Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination - control
Group, The effort to track power line frequency changes is laudable. I think the effort to determine the stiffness of the network by measuring the phase angle between GPS time and local line zero crossings is most interesting. But the following is about the frequency control problem. The main problem is that the amount of power that is stored in the distribution system is negligible. The generating station has no information about load changes until after they have happened. There is no lag time that allows derivative action to compensate. If the generating station is on an island with no connection to any grid, you can use a proportional controller with integral action to control the generator speed by manipulating the fuel valve to the engine. This can hold the generator quite close to your desired line frequency. But because it is feedback control, an error must be sensed before the fuel valve moves - cycles can be lost. It is still necessary to manually bias the fuel valve to match the error between the cycles generated and the GPS cycles elapsed. When generating stations are synchronously synchronized by the distribution network, a new problem arises. The stations can not all use integral action and maintain stable control. In fact, only one integral controller may be on such a network. The integral control comes from the area dispatcher, who integrates the cycles generated and compares them to the cycles to maintain 60.000+ cycles per second (in the degenerate West). I am not clear on how the dispatcher allocates frequency error to the area stations, or how they react to commands to change. But it seems to me that this is a control problem that can be solved without undue stress on the generating equipment. Perhaps it is as simple as a setpoint rate of change limit (can't be, 3000 people would have thought of that.) We welcome your comments with Enthusiasm. The references below are important. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiec bobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Folks, The Pacific Northwest National Laboratory has a couple of Grid Monitor tools as part of their Gridwise program that you can download. This gives a pretty good high resolution look at the grid frequency. (This is the frequency of the Western Interconnect.) If you're interested, check out http://gridwise.pnnl.gov/technologies/transactive_controls.stm The download buttons plus a link to a pdf on the program are in the bar on the right side under Transactive. While not the accumulated error due to TEC elimination, it will allow you to see how far off things get, not to mention see any large disturbances. There might be some interesting viewing there this summer. There is also more info available on their Gridwise program. Francis Grosz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. Most power distribution system products for use in the US I've seen are rated at 60 ± 3 Hz though some stuff from European manufacturers is rated at ± 2.5 Hz. I guess it's a holdover from 50 Hz specs. The power companies seem to spec normal variation at a max of 0.1 Hz though I understand the max offset they use by agreement for phase adjustment is about 0.02 Hz. A lot of large machinery has a a great deal of independence from the AC line frequency. Even a 60 year old paper mill I did some work for had a mechanical phase adjustment driven by large DC motors on the machines in their line. IIRC the controls guy said they could compensate for 1 Hz line frequency variations over 10 seconds. This was a lot faster than I expected. Paper mills have lots of spinning mass that takes a long time to influence. Oz (in DFW) -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Oz, Some companies in the US are producing 50 hz transformers in their mass produced units so they can readily sell them to the European market and here. That is a plus for us, if we buy one, as they will run a lot cooler, and last longer over it, when we apply 60 Hz to one. There's a bit more of an amount of iron in a 50 Hz, which means for the applied line voltage, the flux density will be lower, and thus, the whole thing will run cooler. However, for a European, 50 Hz, transformer, you'll have a multiple primary, if it's made to run here or there, as if I recall, their line voltage is about double what ours is. When I wrote most of the Wikibooks article on Transformer Design, I did a major study on transformers, and probably now have 30+ books on the subject alone. Some of the better information I read was written by Col. William T McLyman, in his series of books on the design of transformers for NASA. Another good book was written by engineers at MIT, and they still update it, since it was written in the 1940's. From them, though, I learned a good deal about their construction from wall-wart size, all they way up to the huge oil-filled ones, now sitiing at our power stations. Plus, I used to sell equipment to Kuhlman Electric, in Lexington, Ky., and another transformer manufacturer in Cincinnati, Foster Transformer, and was privy to how they built the things. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 6:44 AM Oz-in-DFW wrote: On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. Most power distribution system products for use in the US I've seen are rated at 60 ± 3 Hz though some stuff from European manufacturers is rated at ± 2.5 Hz. I guess it's a holdover from 50 Hz specs. The power companies seem to spec normal variation at a max of 0.1 Hz though I understand the max offset they use by agreement for phase adjustment is about 0.02 Hz. A lot of large machinery has a a great deal of independence from the AC line frequency. Even a 60 year old paper mill I did some work for had a mechanical phase adjustment driven by large DC motors on the machines in their line. IIRC the controls guy said they could compensate for 1 Hz line frequency variations over 10 seconds. This was a lot faster than I expected. Paper mills have lots of spinning mass that takes a long time to influence. Oz (in DFW) -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
In message 4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net, Oz-in-DFW writes: On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers. If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it. Anything else: Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Poul-Henning, Running the transformer that way won't burn it up at that instant, it just causes it to run hotter, because it's closer to saturation, and it shortens the life span a good bit. A lot of the new ones now being made, are wound to run on either frequency (wound for just under 50 Hz), so they can export them internationally. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 3:39 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net, Oz-in-DFW writes: On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers. If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it. Anything else: Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers. There are lots of consumer products sold in North America that specify 60 Hz only, and in which the transformers will hum and overheat if run on 50 Hz. I have always designed with transformers that will accept 47-63 Hz, but many competitors do not. As more and more items move to switching power supplies, this will be less of an issue (of course, in many applications the switching supplies themselves will create new issues...). Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
They were talking about a very small drift here. Even if the change were ten HOURS in a year, that's one part in 876. I highly doubt your shaver is going to be affected by grid tolerance. I wouldn't plug a 60 hz model into 50 hz, but that's different. From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp [p...@phk.freebsd.dk] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:39 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination In message 4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net, Oz-in-DFW writes: On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers. If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it. Anything else: Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Running the transformer that way won't burn it up at that instant, it just causes it to run hotter, because it's closer to saturation, and it shortens the life span a good bit. I have yet to hear of any evidence for that being a problem with US kit here in Denmark, probably because most kit is not run at the extreme top end of its temperature specification. I once was retained by a US manufacturer to determine why its high-end amps and preamps had a nearly 100% failure rate in Europe and Japan. It was their power transformers, which lacked sufficient core for 50 Hz operation -- they overheated and opened the internal thermal link. One customer had repaired his by digging out the thermal link and bypassing it with a short. His got hot enough to cook the paper and enamel and produce smoke. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
I picked up an older stereo amp to use its parts for a project. With no load at all, the power transformer runs uncomfortably hot. At 50 Hz it might make a good space heater for a while. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiec bobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
I use a Logitech Squeezebox radio in the bedroom. Network timed! I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. On 6/24/2011 5:50 PM, paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiec bobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, so setting clocks is a way of life. PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta Vista (now Cupertino), etc. On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. Each grid is in sync with itself. In the US, there are several grids. They aren't connected except maybe by DC lines. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
We have AEP here, but it's like you said, go out in the country where Buckeye Rual Elect. is, and you have outages all the time, and you don't want to live there in the winter. Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to vary. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 6:33 PM gary wrote: It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, so setting clocks is a way of life. PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta Vista (now Cupertino), etc. On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
The network phase varies across the country. Sometime figure out the WL of 60 Hz. -John = I use a Logitech Squeezebox radio in the bedroom. Network timed! I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. On 6/24/2011 5:50 PM, paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
I'd severly doubt they'd allow anything like 10%. Also remember that the peak flux, that determins saturation, is the integral of I dT, so you can run a 60 Hz transformer at 50 Hz if you reduce the input to 100 VAC instead of 120 VAC. -John === We have AEP here, but it's like you said, go out in the country where Buckeye Rual Elect. is, and you have outages all the time, and you don't want to live there in the winter. Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to vary. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 6:33 PM gary wrote: It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, so setting clocks is a way of life. PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta Vista (now Cupertino), etc. On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
John, That's true, but can the secondary voltage stand to drop that much? Let's say we have a 12 volt regulated circuit, and the design engineer used the minimum input voltage to the regulator of 13.4 volts, or 1.4 volts over the regulated value needed (I've seen this done). Dropping the line from say 120 Vac to 100 Vac would drop the secondary DC down to around 11.2 to 11.4 Vdc, well under the minimum supply voltage of 13.4 Vdc, and under the regulated value. When you get into plate transformers, with high winding ratios, the voltage drop gets a good bit different. However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 7:03 PM J. Forster wrote: I'd severly doubt they'd allow anything like 10%. Also remember that the peak flux, that determins saturation, is the integral of I dT, so you can run a 60 Hz transformer at 50 Hz if you reduce the input to 100 VAC instead of 120 VAC. -John === We have AEP here, but it's like you said, go out in the country where Buckeye Rual Elect. is, and you have outages all the time, and you don't want to live there in the winter. Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to vary. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 6:33 PM gary wrote: It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, so setting clocks is a way of life. PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta Vista (now Cupertino), etc. On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Line voltage variations is why reglated power supplies were invented. The point is that a small frequency change is not going to blow transformers. -John === John, That's true, but can the secondary voltage stand to drop that much? Let's say we have a 12 volt regulated circuit, and the design engineer used the minimum input voltage to the regulator of 13.4 volts, or 1.4 volts over the regulated value needed (I've seen this done). Dropping the line from say 120 Vac to 100 Vac would drop the secondary DC down to around 11.2 to 11.4 Vdc, well under the minimum supply voltage of 13.4 Vdc, and under the regulated value. When you get into plate transformers, with high winding ratios, the voltage drop gets a good bit different. However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 7:03 PM J. Forster wrote: I'd severly doubt they'd allow anything like 10%. Also remember that the peak flux, that determins saturation, is the integral of I dT, so you can run a 60 Hz transformer at 50 Hz if you reduce the input to 100 VAC instead of 120 VAC. -John === We have AEP here, but it's like you said, go out in the country where Buckeye Rual Elect. is, and you have outages all the time, and you don't want to live there in the winter. Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to vary. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 6:33 PM gary wrote: It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, so setting clocks is a way of life. PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta Vista (now Cupertino), etc. On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: change you can count on Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiecbobkup...@comcast.net wrote: AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks Time Error Correction Elimination - http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 NERC Report - June 14 - http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Hal, The speed differences below are for a two and four pole motor. Two Pole: 50 Hz: 3,000, 60 Hz: 3,600 Four Pole: 50 Hz: 1,500, 60 Hz:1,800 Those are not loaded speeds, however, 1800 / 1500 = 1.2 I mis-stated that post, it should have been 1.2 times greater than, or less than, the speed, but it's around 17%, I think, (17% of 1800 is 306 RPM). Thanks for catching that. I didn't see the graph, but in the case of 59.95 Hz, it wouldn't faze working motors or transformers enough to harm them, I would think. It would motors for clocks though, over a long time span. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 7:13 PM Hal Murray wrote: Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to vary. I think you are missing the decimal point. How do you get 1.2% from 50 to 60 Hz? I get 16%. The graph had events under 59.95 Hz. That's roughly 0.1%. http://tinyurl.com/6ytqsx7 http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:59 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: I use a Logitech Squeezebox radio in the bedroom. Network timed! I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. The big long distance transmission lines are high voltage DC. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
List, Gary wrote: PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta Vista (now Cupertino), etc. Gary, Now with great humility I must inform you that you are just aren’t looking at this from the right perspective and with the proper positive Left Coast spirit! Over thirty years ago a co-worker told me the given name to PGE by the natives was Pacific Graft and Extortion. He further asserted that they used un-marked corporate vehicles as this reduced obscene rants from the public as well as reducing keying damage and other types of vandalism to the vehicles. Now at least 30 years later their corporate modus operandi seems to remain unchanged. Just think. We now live in a world of 24/7 changes with things changing every day at breakneck speed so that we run full speed to stay even. So you should appreciate that even 30 years later, you have a constant entity you can count on that screws you over, just like Old Faithful in Yellowstone Park, with precise regularity. What other business private can make that claim? Now I haven’t done any research but I believe no other non-governmental entity can claim a record like that. Even MicroSoft doesn’t come close. Perhaps this amazing California record should be in the Guinness records somewhere near Grey Davis or maybe Charles Manson. RegardsG Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
On 6/24/11 6:47 PM, Hal Murray wrote: I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. Each grid is in sync with itself. In the US, there are several grids. They aren't connected except maybe by DC lines. all of the US is interconnected, except for Texas. That said there's not much interchange across the intermountain West (e.g. not much power is run from the Pacific coast across Utah and Colorado). This is why the Pacific coast will have less variation than the east coast. As others have pointed out, power flows are done by changing the relative phase of the two zones. You can either keep the power flows carefully net zero or you can keep the frequency the same, but not both. So what they do is try to have times when they don't need to flow power, so they can open the switch on the intertie, change the frequency for a while to get back to where they think they should be, then carefully resynchronize and reclose the switch. There are remarkably few DC interties to help. the big Pacific DC intertie is done not so much to flow power both ways (it's almost entirely southbound), but to make it even feasible to send power several thousand km. The alternate (AC) path down through the middle of California is a apparently a bear to keep stable, and transients can take tens of hours to die out. After all, that transmission line is starting to be a significant fraction of a wavelength at 60 Hz. (lambda in free space is 5000km.. prop velocity on a power line is quite a bit slower) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
On 6/24/11 8:20 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:59 PM, garyli...@lazygranch.com wrote: I use a Logitech Squeezebox radio in the bedroom. Network timed! I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. The big long distance transmission lines are high voltage DC. Most aren't. I don't recall the exact number, but less than half of the power flowing down the Pacific coast is carried by DC. (3-4 GW on the DC link.. 3000A at 1 MV..yeah, baby... that's a power line) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Mostly correct, but: As others have pointed out, power flows are done by changing the relative phase of the two zones. You can either keep the power flows carefully net zero or you can keep the frequency the same, but not both. When two parts of the system are interconnected, the frequency must be the same, except very briefly when the relative phase is being changed. The direction and size of the power flow over the link is controlled by the differential phase. So what they do is try to have times when they don't need to flow power, so they can open the switch on the intertie, change the frequency for a while to get back to where they think they should be, then carefully resynchronize and reclose the switch. And adjust the voltages to be equal. Bth phase and voltage have to be equal to avoid transients. There are remarkably few DC interties to help. the big Pacific DC intertie is done not so much to flow power both ways (it's almost entirely southbound), but to make it even feasible to send power several thousand km. The alternate (AC) path down through the middle of California is a apparently a bear to keep stable, and transients can take tens of hours to die out. The transients are very lightly damped, unless the generator rotors have quadrature windings with active controls. -John = After all, that transmission line is starting to be a significant fraction of a wavelength at 60 Hz. (lambda in free space is 5000km.. prop velocity on a power line is quite a bit slower) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
On 6/24/11 9:22 PM, Jim Lux wrote: On 6/24/11 8:20 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:59 PM, garyli...@lazygranch.com wrote: I use a Logitech Squeezebox radio in the bedroom. Network timed! I don't see how they connect grid that aren't totally in sync. The big long distance transmission lines are high voltage DC. Most aren't. I don't recall the exact number, but less than half of the power flowing down the Pacific coast is carried by DC. (3-4 GW on the DC link.. 3000A at 1 MV..yeah, baby... that's a power line) Just looked it up..4.8GW on AC, 3.1GW on DC. Stabilizing the 3 AC links is quite the chore.. (my dad's PhD advisor was involved in this.. it was one of the very early uses of computers, calculating loads and sources and stabilizing the networks) If you've ever seen that video of the huge drawn arc at a electrical substation during a test (the arc must be 50 feet long, at least), that was shot at Lugo substation, which is where the 500kV AC links terminate. The advent of GPS timing apparently made the whole controlling the network much easier, because it allowed high performance measurements of the phase at the ends of the links, which can then factor in to controls on things like synchronous condensors and the throttle on power plants. When they started to move away from mercury pool to solid state thyristors, that made life even easier. There are some enormous cycloconverters to do small frequency/phase changes. I find the scale of this stuff amazing, and the level of control needed to keep it all working is quite impressive. Sure, keeping measurement systems stable to 1 part in 1E15 over 20 minutes is a challenge... but at least all that stuff fits in one rack. Doing 1 degree kind of control on gigawatts of power is something I find really impressive. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
