Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Oh but thats what the marketing blurb even says. It hit me later that the thing that runs out is still the same CS oven Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 3:09 PM, Attila Kinaliwrote: > On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 19:25:28 + > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > > > >The A magnet being replaced by the A laser will for the same flow from > > >the cesium oven produce twice as much atoms and thus improve signal to > > >noise. > > > > It will generate more than twice the (usable) atoms, becuase the > > straight path is (almost) insensitive to their velocity distribution, > > whereas the corner-turning at the magnet is not. > > I am not sure if that holds true. The Ramsey cavity itself is > velocity sensitive/selective. So not all velocities contribute > the same to the resonance/peak. I do not know how much better/worse > this selectivity compared to the bending magnets is, though. > > Attila Kinali > > -- > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no > use without that foundation. > -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 19:25:28 + "Poul-Henning Kamp"wrote: > >The A magnet being replaced by the A laser will for the same flow from > >the cesium oven produce twice as much atoms and thus improve signal to > >noise. > > It will generate more than twice the (usable) atoms, becuase the > straight path is (almost) insensitive to their velocity distribution, > whereas the corner-turning at the magnet is not. I am not sure if that holds true. The Ramsey cavity itself is velocity sensitive/selective. So not all velocities contribute the same to the resonance/peak. I do not know how much better/worse this selectivity compared to the bending magnets is, though. Attila Kinali -- It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without that foundation. -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Here's some marketing eyewash for the thing... it has a 100 MHz output... http://www.heritek.com.cn/Private/Files/3037bb9d8c45dac855ad.pdf Darn it... I just bought a 5071A. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Hi Get a bigger bag :) Bob > On Mar 18, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Wojciech Owczarek> wrote: > > I tried lifting it but it wouldn't fit in my bag :( > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
I tried lifting it but it wouldn't fit in my bag :( ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Hi, On 03/18/2017 08:25 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message <2254f8a0-9ea7-e0d3-18d7-90918985c...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D anielson writes: The A magnet being replaced by the A laser will for the same flow from the cesium oven produce twice as much atoms and thus improve signal to noise. It will generate more than twice the (usable) atoms, becuase the straight path is (almost) insensitive to their velocity distribution, whereas the corner-turning at the magnet is not. True. I was just taking the state selection as such, not other actions ini the bending. Not sure if their "100x" claim holds, but it is not patently impossible. However, the slide-decks claim that atoms are "reused" is 100% bogus. Until tested, I would take such claims with not only one but several pinches salt. I also expect that the optical detection does not experience the same wear mechanisms as the traditional setup. Laser wear is however a concern, but easier to handle. That is probably why they have "two redundant laser modules", a complication they cannot possibly have accepted if they didn't need it. Indeed. It reduces the downtime, but even then you would have downtime to restore redundancy. Hotpluging would be an option, but that always take some mechanical headache to get working, but for optical stuff has become simpler these days. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Hi Paul, On 03/18/2017 03:32 PM, paul swed wrote: I am in the same frame of mind had the market, so no need to evolve. But also it seems the business segment is so small its unclear that there is a good business case to build them.These days if its not $B little interest. Chuckle. Hp dumped cesiums and test equipment and then symetricom was purchased by Microsemi. Pretty strange. All in all in the timing market the players seem to be all but gone. Some vendors have been unable to adapt, so they loose market share, cut products and markets and eventually end up selling the business to some large player, get consolidated and eventually vanish as a brand. Some of these created some product which fit a market very well, but later the solution for that market is tighter integrated and the market is gone, but there is still lots of timing in there. At the same time, others come in, silently builds larger and pick market shares. As always, things change. We time-nuts must be careful to save away all useful material when we can, so that we don't loose manuals, software, app-notes, etc. We cannot take for granted it will be there next year. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
In message <2254f8a0-9ea7-e0d3-18d7-90918985c...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D anielson writes: >The A magnet being replaced by the A laser will for the same flow from >the cesium oven produce twice as much atoms and thus improve signal to >noise. It will generate more than twice the (usable) atoms, becuase the straight path is (almost) insensitive to their velocity distribution, whereas the corner-turning at the magnet is not. Not sure if their "100x" claim holds, but it is not patently impossible. However, the slide-decks claim that atoms are "reused" is 100% bogus. >I also expect that the optical detection does not experience the >same wear mechanisms as the traditional setup. Laser wear is however a >concern, but easier to handle. That is probably why they have "two redundant laser modules", a complication they cannot possibly have accepted if they didn't need it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
In message <7765b488-bc22-d5af-3f62-d356e4aac...@karlquist.com>, "Richard (Rick ) Karlquist" writes: >NIST-7 has a reversible beam, which cancels out end to end phase >error in the CBT. That works in terms of being a frequency standard, >but not for a clock, because you don't have continuous operation. You could build one with two beams running opposite directions and still using the same laser light and RF field, but it would be more complicated. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Did take a look at the various papers. The older Osciliquartz document does overlap the new one. But the old one actually supplies more details. Good reads. It is interesting that the major consumable components like laser diodes are all external. So what is the true life of the unit. Pretty curious and suspect its far beyond 10 years. Also power consumption is 35 watts or a running savings of 30% over the 5071. Pretty sure we will see these on ebay in the next few years NOT Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 10:32 AM, paul swedwrote: > I am in the same frame of mind had the market, so no need to evolve. But > also it seems the business segment is so small its unclear that there is a > good business case to build them.These days if its not $B little interest. > Chuckle. > Hp dumped cesiums and test equipment and then symetricom was purchased by > Microsemi. Pretty strange. All in all in the timing market the players seem > to be all but gone. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > >> >> In message <45f89398-9302-80dc-3b9d-690802c46...@karlquist.com>, >> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" write >> s: >> >> >It is surprising that none of the various makers of the 5071A >> >ever made an optical version. I wonder what they are thinking >> >now that someone else has done it. >> >> Why would they ? >> >> They had a pretty good gig going with no competition... >> >> >> -- >> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 >> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 >> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe >> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by >> incompetence. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
I am in the same frame of mind had the market, so no need to evolve. But also it seems the business segment is so small its unclear that there is a good business case to build them.These days if its not $B little interest. Chuckle. Hp dumped cesiums and test equipment and then symetricom was purchased by Microsemi. Pretty strange. All in all in the timing market the players seem to be all but gone. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kampwrote: > > In message <45f89398-9302-80dc-3b9d-690802c46...@karlquist.com>, "Richard > (Rick) Karlquist" write > s: > > >It is surprising that none of the various makers of the 5071A > >ever made an optical version. I wonder what they are thinking > >now that someone else has done it. > > Why would they ? > > They had a pretty good gig going with no competition... > > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Rick, On 03/18/2017 05:32 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 3/18/2017 3:13 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: The NIST-7 was a optically pumped cesium beam, and a pre-cursor to the fountain clocks. There should be a bunch of papers on it. I am however somewhat wondering about if we will see this coming out of Oscilloquartz. We will see. NIST-7 has a reversible beam, which cancels out end to end phase error in the CBT. That works in terms of being a frequency standard, but not for a clock, because you don't have continuous operation. NIST-7 is also much longer than the 5071A or the Oscilloquartz offering. So they are not really comparable beyond sharing optical pumping. I think you misunderstood my comment quite a bit. It is merely a suggestion to find more articles on the topic of optical pumpning beams. One problem with the NIST-7 is also the poor S/N. It was used more for frequency than continuous clock, but free-wheeling on commercial clocks helps for the ensamble behavior. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
On 3/18/2017 3:13 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: The NIST-7 was a optically pumped cesium beam, and a pre-cursor to the fountain clocks. There should be a bunch of papers on it. I am however somewhat wondering about if we will see this coming out of Oscilloquartz. We will see. NIST-7 has a reversible beam, which cancels out end to end phase error in the CBT. That works in terms of being a frequency standard, but not for a clock, because you don't have continuous operation. NIST-7 is also much longer than the 5071A or the Oscilloquartz offering. So they are not really comparable beyond sharing optical pumping. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
The NIST-7 was a optically pumped cesium beam, and a pre-cursor to the fountain clocks. There should be a bunch of papers on it. If you look on the picture from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIST-7 You can see the optical bench on top of the electronics rack. The modern books go into length about the issues of laser pumping and detection, so there is plenty of material to work from. The A magnet being replaced by the A laser will for the same flow from the cesium oven produce twice as much atoms and thus improve signal to noise. I also expect that the optical detection does not experience the same wear mechanisms as the traditional setup. Laser wear is however a concern, but easier to handle. I am however somewhat wondering about if we will see this coming out of Oscilloquartz. We will see. Cheers, Magnus On 03/18/2017 09:05 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: An Early (~1980?) NS/FEI paper on optically pumped cesium beam tubes: http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/732.pdf Bruce On 18 March 2017 at 17:28 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"wrote: Len Cutler was all set to build an optically pumped Cs beam 20 years ago. Even then, he could get the lasers. He was only missing one thing: money. HP management never agreed to fund it. The paper conspicuously omits any spec on absolute accuracy. The optical pumping does nothing to improve that AFAIK. It still depends on phase error in the CBT. The 5071 has a guaranteed accuracy of 10^-12, and is typically several times better than that. It is surprising that none of the various makers of the 5071A ever made an optical version. I wonder what they are thinking now that someone else has done it. Rick On 3/17/2017 7:48 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: > > Looks like Oscilloquartz is getting ready to sell this commercially! Will give the 5071A a run for the money! Reliability should go way up as: -No electron multiplier -No ionizer filament -No state selection magnets Also all the fiddley bits (laser diodes and photodetectors) are external to the tube and can be easily updated as needed. https://www.slideshare.net/ADVAOpticalNetworking/performance-results-of-a n-optically-pumped-cesium-beam-clock Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
In message <45f89398-9302-80dc-3b9d-690802c46...@karlquist.com>, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" write s: >It is surprising that none of the various makers of the 5071A >ever made an optical version. I wonder what they are thinking >now that someone else has done it. Why would they ? They had a pretty good gig going with no competition... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
An Early (~1980?) NS/FEI paper on optically pumped cesium beam tubes: http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/732.pdf Bruce > > On 18 March 2017 at 17:28 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" >wrote: > > Len Cutler was all set to build an optically > pumped Cs beam 20 years ago. Even then, he could get the lasers. > He was only missing one thing: money. HP management never > agreed to fund it. The paper conspicuously omits any spec > on absolute accuracy. The optical pumping does nothing to > improve that AFAIK. It still depends on phase error in the CBT. > The 5071 has a guaranteed accuracy of 10^-12, and is typically > several times better than that. > > It is surprising that none of the various makers of the 5071A > ever made an optical version. I wonder what they are thinking > now that someone else has done it. > > Rick > > On 3/17/2017 7:48 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: > > > > > > Looks like Oscilloquartz is getting ready to sell this commercially! > > Will give the 5071A a run for the money! > > Reliability should go way up as: > > -No electron multiplier > > -No ionizer filament > > -No state selection magnets > > Also all the fiddley bits (laser diodes and photodetectors) are > > external > > to the tube and can be easily updated as needed. > > > > > > https://www.slideshare.net/ADVAOpticalNetworking/performance-results-of-a > > n-optically-pumped-cesium-beam-clock > > > > Cheers, > > > > Corby > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 2:48 AM,wrote: > Looks like Oscilloquartz is getting ready to sell this commercially! http://www.chronos.co.uk/files/pdfs/itsf/2015/day2/1410_High_performance_optically-pumped_cesium_beam_clock-PBerthoud-Oscilloquartz.pdf Two year old deck with a fair amount of overlap, though a few more engineering diagrams. Heres to hoping they fit it with an unreliable LCD backlight so they'll be available as cosmetically defective cheap surplus in the future. :) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Len Cutler was all set to build an optically pumped Cs beam 20 years ago. Even then, he could get the lasers. He was only missing one thing: money. HP management never agreed to fund it. The paper conspicuously omits any spec on absolute accuracy. The optical pumping does nothing to improve that AFAIK. It still depends on phase error in the CBT. The 5071 has a guaranteed accuracy of 10^-12, and is typically several times better than that. It is surprising that none of the various makers of the 5071A ever made an optical version. I wonder what they are thinking now that someone else has done it. Rick On 3/17/2017 7:48 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: Looks like Oscilloquartz is getting ready to sell this commercially! Will give the 5071A a run for the money! Reliability should go way up as: -No electron multiplier -No ionizer filament -No state selection magnets Also all the fiddley bits (laser diodes and photodetectors) are external to the tube and can be easily updated as needed. https://www.slideshare.net/ADVAOpticalNetworking/performance-results-of-a n-optically-pumped-cesium-beam-clock Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Optical Cesium or maybe Cesium "light"!
Looks like Oscilloquartz is getting ready to sell this commercially! Will give the 5071A a run for the money! Reliability should go way up as: -No electron multiplier -No ionizer filament -No state selection magnets Also all the fiddley bits (laser diodes and photodetectors) are external to the tube and can be easily updated as needed. https://www.slideshare.net/ADVAOpticalNetworking/performance-results-of-a n-optically-pumped-cesium-beam-clock Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.