Re: [time-nuts] Pendulum clock suspension

2017-12-10 Thread Tom Van Baak
List -- we don't normally do wrist watch or pendulum topics here on time-nuts. 
There are many publications [1] and forums [2] for that

Iovane -- but, here's a quick answer:

> This puzzled me since yesterday as I discovered how the suspension of 
> pendulum clocks is made, that is a springy plate.
> I thought that:
> -the suspension point (i.e. the point the pendulum moves about) cannot be 
> considered fixed,
> -following the above, the lenght of the pendulum varies during a swing,
> -the spring contributes to the oscillation (it cumulates and releases 
> energy), i.e. not only gravity at work..
> Ok that we can neglect the above yet having an extremely good approximation, 
> but is it conceptually right?
> Thanks for the answers.

When you get to 0.1% or ppm or ppb levels, there is a huge difference between 
pendulum motion as described in physics textbooks vs. how real or precision 
pendulum clocks operate.

Correct, it's not all gravity; the spring suspension itself has some effect on 
the motion of the pendulum. If this is a problem then you make design decisions 
about spring length, width, thickness, taper, or what metal to use. Or make the 
bob heavier, or choose a different operating amplitude. Or skip the spring 
entirely and use agate or diamond pivot suspension. All of this can be worked 
out with math or with experimentation.

Correct, the effective length of a pendulum may vary during the swing. This is 
due to the geometry of the suspension, flexure in the rod, and changes in 
buoyancy. And even if the length were constant, the pendulum is still not 
isochronous, due to "circular error". Hence the preoccupation with amplitude 
stability as well as length stability.

In general you should not neglect anything until you have modeled or measured 
it. Also don't confuse accuracy with stability. A pendulum could swing in a 
"figure 8" for all I care, but as long as it does so consistently it can be a 
good timekeeper. It's possible that some of the effects you describe affect 
accuracy more than stability.

Given your curiosity about pendulum clocks, I strongly suggest you subscribe to 
HSN and order the digital archive. These topics are covered in extreme detail 
there. You will be amazed.

/tvb

[1] Some pendulum clock resources:
AH (Antiquarian Horology), www.ahsoc.org
HJ (Horological Journal), British Horological Institute, 
bhi.co.uk/horological-journal
NAWCC (National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors), www.nawcc.org
HSN (Horological Science Newsletter), NAWCC chapter 161, www.hsn161.com

[2] There are also many clock and pendulum web sites, web forums, and mailing 
lists. Contact me off-list.


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Re: [time-nuts] Pendulum clock suspension

2017-12-10 Thread Hal Murray
> This puzzled me since yesterday as I discovered how the suspension of
> pendulum clocks is made, that is a springy plate.

There is less loss in a suspension like that than there would be in a pivot 
bearing.

The spring doesn't change parameters as it gets dirty or the oil dries out.

> -following the above, the lenght of the pendulum varies during a swing,

> Ok that we can neglect the above yet having an extremely good approximation,
> but is it conceptually right? 

With a constant length pendulum, there is a slight variation in the frequency 
with the height (width?) of the swing.  (I haven't done the math since 
college physics which was a long time ago.)

It would be interesting to see how much the length of a pendulum changes as 
the suspension spring bends and how much that changes the resonant frequency 
and how that compares with the length change due to temperature.  I suspect 
it's down in the noise.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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[time-nuts] Pendulum clock suspension

2017-12-10 Thread iovane--- via time-nuts
This puzzled me since yesterday as I discovered how the suspension of pendulum 
clocks is made, that is a springy plate.
I thought that:
-the suspension point (i.e. the point the pendulum moves about) cannot be 
considered fixed,
-following the above, the lenght of the pendulum varies during a swing,
-the spring contributes to the oscillation (it cumulates and releases energy), 
i.e. not only gravity at work..
Ok that we can neglect the above yet having an extremely good approximation, 
but is it conceptually right?
Thanks for the answers.
ant
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