
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> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

I suspect that a lot of people are wondering who the buyer might be ….

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 6:27 PM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps of interest to the list
> 
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/
> 
> -- 
> Clint.
> 
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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[time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Clint Jay]

Perhaps of interest to the list

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/

-- 
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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