Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Charles Steinmetz]

The articles described below are now available individually on 
Didier's site (thanks, Didier !!), at:




Attila has them available as a single, ~32MB ZIP file (probably 
temporarily -- thanks, Attila !!), at:




Enjoy!

Charles


Since there seems to be some interest in DIY phase noise test sets, 
I put together the following list of references relevant to such a 
project, with some comments.


Note that the "dual source" quadrature method is not the only 
practical way to make sensitive phase noise 
measurements.  Interested DIY-ers should also look at the "delay 
line discriminator" method.  It is substantially simpler, although 
its ultimate noise floor is typically not as good as the "dual 
source" method.  But it may well be good enough, depending on the PN 
of the oscillators you are measuring.


(1)  Correlation_based_PN_measurements_RUBIOLA_2000:  Describes a 
system for making interferometer-based PN measurements, for a lower 
noise floor.


(2)  HP_AN150-4_SA_noise_measurements_1974  [see especially pp. 
19-25]:  A good introduction to using a spectrum analyzer to 
characterize the phase noise of oscillators.


(3)  HP_AN246-2_PN_measurement_with_HP_3585A:  A good introduction 
to the advantages and limitations of using a spectrum analyzer to 
characterize the phase noise of oscillators.  For those fortunate 
enough to own an HP 3585A or B, this reference provides much useful 
information about using this particular instrument.


(4)  HP_art_of_phase_noise_measurement_SCHERER_1985:  An excellent 
introduction to the subject.  Explains the operation, advantages, 
and disadvantages of the "dual source" and "delay line discriminator" methods.


(5)  HP_Phase_Noise_Measurement_Techniques_2000:  More detailed 
treatment than the Scherer 1985 reference, including direct PN 
measurements with SAs, as well as the "dual source" and "delay line 
discriminator" methods.  Provides specific sensitivity/noise floor 
information about various HP instruments.


(6)  HP_phase_noise_seminar_1985:  Even more detail than the two 
references above.  Discusses four different measurement methods in 
substantial detail and provides specific sensitivity/noise floor 
information about various HP instruments.


(7)  Low_cost_phase_noise_measurement_Wenzel:  Describes a 
practical, low-cost "dual source" PN measurement system, with links 
to schematics of the building blocks.  Provides useful insight into 
calibration.


(8)  Measurement_of_frequency_PN_AM_noise_WALLS_NIST:  More 
theoretical treatment, discussing five PN measurement systems.


(9) 
Phase_and_AM_noise_measurement_in_frequency_domain_LANCE_etal_1984: 
Another theoretical treatment of both dual source and single source 
measurement methods, including a dual delay line system to improve 
the noise floor.


(10)  Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011: 
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using 
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker 
noise is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly 
higher than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better 
transistors than the 2N for this application.]


(11) 
Phase_Noise_Measurement_Using_Phase_Lock_Technique_Motorola_AN1639_1999: 
A good general treatment of the "dual source" quadrature method, 
including insights into avoiding a number of sources of error.


(12/13/14) 
Phase_noise_measurement_with_amateur_instruments_2010_(Italian) 
[and English translations]:  Slides from a presentation by Eraldo 
Sbarbati, I4SBX (SK) to Italian hams.  Practical orientation.


(15)  Phase_Noise_Measurements_NELSON_NIST_2011:  Slides from a 
conference presentation.  More a discussion of the finer points of 
PN measurements, less about the basics.


Oops, missed one:

(16)  DEMPHANO_phase_noise_measurement_fixture_MAKHINSON_CQ_1999: 
DIY construction article for a "dual source" quadrature test fixture 
that the author uses as a front end for an HP 3585A spectrum analyzer.



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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 10:53:17 -0400
Charles Steinmetz  wrote:

> Since there seems to be some interest in DIY phase noise test sets, I 
> put together the following list of references relevant to such a 
> project, with some comments.  I have a ZIP file of these items (about 
> 35MB), but so far have been unsuccessful in uploading it to Didier's 
> site.  If anyone has suggestions for hosting it, please let me know 
> *offlist*.


It has been uploaded to Didier's site. But as sorting it in will
take some time, i mirrored it at:

http://time.kinali.ch/Phase_noise_measurement_references.zip

Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Bruce Griffiths]

I dont believe that the LF IF port output resistance of the minicircuits phase 
detectors is 500 ohm.Its just that this IF port load provides aa reasonable 50 
ohm match at the RF/LO ports.
The IF port LF output impedance is likely to be 100 ohms or less some of which 
will be intrinsic (having a effective thermal noise resistance of 1/2 its 
value) to the diodes and some of which is bulk resistance (a few ohms).To be 
sure one would need diode models as well as transformer/balun models.My crude 
simulations using ideal transformers (k=1) and HSMS2810 diode models reproduce 
all the effects that various NIST papers claimed as far as the effect of IF 
port load on the phase detector characteristics but not the claimed noise 
effects.
I need to find the MPD1's I have and run some tests for IF port output 
impedance at low frequencies with both RF ports saturated by the same 10MHz 
signal.

Bruce
 

On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 12:04 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann  
wrote:
 

 Am 29.03.2016 um 16:53 schrieb Charles Steinmetz:
>
> (10)  Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011: 
> Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using 
> diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker noise 
> is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly higher 
> than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better transistors 
> than the 2N for this application.]
... and they are NOT really used as diodes. They are used as switching 
transistors with most current flow C-E, saturation enforced.
That turns faster on than the diode exp-law.
Somewhere they also say that they use 50 Ohm load.

I really wonder where all that ring mixer noise is to come from. The 
diodes are just switches, the transformers
have close to no loss and behave properly in power dividers, and even 
when the diodes are resistors for a moment,
their noise is only half-thermal.

I find it easy to believe that high power mixers produce more noise. In 
that app note by Watkins-Johnson that everybody copies,
there it is clearly shown that they may use resistors to generate bias 
voltages.

If I use two 1:4 Wilkinsons, 4 low power ring mixers and put the outputs 
in series, will it also turn worse? I don't think so.

Are there anywhere musings about the equivalent noise resistance of a 
ring mixer IF output?
If it is really something like 500 Ohms, even a single AD797 may be 
excessively over-optimized
for voltage, and not current noise.

regards, Gerhard
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Alexander Pummer]

Hello Gerhard
look that: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-8999EN.pdf
http://rfic.eecs.berkeley.edu/~niknejad/ee242/pdf/ee242_mixer_noise_design.pdf
and also STEPHEN MAAS has very good book on mixers...  Microwaves101 | 
Mixers

www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/mixers
Mixers. Check out our book recommendation page and order Stephen Maas' 
masterpiece on mixers!

73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 3/29/2016 3:28 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 29.03.2016 um 16:53 schrieb Charles Steinmetz:


(10) Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011: 
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using 
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker 
noise is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly 
higher than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better 
transistors than the 2N for this application.]
.. and they are NOT really used as diodes. They are used as switching 
transistors with most current flow C-E, saturation enforced.

That turns faster on than the diode exp-law.
Somewhere they also say that they use 50 Ohm load.

I really wonder where all that ring mixer noise is to come from. The 
diodes are just switches, the transformers
have close to no loss and behave properly in power dividers, and even 
when the diodes are resistors for a moment,

their noise is only half-thermal.

I find it easy to believe that high power mixers produce more noise. 
In that app note by Watkins-Johnson that everybody copies,
there it is clearly shown that they may use resistors to generate bias 
voltages.


If I use two 1:4 Wilkinsons, 4 low power ring mixers and put the 
outputs in series, will it also turn worse? I don't think so.


Are there anywhere musings about the equivalent noise resistance of a 
ring mixer IF output?
If it is really something like 500 Ohms, even a single AD797 may be 
excessively over-optimized

for voltage, and not current noise.

regards, Gerhard
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Alexander Pummer]

and here is with very good literature: 
https://www.google.com/search?q=Haas+Mixer+noise=utf-8=utf-8#q=Maas+Mixer+noise


On 3/29/2016 3:28 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 29.03.2016 um 16:53 schrieb Charles Steinmetz:


(10) Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011: 
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using 
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker 
noise is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly 
higher than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better 
transistors than the 2N for this application.]
.. and they are NOT really used as diodes. They are used as switching 
transistors with most current flow C-E, saturation enforced.

That turns faster on than the diode exp-law.
Somewhere they also say that they use 50 Ohm load.

I really wonder where all that ring mixer noise is to come from. The 
diodes are just switches, the transformers
have close to no loss and behave properly in power dividers, and even 
when the diodes are resistors for a moment,

their noise is only half-thermal.

I find it easy to believe that high power mixers produce more noise. 
In that app note by Watkins-Johnson that everybody copies,
there it is clearly shown that they may use resistors to generate bias 
voltages.


If I use two 1:4 Wilkinsons, 4 low power ring mixers and put the 
outputs in series, will it also turn worse? I don't think so.


Are there anywhere musings about the equivalent noise resistance of a 
ring mixer IF output?
If it is really something like 500 Ohms, even a single AD797 may be 
excessively over-optimized

for voltage, and not current noise.

regards, Gerhard
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4545/11913 - Release Date: 
03/29/16


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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Magnus Danielson]

You should add some of the NIST writings on cross-correlation, both 
traditional and newer. In particular, the more recent papers describe 
the newly discovered danger of cross-correlation which currently is an 
open research field. Cross-correlation can give over-optimistic values.

Never the less, the cross-correlation technique is very useful.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/29/2016 04:53 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Since there seems to be some interest in DIY phase noise test sets, I
put together the following list of references relevant to such a
project, with some comments.  I have a ZIP file of these items (about
35MB), but so far have been unsuccessful in uploading it to Didier's
site.  If anyone has suggestions for hosting it, please let me know
*offlist*.

For those who are in a rush, most of these should be easy to find on the
web with a search engine (but note that my file names are often not the
exact paper titles, so don't make your searches too literal).

Note that the "dual source" quadrature method is not the only practical
way to make sensitive phase noise measurements.  Interested DIY-ers
should also look at the "delay line discriminator" method.  It is
substantially simpler, although its ultimate noise floor is typically
not as good as the "dual source" method.  But it may well be good
enough, depending on the PN of the oscillators you are measuring.

(1)  Correlation_based_PN_measurements_RUBIOLA_2000:  Describes a system
for making interferometer-based PN measurements, for a lower noise floor.

(2)  HP_AN150-4_SA_noise_measurements_1974  [see especially pp. 19-25]:
A good introduction to using a spectrum analyzer to characterize the
phase noise of oscillators.

(3)  HP_AN246-2_PN_measurement_with_HP_3585A:  A good introduction to
the advantages and limitations of using a spectrum analyzer to
characterize the phase noise of oscillators.  For those fortunate enough
to own an HP 3585A or B, this reference provides much useful information
about using this particular instrument.

(4)  HP_art_of_phase_noise_measurement_SCHERER_1985:  An excellent
introduction to the subject.  Explains the operation, advantages, and
disadvantages of the "dual source" and "delay line discriminator" methods.

(5)  HP_Phase_Noise_Measurement_Techniques_2000:  More detailed
treatment than the Scherer 1985 reference, including direct PN
measurements with SAs, as well as the "dual source" and "delay line
discriminator" methods.  Provides specific sensitivity/noise floor
information about various HP instruments.

(6)  HP_phase_noise_seminar_1985:  Even more detail than the two
references above.  Discusses four different measurement methods in
substantial detail and provides specific sensitivity/noise floor
information about various HP instruments.

(7)  Low_cost_phase_noise_measurement_Wenzel:  Describes a practical,
low-cost "dual source" PN measurement system, with links to schematics
of the building blocks.  Provides useful insight into calibration.

(8)  Measurement_of_frequency_PN_AM_noise_WALLS_NIST:  More theoretical
treatment, discussing five PN measurement systems.

(9) Phase_and_AM_noise_measurement_in_frequency_domain_LANCE_etal_1984:
Another theoretical treatment of both dual source and single source
measurement methods, including a dual delay line system to improve the
noise floor.

(10)  Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011:
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker noise
is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly higher
than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better transistors than
the 2N for this application.]

(11)
Phase_Noise_Measurement_Using_Phase_Lock_Technique_Motorola_AN1639_1999:
A good general treatment of the "dual source" quadrature method,
including insights into avoiding a number of sources of error.

(12/13/14)
Phase_noise_measurement_with_amateur_instruments_2010_(Italian)  [and
English translations]:  Slides from a presentation by Eraldo Sbarbati,
I4SBX (SK) to Italian hams.  Practical orientation.

(15)  Phase_Noise_Measurements_NELSON_NIST_2011:  Slides from a
conference presentation.  More a discussion of the finer points of PN
measurements, less about the basics.

Oops, missed one:

(16)  DEMPHANO_phase_noise_measurement_fixture_MAKHINSON_CQ_1999: DIY
construction article for a "dual source" quadrature test fixture that
the author uses as a front end for an HP 3585A spectrum analyzer.

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Magnus Danielson]

On 03/30/2016 12:28 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 29.03.2016 um 16:53 schrieb Charles Steinmetz:


(10)  Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011:
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker noise
is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly higher
than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better transistors
than the 2N for this application.]

.. and they are NOT really used as diodes. They are used as switching
transistors with most current flow C-E, saturation enforced.
That turns faster on than the diode exp-law.
Somewhere they also say that they use 50 Ohm load.

I really wonder where all that ring mixer noise is to come from. The
diodes are just switches, the transformers
have close to no loss and behave properly in power dividers, and even
when the diodes are resistors for a moment,
their noise is only half-thermal.


The diodes as not "just switches". The "switches" analogy is not 
helpful. It has an exponential function from voltage to current.


There is thermal noise because they have resistance.

There is flicker noise, as current flows through the semiconductor.

Cheers,
Maguns
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 29.03.2016 um 16:53 schrieb Charles Steinmetz:


(10)  Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011: 
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using 
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker noise 
is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly higher 
than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better transistors 
than the 2N for this application.]
.. and they are NOT really used as diodes. They are used as switching 
transistors with most current flow C-E, saturation enforced.

That turns faster on than the diode exp-law.
Somewhere they also say that they use 50 Ohm load.

I really wonder where all that ring mixer noise is to come from. The 
diodes are just switches, the transformers
have close to no loss and behave properly in power dividers, and even 
when the diodes are resistors for a moment,

their noise is only half-thermal.

I find it easy to believe that high power mixers produce more noise. In 
that app note by Watkins-Johnson that everybody copies,
there it is clearly shown that they may use resistors to generate bias 
voltages.


If I use two 1:4 Wilkinsons, 4 low power ring mixers and put the outputs 
in series, will it also turn worse? I don't think so.


Are there anywhere musings about the equivalent noise resistance of a 
ring mixer IF output?
If it is really something like 500 Ohms, even a single AD797 may be 
excessively over-optimized

for voltage, and not current noise.

regards, Gerhard
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[time-nuts] Phase noise test set reference articles

[Charles Steinmetz]

Since there seems to be some interest in DIY phase noise test sets, I 
put together the following list of references relevant to such a 
project, with some comments.  I have a ZIP file of these items (about 
35MB), but so far have been unsuccessful in uploading it to Didier's 
site.  If anyone has suggestions for hosting it, please let me know 
*offlist*.


For those who are in a rush, most of these should be easy to find on 
the web with a search engine (but note that my file names are often 
not the exact paper titles, so don't make your searches too literal).


Note that the "dual source" quadrature method is not the only 
practical way to make sensitive phase noise measurements.  Interested 
DIY-ers should also look at the "delay line discriminator" 
method.  It is substantially simpler, although its ultimate noise 
floor is typically not as good as the "dual source" method.  But it 
may well be good enough, depending on the PN of the oscillators you 
are measuring.


(1)  Correlation_based_PN_measurements_RUBIOLA_2000:  Describes a 
system for making interferometer-based PN measurements, for a lower 
noise floor.


(2)  HP_AN150-4_SA_noise_measurements_1974  [see especially pp. 
19-25]:  A good introduction to using a spectrum analyzer to 
characterize the phase noise of oscillators.


(3)  HP_AN246-2_PN_measurement_with_HP_3585A:  A good introduction to 
the advantages and limitations of using a spectrum analyzer to 
characterize the phase noise of oscillators.  For those fortunate 
enough to own an HP 3585A or B, this reference provides much useful 
information about using this particular instrument.


(4)  HP_art_of_phase_noise_measurement_SCHERER_1985:  An excellent 
introduction to the subject.  Explains the operation, advantages, and 
disadvantages of the "dual source" and "delay line discriminator" methods.


(5)  HP_Phase_Noise_Measurement_Techniques_2000:  More detailed 
treatment than the Scherer 1985 reference, including direct PN 
measurements with SAs, as well as the "dual source" and "delay line 
discriminator" methods.  Provides specific sensitivity/noise floor 
information about various HP instruments.


(6)  HP_phase_noise_seminar_1985:  Even more detail than the two 
references above.  Discusses four different measurement methods in 
substantial detail and provides specific sensitivity/noise floor 
information about various HP instruments.


(7)  Low_cost_phase_noise_measurement_Wenzel:  Describes a practical, 
low-cost "dual source" PN measurement system, with links to 
schematics of the building blocks.  Provides useful insight into calibration.


(8)  Measurement_of_frequency_PN_AM_noise_WALLS_NIST:  More 
theoretical treatment, discussing five PN measurement systems.


(9) 
Phase_and_AM_noise_measurement_in_frequency_domain_LANCE_etal_1984: 
Another theoretical treatment of both dual source and single source 
measurement methods, including a dual delay line system to improve 
the noise floor.


(10)  Phase_detector_with_low_flicker_noise_BARNES_etal_NIST_2011: 
Describes a DIY double-balanced mixer phase detector using 
diode-connected 2N transistors.  [Note that only the flicker 
noise is improved -- the white noise floor is actually significantly 
higher than with DBMs using diodes.  NB: There are much better 
transistors than the 2N for this application.]


(11) 
Phase_Noise_Measurement_Using_Phase_Lock_Technique_Motorola_AN1639_1999: 
A good general treatment of the "dual source" quadrature method, 
including insights into avoiding a number of sources of error.


(12/13/14) 
Phase_noise_measurement_with_amateur_instruments_2010_(Italian)  [and 
English translations]:  Slides from a presentation by Eraldo 
Sbarbati, I4SBX (SK) to Italian hams.  Practical orientation.


(15)  Phase_Noise_Measurements_NELSON_NIST_2011:  Slides from a 
conference presentation.  More a discussion of the finer points of PN 
measurements, less about the basics.


Oops, missed one:

(16)  DEMPHANO_phase_noise_measurement_fixture_MAKHINSON_CQ_1999: 
DIY construction article for a "dual source" quadrature test fixture 
that the author uses as a front end for an HP 3585A spectrum analyzer.


Best regards,

Charles

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