Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
On 8/7/16 4:13 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi I have seen several other attempts in the past few decades to write “history” papers in the context of IEEE proceedings. They (unfortunately) always seem to turn into a set of personal recollections rather than a proper history. It would be *very* useful to have a complete trace of who did what and when in some of these areas. We seem to be very poor at doing all the (very) heavy lifting involved in getting that done. This is hardly unique to this field. It is very typical in a lot of tech areas, and has been for at least a few hundred years …. I find that some of the best summaries of "previous work" are found in the second section of a PhD dissertation: you have to describe all the previous work, so you can say why your work is something new and different. And putting together a good summary is "your job" as opposed to "something on the side" which would be the case for most working engineers. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Dear Ulrich, Thanks for that additional information. I simply didn't know, and would probably find out if I had dug out all the papers. I haven't done that for this part of the field. Rather, it is only through discussions like this that we get the accumulated knowledge, so no worries. OK, good, more nice material to read. One learn things as one goes along, and it is only through exchanges that one can learn more, love to learn more! :) The reference to Dieter Scherer is on page 5 already. It would be handy if references to Dieter's contribution back in the day could be located. Always good to bring forward some hard evidence to add to the anecdotal part of insight. I could only find some HP seminiar notes on http://hparchive.com/seminar_notes.htm It is covered here from 1978: http://hparchive.com/seminar_notes/Scherer_Low_noise_source_design_and_test.pdf which on page 17 also have the same breakup of the modified Leeson model as you have on page 9 Cheers, Magnus On 08/08/2016 01:24 AM, ka2...@aol.com wrote: Good evening Magnus Nice hearing again from you and I hate to disagree with you but you are wrong , Leeson did not add the flicker effect , this was done by my friend Dieter Scherer of HP, I added the neglected VCO term (pushing) and Everett the important effect of unloaded vs loaded Q. Please take a look at the complete modern liner noise equation to be found in https://www-docs.tu-cottbus.de/mikrowellentechnik/public/rohde/rohde2011ulr_habil_presentation.pdf see page 9 ! A complete up to date non-linear noise model for LC oscillators and its general validation can be found in https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/bitstream/11303/1306/1/Dokument_16.pdf 73 de Ulrich In a message dated 8/7/2016 6:30:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so that is expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on record than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would have to be collected over a much larger set of people. BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles. I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail to include flicker noise, *which is in Leesons model*. It is a straight-forward extension thought. I don't have access to any of his articles, except the one-page letter that Rick linked. There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented, incorporated and extended. Edson clearly contributed. Cheers, Magnus On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Here is another comment ; > > > this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical > report which we would like. > It seems that Edson did some great work before, > > > 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement > > > > > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf > > Vacuum tube oscillators > > > > xx > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > time-nuts@febo.com writes: > > Good morning, > > yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or > function, > This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... > > Ulrich > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts >wrote: > >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > important >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >> referenced . > > The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire > oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that > incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he > tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. > > The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of > the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The > abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read > much about developments past 1970. > > Cheers > Michael > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > wrote: >> Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is > > kind >> of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would >> have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern >> measurements techniques
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Good evening Magnus Nice hearing again from you and I hate to disagree with you but you are wrong , Leeson did not add the flicker effect , this was done by my friend Dieter Scherer of HP, I added the neglected VCO term (pushing) and Everett the important effect of unloaded vs loaded Q. Please take a look at the complete modern liner noise equation to be found in https://www-docs.tu-cottbus.de/mikrowellentechnik/public/rohde/rohde2011ulr_ habil_presentation.pdf see page 9 ! A complete up to date non-linear noise model for LC oscillators and its general validation can be found in https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/bitstream/11303/1306/1/Dokument_16.pdf 73 de Ulrich In a message dated 8/7/2016 6:30:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so that is expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on record than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would have to be collected over a much larger set of people. BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles. I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail to include flicker noise, which is in Leesons model. It is a straight-forward extension thought. I don't have access to any of his articles, except the one-page letter that Rick linked. There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented, incorporated and extended. Edson clearly contributed. Cheers, Magnus On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Here is another comment ; > > > this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical > report which we would like. > It seems that Edson did some great work before, > > > 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement > > > > > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf > > Vacuum tube oscillators > > > > xx > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > time-nuts@febo.com writes: > > Good morning, > > yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or > function, > This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... > > Ulrich > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > wrote: > >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > important >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >> referenced . > > The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire > oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that > incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he > tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. > > The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of > the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The > abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read > much about developments past 1970. > > Cheers > Michael > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > wrote: >> Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is > > kind >> of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would >> have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern >> measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a > phase > noise test >> system. >> >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > important >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >> referenced . >> >> I think he is really out of it. >> >> 73 de N1UL >> >> >> >> In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> j...@miles.io writes: >> >>> >>> Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important >>> question >>> of measurements strangely not covered >>> >>> 73 de N 1 UL >>> >> >> I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements > alone, >> but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little >> disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one > reference in the >> bibliography. Same for"Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no >> citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. >> >> -- john, KE5FX >> Miles Design LLC >> >> >>___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >>___
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Hi I have seen several other attempts in the past few decades to write “history” papers in the context of IEEE proceedings. They (unfortunately) always seem to turn into a set of personal recollections rather than a proper history. It would be *very* useful to have a complete trace of who did what and when in some of these areas. We seem to be very poor at doing all the (very) heavy lifting involved in getting that done. This is hardly unique to this field. It is very typical in a lot of tech areas, and has been for at least a few hundred years …. Bob > On Aug 7, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Magnus Danielson > wrote: > > Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so that is > expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on record than > it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would have to be > collected over a much larger set of people. > > BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles. > > I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail to > include flicker noise, which is in Leesons model. It is a straight-forward > extension thought. I don't have access to any of his articles, except the > one-page letter that Rick linked. > > There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive detail of > events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented, incorporated and extended. > Edson clearly contributed. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: >> Here is another comment ; >> >> >> this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical >> report which we would like. >> It seems that Edson did some great work before, >> >> >> 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf >> >> Vacuum tube oscillators >> >> >> >> xx >> >> >> In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> time-nuts@febo.com writes: >> >> Good morning, >> >> yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or >> function, >> This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... >> >> Ulrich >> >> >> In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts >>wrote: >> >>> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting >> important >>> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >>> referenced . >> >> The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire >> oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that >> incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he >> tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. >> >> The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of >> the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The >> abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read >> much about developments past 1970. >> >> Cheers >> Michael >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts >> wrote: >>> Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is >> >> kind >>> of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would >>> have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern >>> measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a >> phase >> noise test >>> system. >>> >>> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting >> important >>> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >>> referenced . >>> >>> I think he is really out of it . >>> >>> 73 de N1UL >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>> j...@miles.io writes: >>> Very selected and incomplete references and the equallyimportant question of measurements strangely not covered 73 de N 1 UL >>> >>> I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements >> alone, >>> but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little >>> disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one >> reference in the >>> bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no >>> citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. >>> >>> -- john, KE5FX >>> Miles Design LLC >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nutsmailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> ht
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so that is expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on record than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would have to be collected over a much larger set of people. BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles. I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail to include flicker noise, which is in Leesons model. It is a straight-forward extension thought. I don't have access to any of his articles, except the one-page letter that Rick linked. There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented, incorporated and extended. Edson clearly contributed. Cheers, Magnus On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: Here is another comment ; this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical report which we would like. It seems that Edson did some great work before, 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf Vacuum tube oscillators xx In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, time-nuts@febo.com writes: Good morning, yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or function, This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... Ulrich In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even referenced . The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read much about developments past 1970. Cheers Michael On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase noise test system. Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even referenced . I think he is really out of it . 73 de N1UL In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, j...@miles.io writes: Very selected and incomplete references and the equallyimportant question of measurements strangely not covered 73 de N 1 UL I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one reference in the bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. -- john, KE5FX Miles Design LLC ___ time-nutsmailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Here is another comment ; this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical report which we would like. It seems that Edson did some great work before, 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf Vacuum tube oscillators xx In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, time-nuts@febo.com writes: Good morning, yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or function, This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... Ulrich In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read much about developments past 1970. Cheers Michael On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind > of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would > have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern > measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase noise test > system. > > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . > > I think he is really out of it . > > 73 de N1UL > > > > In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > j...@miles.io writes: > >> >> Very selected and incomplete references and the equallyimportant >> question >> of measurements strangely not covered >> >> 73 de N 1 UL >> > > I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, > but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little > disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one reference in the > bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no > citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. > > -- john, KE5FX > Miles Design LLC > > > ___ > time-nutsmailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
This may be interesting : Y. Gruson, V. Giordano, U. L. Rohde, and E. Rubiola, “On a Conceptual Error in Cross Spectrum PM Noise Measurements,” Proc. European Frequency and Time Forum p. ***–***, York, United Kingdom, 4–7 April 2016. Abstract no. 1056, 73 de Ulrich xx In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, time-nuts@febo.com writes: Good morning, yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or function, This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... Ulrich In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read much about developments past 1970. Cheers Michael On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind > of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would > have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern > measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase noise test > system. > > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . > > I think he is really out of it . > > 73 de N1UL > > > > In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > j...@miles.io writes: > >> >> Very selected and incomplete references and the equallyimportant >> question >> of measurements strangely not covered >> >> 73 de N 1 UL >> > > I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, > but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little > disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one reference in the > bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no > citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. > > -- john, KE5FX > Miles Design LLC > > > ___ > time-nutsmailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Good morning, yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or function, This paper is more about people and events and very little since ... Ulrich In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read much about developments past 1970. Cheers Michael On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind > of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would > have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern > measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase noise test > system. > > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . > > I think he is really out of it . > > 73 de N1UL > > > > In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > j...@miles.io writes: > >> >> Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important >> question >> of measurements strangely not covered >> >> 73 de N 1 UL >> > > I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, > but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little > disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one reference in the > bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no > citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. > > -- john, KE5FX > Miles Design LLC > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
The story is quite simple, life is never fair and therefore some use more elbow then others , Happy weekend, 73 de Ulrich N1UL In a message dated 8/6/2016 1:00:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rich...@karlquist.com writes: On 8/5/2016 12:47 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free): > > "Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875 > It has always irked me that no credit was given to Edson's pioneering 1953 book "Vacuum tube oscillators" in Leeson's papers and I see that the omission continues in the latest paper. You can see from the following reference that Edson was the true pioneer in this field: http://garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1983/A1983QV0081.pdf He actually had the basic idea in 1934. He is the proverbial "unsung hero". Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Yes, a good book ! Ulrich In a message dated 8/6/2016 7:00:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, csteinm...@yandex.com writes: Rick wrote: > It has always irked me that no credit was given to Edson > He is the proverbial "unsung hero" Hardly unsung. Harvard PhD Sigma Xi as a Gordon McKay Scholar, distinguished career at Bell Labs, Illinois Institute of Technology, Bell Labs Radio Research Laboratory, Georgia Institute of Technology, Georgia Tech Research Institute, Stanford (working with Fred Terman, as he had at RRL), Stanford Electronics Research Laboratory, GE, founded Emtech, Stanford Research Institute, IEEE Life Fellow. Edson was very well-known and well-respected in his day, but he didn't publish much. To this day, I still refer to "Vacuum-Tube Oscillators" regularly -- over 60 years since it was published! Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Rick wrote: It has always irked me that no credit was given to Edson He is the proverbial "unsung hero" Hardly unsung. Harvard PhD Sigma Xi as a Gordon McKay Scholar, distinguished career at Bell Labs, Illinois Institute of Technology, Bell Labs Radio Research Laboratory, Georgia Institute of Technology, Georgia Tech Research Institute, Stanford (working with Fred Terman, as he had at RRL), Stanford Electronics Research Laboratory, GE, founded Emtech, Stanford Research Institute, IEEE Life Fellow. Edson was very well-known and well-respected in his day, but he didn't publish much. To this day, I still refer to "Vacuum-Tube Oscillators" regularly -- over 60 years since it was published! Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Rick, On 08/06/2016 06:18 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 8/5/2016 12:47 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free): "Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875 It has always irked me that no credit was given to Edson's pioneering 1953 book "Vacuum tube oscillators" in Leeson's papers and I see that the omission continues in the latest paper. You can see from the following reference that Edson was the true pioneer in this field: http://garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1983/A1983QV0081.pdf He actually had the basic idea in 1934. He is the proverbial "unsung hero". Then write an article and point it out. Have a discussion with David Leeson for that mather, he is still active enough. It could be that Edson's work was not known to them in this context. Regardless, just put it in text and show the precursor work. I bet that many does not know of this work precursor the Leeson 1966 paper. You have this knowledge, share it in proper ways. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read much about developments past 1970. Cheers Michael On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind > of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would > have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern > measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase > noise test > system. > > Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important > things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > referenced . > > I think he is really out of it . > > 73 de N1UL > > > > In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > j...@miles.io writes: > >> >> Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important >> question >> of measurements strangely not covered >> >> 73 de N 1 UL >> > > I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, > but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little > disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one > reference in the > bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no > citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. > > -- john, KE5FX > Miles Design LLC > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
On 8/5/2016 12:47 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free): "Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875 It has always irked me that no credit was given to Edson's pioneering 1953 book "Vacuum tube oscillators" in Leeson's papers and I see that the omission continues in the latest paper. You can see from the following reference that Edson was the true pioneer in this field: http://garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1983/A1983QV0081.pdf He actually had the basic idea in 1934. He is the proverbial "unsung hero". Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase noise test system. Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even referenced . I think he is really out of it . 73 de N1UL In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, j...@miles.io writes: > > Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important > question > of measurements strangely not covered > > 73 de N 1 UL > I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one reference in the bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. -- john, KE5FX Miles Design LLC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
> > Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important > question > of measurements strangely not covered > > 73 de N 1 UL > I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one reference in the bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. -- john, KE5FX Miles Design LLC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
This is in reference to Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free): "Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875 In a message dated 8/5/2016 4:48:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ka2...@aol.com writes: Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important question of measurements strangely not covered 73 de N 1 UL Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:47 PM, "Tom Van Baak" wrote: > > Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free): > > "Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875 > > > > Also, a few months IEEE had a "Special Issue to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Allan Variance". > The full list of papers is here: > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=7445917 > > Most of the articles are behind the IEEE paywall. Some free exceptions here: > > "Introduction to the Special Issue on Celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Allan Variance" > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7445935 > > "The Parabolic Variance (PVAR): A Wavelet Variance Based on the Least-Square Fit" > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7323846 > also at: > http://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.00687.pdf > > "Simulations of the Hadamard Variance: Probability Distributions and Confidence Intervals" > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7350241 > > > > Best of all, a free version of the David Allan and Judah Levine paper is here: > > "A Historical Perspective on the Development of the Allan Variances and Their Strengths and Weaknesses" > http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2834.pdf > > /tvb > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review
Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free): "Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875 Also, a few months IEEE had a "Special Issue to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Allan Variance". The full list of papers is here: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=7445917 Most of the articles are behind the IEEE paywall. Some free exceptions here: "Introduction to the Special Issue on Celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Allan Variance" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7445935 "The Parabolic Variance (PVAR): A Wavelet Variance Based on the Least-Square Fit" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7323846 also at: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.00687.pdf "Simulations of the Hadamard Variance: Probability Distributions and Confidence Intervals" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7350241 Best of all, a free version of the David Allan and Judah Levine paper is here: "A Historical Perspective on the Development of the Allan Variances and Their Strengths and Weaknesses" http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2834.pdf /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
