Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Hi Anthony, Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). -- Anthony 1) Does windows really implement NTP? I thought it was SNTP. 2) PC hardware running Linux/xBSD and the NTP reference implementation, runs very well att polling rates of 1024 seconds or longer. (Keeping sub 1ms accuracy towards local S1-servers.) -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Windows is SNTP. You can google w32time to get more info, but this is the gist of it: This finally brings us to KB article 939322: “Support boundary to configure the Windows Time service for high accuracy environments” “We do not guarantee and we do not support the accuracy of the W32Time service between nodes on a network. The W32Time service is not a full-featured NTP solution that meets time-sensitive application needs. The W32Time service is primarily designed to do the following: --- All the 32 bit code runs on WOW, which is why I wondered about native code. That is, maybe the program isn't as accurate under emulation. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
I ran it long enough to see that it didn't crash, but since it loaded up in the X86 part of win 7 64 bit, I didn't see the point of running it. I can run Meinberg if I want a 32 bit NTP. On 1/16/2012 11:43 PM, David J Taylor wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. http://sites.google.com/site/ntpserverspl/ntp-server-time-client-64 I was going to ask, Gary, have you used this software, have you seen any difference between 32-bit and 64-bit operation on Windows? I would have thought that you wouldn't see a lot of difference, but I could be wrong. The lack of visible source files on that site is rather putting me off! Cheers, David ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). -- Anthony Anthony, The built-in client does not support NTP fully - for example, reference clocks and the management functions. Tell me how accurate it is, for example. It doesn't respond to a standard: ntpq -p command - you need real NTP for that. My advice is to forget the Microsoft built-in client. Running updates more frequently than is necessary is not particularly server friendly. Properly configured, read NTP can be within milliseconds on Windows, and within a couple of hundred microseconds if you have a PPS source. Using interpolation, you can get far more precision out of a PC clock: http://www.lochan.org/2005/keith-cl/useful/win32time.html Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
1) Does windows really implement NTP? I thought it was SNTP. Apparently, in current versions of Windows, it is a home-cooked version of an NTP client. All I know is that my PC stays accurate within a very small fraction of a second while synchronizing from my NTP server (the UNIX machine sitting next to the Windows machine on my LAN), and I'm not using anything other than the standard Windows built-in client. About the only parameter I've adjusted has been the synchronization interval: by default, it's set to a week, and I've set it to seven minutes (synchronization costs nothing between two machines on a LAN). I used to use a payware synchronization client, but when I discovered that the built-in client was just fine as long as the polling interval was short enough, I stopped using the payware. The main problem with the built-in client just seems to be that it waits so long between synchronizations: days, in other words, whereas the average PC is off by several seconds each day if not constantly corrected. It's possible to improve the accuracy of system time enormously just by shortening the interval to once or twice a day, depending on how much accuracy you want or need. 2) PC hardware running Linux/xBSD and the NTP reference implementation, runs very well att polling rates of 1024 seconds or longer. (Keeping sub 1ms accuracy towards local S1-servers.) My BSD server keeps the master time for my (two-machine) LAN. Windows is a client to the BSD machine, which in turn is is a client to a couple of reliable time servers out on the Net. It all works extremely well and the machines tend to stay synchronized to well within perceptual accuracy, although I imagine they are probably out of sync by some milliseconds (or perhaps not!). I do occasionally see failed to synchronize on the Windows side when I try to force a synchronization, but when allowed to synchronize on its own, it's right on the mark. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
The built-in client does not support NTP fully - for example, reference clocks and the management functions. Tell me how accurate it is, for example. It is accurate enough that I can't see or hear a difference between the Windows machine and the BSD server to which it is synchronzed. All I've done is set the Windows client to synchronize every seven minutes, instead of every seven days, and I've pointed it to my server, instead of the default server. My advice is to forget the Microsoft built-in client. I don't have anything that requires accuracy better than I can perceive, and the Microsoft client provides that, so there's no need to install anything special. Running updates more frequently than is necessary is not particularly server friendly. My NTP server has nothing better to do, so it's not a problem. I wouldn't sync every seven minutes to an outside server. Properly configured, read NTP can be within milliseconds on Windows, and within a couple of hundred microseconds if you have a PPS source. It seems to do very well with the built-in client. I imagine that perceived accuracy is within 50 ms or so. Of course, others can do as they wish, but why install something special if the built-in client does well enough? I used to have something special (can't remember which product it was), but when I discovered that the regular client did just as well for my purposes, I removed it. Now, maybe a third-party client might work better if you update at longer intervals, but in my case my NTP server is on the same table, so there's no reason not to update at very frequent intervals. I'd be surprised by any client that could keep the machine accurate for 7-day intervals, though, given how crummy PC real-time clocks tend to be. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Of course, others can do as they wish, but why install something special if the built-in client does well enough? I used to have something special (can't remember which product it was), but when I discovered that the regular client did just as well for my purposes, I removed it. [] -- Anthony I answered your first question on my Web page here: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html#why Should you become interested in precise time (look at the list name!), you may well remove the built-in client, and move to the Windows port or reference NTP. If what you have works well enough for you (and I note your comments about your server and LAN setup), and you can manage and control it as well as you need, no need to change. By the way, our application requires the time to be within a second or so - it's for determining aircraft position by multilateration. The Windows port of reference what we recommend. Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:46:19 +0100, Anthony G. Atkielski anth...@atkielski.com wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). I have had problems with the build in Windows NTP client getting confused or giving up and then neglecting to mention the problem so I still use Tardis: http://www.kaska.demon.co.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:09 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
I don't have any compilers on the windows box. In any event, the idea was to bypass WOW. It was never an address space issue. Hence the native request. -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:17:51 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:09 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. I don't either - for user mode code running on the x64 (aka amd64) architecture anyway. My experience is that 64bit cpu intensive code that doesn't need the wider address space is slower than the equivalent 32bit code. This is especially true if the code does a lot of memory management - and if you are using C++ and std and/or boost libraries, there is a lot of memory management going on behind the scenes. Plain C wouldn't be so bad. WOW on x64 has a thin shim layer to interface to OS calls, which may be significant if you make a lot of OS calls, but again, I've not noticed it when profiling my software. If the CPU is other than x64 architecture, then 32bit code is emulated and for sure, you want a 64bit native version. If a kernel device driver is involved, then of course, there is no choice but to use a 64bit version of the driver. Still no need for 64bit user mode code though. Personally, I run 64bit 2008 Server at work and 32bit Windows 7 at home. Other than having to develop 64bit versions and drivers, I wouldn't chose to run 64bit Windows unless I had an application that really needed the extra address space. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
The intel 64 bit CPUs used the AMD64 instruction set. Note there are more instructions in the 64bit architecture, so some programs are more efficient under a 64 bit OS. -Original Message- From: Orin Eman orin.e...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:45:26 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. I don't either - for user mode code running on the x64 (aka amd64) architecture anyway. My experience is that 64bit cpu intensive code that doesn't need the wider address space is slower than the equivalent 32bit code. This is especially true if the code does a lot of memory management - and if you are using C++ and std and/or boost libraries, there is a lot of memory management going on behind the scenes. Plain C wouldn't be so bad. WOW on x64 has a thin shim layer to interface to OS calls, which may be significant if you make a lot of OS calls, but again, I've not noticed it when profiling my software. If the CPU is other than x64 architecture, then 32bit code is emulated and for sure, you want a 64bit native version. If a kernel device driver is involved, then of course, there is no choice but to use a 64bit version of the driver. Still no need for 64bit user mode code though. Personally, I run 64bit 2008 Server at work and 32bit Windows 7 at home. Other than having to develop 64bit versions and drivers, I wouldn't chose to run 64bit Windows unless I had an application that really needed the extra address space. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Note there are more instructions in the 64bit architecture, so some programs are more efficient under a 64 bit OS. That can be true. But NTP uses so little resources that that is very little to be gained. But if you do care about this the best and simplest solution (maybe the only solution) is to build from the source code. Anyone who distributes a ready-made executable is going to have to assume LCD, or lowest common denominator and build a binary that works on all CPU types. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: The intel 64 bit CPUs used the AMD64 instruction set. There are still some Itaniums around (which are not AMD64) which is why I made an exclusion for non-x64 architecture. Note there are more instructions in the 64bit architecture, so some programs are more efficient under a 64 bit OS. True. You just have to compile for both and profile them to see which is better for a given application. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. http://sites.google.com/site/ntpserverspl/ntp-server-time-client-64 This is an ugly thing to search since NTP itself makes reference to 64 bits, and non of the programs seem to specify native code. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. http://sites.google.com/site/ntpserverspl/ntp-server-time-client-64 This is an ugly thing to search since NTP itself makes reference to 64 bits, and non of the programs seem to specify native code. Thanks for that pointer, Gary. I do wish they said just what the setup.exe is going to install - with some application software I have no alternative except clicking on setup.exe, but with NTP I do feel the need to know more about what elements of my system are going to be altered as I already have a well-tuned NTP setup. Dave Hart has done a lot of work with NTP, including the Windows port, and his most recent work has resulted in very significant performance improvements for NTP 4.2.7p241 and later. These won't yet be in their 4.2.7p32. I also wonder whether their version includes support for the same reference clocks, and the Kernel-mode serial PPS driver which Dave has built. Perhaps Tomasz Widomski and/or p.marszalek should be invited to join either this list or NTP Hackers? Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. http://sites.google.com/site/ntpserverspl/ntp-server-time-client-64 I was going to ask, Gary, have you used this software, have you seen any difference between 32-bit and 64-bit operation on Windows? I would have thought that you wouldn't see a lot of difference, but I could be wrong. The lack of visible source files on that site is rather putting me off! Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
