Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[Bob Camp]

HI

It sort of depends on what offset frequency you are looking at. If you are 
after very wide band stuff at very low levels, 
the notch filter / spectrum analyzer approach has always been a good one. You 
may or may not need a low noise 
amp after the notch depending on the analyzer. Your notch may need to be more 
deep with some analyzers. It’s 
been used since at least the 1960’s. I would not be surprised to find it goes 
back a bit further than that. 

One basic assumption with the notch approach:

You are measuring total noise. Both the AM noise and PM noise go past the notch 
and into the analyzer. The fundamental
assumption is that out there the noise is equally distributed between AM and 
PM. There would be a paper in it if you
can prove that’s not the case. 

Lots of fun !!

Bob

> On Jun 18, 2016, at 6:11 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 6/18/16 12:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The Symmetricom Time Pod is pretty much the lowest cost commercial / newl 
>> “low phase noise” measurement instrument. You can find all sorts
>> of older stuff on auction sites in who knows what shape. The HP 3048 is the 
>> granddaddy of them all.
>> 
> 
> the time pod is about 8-9k (I just got a quote on one).
> 
> I don't think the 4406 is inherently very quiet, if they're making close in 
> measurements, they may have another quiet source to drive it from, or they 
> are beating the unit under test against a quiet reference, and just using the 
> 4406 to look at the IF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jun 18, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
>>> they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
>>> phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
>>> apparently they were very expensive.
>>> 
>>> Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS
>>> 
>>> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info=107_id=234
>>> 
>>> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
>>> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
>>> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
>>> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
>>> 
>>> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
>>> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
>>> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
>>> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
>>> group.
>>> 
>>> Dave
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[John Miles]

> I note your software works with the HP 7 too. As I say, I already have
> one of them, but was thinking the E4406A would be a worthwhile addition.
> But perhaps not in that case. Although maybe it will outperform my 7
> system for phase noise measurements. I expect you will know the answer to
> that.

The E4406A will let you measure all the way down to 1 Hz from the carrier, and 
is quieter past 100 kHz.  And it's faster, being FFT-based.  Overall, though, 
their LO noise floors aren't that different.  They both need a lot of help to 
perform serious PN measurements.

> BTW, the link to the  "Wenzel Associates, BluePhase 1000 Phase Noise Test
> System Operations Manual
>  (30
> pages, 1.3 MB)" PDF is broken.

Thanks -- coincidentally, someone else just reported that one a few days ago.  
I've fixed it but haven't updated it on the server yet.  It's safe to say there 
are plenty of other broken links on my site, as some of those pages are over 10 
years old now.  

> OK, I will give this idea a miss. I was actually looking to compare 116 MHz
> oscillators. but I guess the same principles apply.

Sadly, there are few good answers there other than "build a quadrature PLL."

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[jimlux]

On 6/18/16 12:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

The Symmetricom Time Pod is pretty much the lowest cost commercial / newl “low 
phase noise” measurement instrument. You can find all sorts
of older stuff on auction sites in who knows what shape. The HP 3048 is the 
granddaddy of them all.



the time pod is about 8-9k (I just got a quote on one).

I don't think the 4406 is inherently very quiet, if they're making close 
in measurements, they may have another quiet source to drive it from, or 
they are beating the unit under test against a quiet reference, and just 
using the 4406 to look at the IF.






Bob


On Jun 18, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
 wrote:

I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
apparently they were very expensive.

Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info=107_id=234

and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.

I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
group.

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 18 June 2016 at 21:01, John Miles  wrote:

> > and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was
> an
> > Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
> > expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which
> is
> > more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
>
> It appears that Leo's using a notch filter to remove the carrier before
> measuring it with the E4406A, so it's not quite a plug-and-play sort of
> measurement.  But yes, the E4406A is a really cool piece of gear given the
> prices they sell for.  It's not meant to be a general-purpose spectrum
> analyzer -- and Agilent went well out of their way to make sure of that --
> but it can still handle many common SA measurement tasks including SSB
> noise.
>

Thank you. In which case it may or may not be better than  the HP 7
series SA I have, consisting of:

* 70004A display,
* 70905A 50 kHz to 22 RF GHz front end
* 70902A (10 Hz to 300 kHz) IF
* 70903A (100 kHz to 3 MHz) IF
* 70310A precision frequency reference.
+ some irrelevant bits.

I was not looking for a general purchase SA, as I have one of them already.



> The plot on that page came from my freeware phase noise app from
> http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/pn.htm , which is a (very) distant ancestor of
> TimeLab.  The last two FAQ entries at http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/faq.htm
> offer some hints for suppressed-carrier measurements that can be used with
> the E4406A and other analyzers.  There's nothing special about the E4406A
> with respect to this type of measurement, except that it's an unusually
> cost-effective way to get the job done.
>

I note your software works with the HP 7 too. As I say, I already have
one of them, but was thinking the E4406A would be a worthwhile addition.
But perhaps not in that case. Although maybe it will outperform my 7
system for phase noise measurements. I expect you will know the answer to
that.

BTW, the link to the  "Wenzel Associates, BluePhase 1000 Phase Noise Test
System Operations Manual
 (30
pages, 1.3 MB)" PDF is broken.


> The E5052A/B's most immediate predecessor was probably the HP 4352A/B.
> They were made specifically for VCO and PLL transient analysis and noise
> measurement, and they've been selling in the $1K-$3K


It seems the HP 4352Bs are available for a little under $1000 now, but are
but still twice the price of a E4406A.

neighborhood for several years.  Their measurement floor is better than a
> conventional spectrum analyzer, but still not adequate for "time
> nuts"-class measurements on 10 MHz sources.
>

OK, I will give this idea a miss. I was actually looking to compare 116 MHz
oscillators. but I guess the same principles apply.

Cheers John.


>
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
>


Dave, G8WRB
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The Symmetricom Time Pod is pretty much the lowest cost commercial / newl “low 
phase noise” measurement instrument. You can find all sorts
of older stuff on auction sites in who knows what shape. The HP 3048 is the 
granddaddy of them all. 

Bob

> On Jun 18, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
> they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
> phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
> apparently they were very expensive.
> 
> Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS
> 
> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info=107_id=234
> 
> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
> 
> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
> group.
> 
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[John Miles]

> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.

It appears that Leo's using a notch filter to remove the carrier before 
measuring it with the E4406A, so it's not quite a plug-and-play sort of 
measurement.  But yes, the E4406A is a really cool piece of gear given the 
prices they sell for.  It's not meant to be a general-purpose spectrum analyzer 
-- and Agilent went well out of their way to make sure of that -- but it can 
still handle many common SA measurement tasks including SSB noise.

The plot on that page came from my freeware phase noise app from 
http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/pn.htm , which is a (very) distant ancestor of 
TimeLab.  The last two FAQ entries at http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/faq.htm offer 
some hints for suppressed-carrier measurements that can be used with the E4406A 
and other analyzers.  There's nothing special about the E4406A with respect to 
this type of measurement, except that it's an unusually cost-effective way to 
get the job done.  

I've also heard of people opening up the E4406A and feeding HF signals directly 
to the ADC, eliminating the LO noise contribution but not the ADC's white 
noise, 1/f noise, or clock jitter.
 
> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
> group.

The E5052A/B's most immediate predecessor was probably the HP 4352A/B.  They 
were made specifically for VCO and PLL transient analysis and noise 
measurement, and they've been selling in the $1K-$3K neighborhood for several 
years.  Their measurement floor is better than a conventional spectrum 
analyzer, but still not adequate for "time nuts"-class measurements on 10 MHz 
sources. 

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


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[time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
apparently they were very expensive.

Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info=107_id=234

and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.

I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
group.

Dave
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