Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
OK now I am on a real keyboard. the ole iphones a bit small. I was indeed aware that the subs use msk 20-50hz as I have measured in the past. But avoided the details on the small keyboard. I have also used several of the military radios when I was in the Navy. Far to many years ago. NAA thats maybe 100 miles a way can be easily detected with a diode and tuned circuit. All that said I have absolutely no real detail on the quality and stability of the signal. Subs do need a stable signal. But I know really nothing. I know Paul has suggested that just maybe the signal would be useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon < kgordon2...@frontier.com> wrote: > On 10 Aug 2014 at 19:00, Jim Lux wrote: > > > It can also be FSK.. > > but it's essentially the narrowest band simple modulation that is > > constant envelope. > > As I said, back in the 1970s, the Navy installed special equipment to > enable > phase-stable output. > > Dunno the exact details, but that was what I was told back then...by the > Navy. > > Still dunno if my Tacor 599s will even "listen" to VLF stations now, but I > intend to try them. > > VLF has always interested me... > > I have several operable VLF receivers: RAK, RBL, SRR-11, AN/URM-6, > NM-40A, R-389, etc. > > RAK is interesting in that although a TRF, it still exhibits > "single-signal" CW > reception: the "other side" of zero-beat simply doesn't exist. I was > amazed... > > Ken W7EKB > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On 10 Aug 2014 at 19:00, Jim Lux wrote: > It can also be FSK.. > but it's essentially the narrowest band simple modulation that is > constant envelope. As I said, back in the 1970s, the Navy installed special equipment to enable phase-stable output. Dunno the exact details, but that was what I was told back then...by the Navy. Still dunno if my Tacor 599s will even "listen" to VLF stations now, but I intend to try them. VLF has always interested me... I have several operable VLF receivers: RAK, RBL, SRR-11, AN/URM-6, NM-40A, R-389, etc. RAK is interesting in that although a TRF, it still exhibits "single-signal" CW reception: the "other side" of zero-beat simply doesn't exist. I was amazed... Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On 10 Aug 2014 at 15:24, Martin VE3OAT wrote: > As I recall (it was a long time ago), it was called Minimum Shift > Keying You're correct: I just looked it up. > and used the minimum frequency shift (FSK) that would permit > reliable detection of a bit (mark or space) at the given information > rate. Something like 25 Hz shift at 50 baud keying. But it was > necessary to control the instantaneous phase of the signal very > carefully. Yes again. Back in the 1970s, I was working with a fellow who was doing VLF propagation research. We were notified that the U.S. Navy had shifted to MSK and some method of stable phase transmission. The Navy told us they were installing special equipment to make that happen. As I remember it, they called it something like "coherent phase transmission", but I could be wrong. There is a note in the manual I found for the 599-CS to that effect, in MY handwriting and signed with my initials. > As a result the spectrum of an MSK signal is quite > distinct from that of an ordinary FSK signal. As I recall. Well, you have an excellent memory. :-) Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On 8/10/14, 11:54 AM, Mike Feher wrote: Unless on what you were working on it had a different meaning, MSK means "Minimal Shift Keying". It is still a PSK modulation of any order, however the transition between significant phase locations is not instantaneous, but, shaped in various ways to smooth the transition. This results in a waveform that has a minimal AM component which then consequently reduces spectral regrowth when amplified by a non-linear amplifier. Allows for closer channel spacing, and is generally nicer, at the expense of additional complexity. 73 - Mike I can also be FSK.. but it's essentially the narrowest band simple modulation that is constant envelope. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On 8/10/14, 9:26 AM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote: On 10 Aug 2014 at 6:24, paul swed wrote: Hello again, Paul. Thanks for replying. Please see below. On iPhone Yes but those stations are fsk so the offsets an issue. As I understand it from back in the 1970s when I was first working on this sort of thing, the modulation is not FSK, but "MSK" (whatever that is) at something like 25 to 50 Hz, and the Navy installed the necessary equipment in the 1970 time-frame to assure that the transmitted signals are phase-stable. The same thing, apparently holds true for GBR and some of the other stations like those. Russian, for instance. MSK = Minimum Shift Keying... Run the bits through an appropriate filter (usually a Gaussian) before feeding them into the modulator. The "minimum" comes from the fact that the frequency deviation (or phase shift) is the smallest you can have and still decode the bits, so it has very high spectral efficiency (e.g. maximum bps/Hz). The well known G3RUH 9600 bps packet modem is close to being a GMSK modem: deviation is 3kHz for 9600 symbols/sec and uses an 8 tap FIR filter in the modulator. Bluetooth uses GMFSK I have no idea what, exactly, has occurred in this area since then though. W ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
As I recall (it was a long time ago), it was called Minimum Shift Keying and used the minimum frequency shift (FSK) that would permit reliable detection of a bit (mark or space) at the given information rate. Something like 25 Hz shift at 50 baud keying. But it was necessary to control the instantaneous phase of the signal very carefully. As a result the spectrum of an MSK signal is quite distinct from that of an ordinary FSK signal. As I recall. 73, ... MartinVE3OAT Ken W7EKB wrote : As I understand it from back in the 1970s when I was first working on this sort of thing, the modulation is not FSK, but "MSK" (whatever that is) at something like 25 to 50 Hz, ... (snip) > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Unless on what you were working on it had a different meaning, MSK means "Minimal Shift Keying". It is still a PSK modulation of any order, however the transition between significant phase locations is not instantaneous, but, shaped in various ways to smooth the transition. This results in a waveform that has a minimal AM component which then consequently reduces spectral regrowth when amplified by a non-linear amplifier. Allows for closer channel spacing, and is generally nicer, at the expense of additional complexity. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-902-3831 cell -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth G. Gordon Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:27 PM To: paul swed; time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers. On 10 Aug 2014 at 6:24, paul swed wrote: Hello again, Paul. Thanks for replying. Please see below. > On iPhone > Yes but those stations are fsk so the offsets an issue. As I understand it from back in the 1970s when I was first working on this sort of thing, the modulation is not FSK, but "MSK" (whatever that is) at something like 25 to 50 Hz, and the Navy installed the necessary equipment in the 1970 time-frame to assure that the transmitted signals are phase-stable. The same thing, apparently holds true for GBR and some of the other stations like those. Russian, for instance. I have no idea what, exactly, has occurred in this area since then though. > We may assume the transmitter is accurate. Yes. > But how accurate? That is a good question. I have no idea at this point. I'll try to find out. > Then the fsk generator Well, as I said above, it is not FSKexactly... I DO know that the Navy had problems when they first tried FSK with their antenna tuning methods. Due to the extremely hi "Q" of their antenna systems, any useable frequency shift (at the receiver) was so great that it pretty much threw their antennas out of tune on either mark or space. Thus, they had to use a different method. I never did learn what that method was. Perhaps now is the time for me to find out. Thanks again, Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On 10 Aug 2014 at 6:24, paul swed wrote: Hello again, Paul. Thanks for replying. Please see below. > On iPhone > Yes but those stations are fsk so the offsets an issue. As I understand it from back in the 1970s when I was first working on this sort of thing, the modulation is not FSK, but "MSK" (whatever that is) at something like 25 to 50 Hz, and the Navy installed the necessary equipment in the 1970 time-frame to assure that the transmitted signals are phase-stable. The same thing, apparently holds true for GBR and some of the other stations like those. Russian, for instance. I have no idea what, exactly, has occurred in this area since then though. > We may assume the transmitter is accurate. Yes. > But how accurate? That is a good question. I have no idea at this point. I'll try to find out. > Then the fsk generator Well, as I said above, it is not FSKexactly... I DO know that the Navy had problems when they first tried FSK with their antenna tuning methods. Due to the extremely hi "Q" of their antenna systems, any useable frequency shift (at the receiver) was so great that it pretty much threw their antennas out of tune on either mark or space. Thus, they had to use a different method. I never did learn what that method was. Perhaps now is the time for me to find out. Thanks again, Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On iPhone Yes but those stations are fsk so the offsets an issue We may assume the transmitter is accurate But how accurate? Then the fsk generator On Saturday, August 9, 2014, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote: > On 9 Aug 2014 at 19:17, paul swed wrote: > > > Ken > > All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk > wwvb > > modulation. > > Hello, Paul. Yes. I knew that WWVB had switched to BPSK, but these > receivers were specifically designed to tune to any of the VLF stations > between 3 and 99.95 KHz. They used NAA, NPG, and GBR as examples. > > > Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are > > better then the old wwvb receivers. > > Well, I wasn't thinking so much of accuracy as simply watching the servos > hunt. ;-) > > > I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for > far to > > long will allow it to track again. > > Supposedly, it would track any of the VLF stations which transmitted > phase-stable signals, even those which used FSK or its equivalent. > > > As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. > > Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL > > Well, I have done just that. > > I found two references to those: one was from a Canadian university project > which was trying to use Phase-Tracking receivers to track the position of > an > ice-island. They were trying to use both an RMS Engineering 1312, and two > Tracor 599s. Due to errors in their attempts to use the equipment with > which > they weren't familiar, they didn't have much luck. > > The other reference was to an exchange on this very forum back in 2010...I > think. Someone said they had been using a 1312 for 20 years. > > Anyway, thanks for the help. Much appreciated. > > Ken W7EKB > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On 9 Aug 2014 at 19:17, paul swed wrote: > Ken > All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk wwvb > modulation. Hello, Paul. Yes. I knew that WWVB had switched to BPSK, but these receivers were specifically designed to tune to any of the VLF stations between 3 and 99.95 KHz. They used NAA, NPG, and GBR as examples. > Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are > better then the old wwvb receivers. Well, I wasn't thinking so much of accuracy as simply watching the servos hunt. ;-) > I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far to > long will allow it to track again. Supposedly, it would track any of the VLF stations which transmitted phase-stable signals, even those which used FSK or its equivalent. > As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. > Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL Well, I have done just that. I found two references to those: one was from a Canadian university project which was trying to use Phase-Tracking receivers to track the position of an ice-island. They were trying to use both an RMS Engineering 1312, and two Tracor 599s. Due to errors in their attempts to use the equipment with which they weren't familiar, they didn't have much luck. The other reference was to an exchange on this very forum back in 2010...I think. Someone said they had been using a 1312 for 20 years. Anyway, thanks for the help. Much appreciated. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Some can. But the big mega power ones here run FSK or in reality MSK about 25-50Hz from what I can tell. The other comment I have is that there no published data on the stability or reference. I could speculate its good but have no idea actually. Would have to build a receiver to figure it out. Regards Paul. On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Paul: > > Are the phase tracking receivers able to receive any VLF stations (like > used by the military)? > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.PRC68.com > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html > http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html > > > paul swed wrote: > >> Ken >> All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk >> wwvb >> modulation. >> Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are better then >> the old wwvb receivers. >> >> I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far >> to long will allow it to track again. >> As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. Something to search for on the >> internet. >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon < >> kgordon2...@frontier.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hello, I'm new here, but would like to get some advice, if possible. >>> >>> I have been going through my inventory here of items which were given to >>> me in an estate some time ago. >>> >>> Amongst many other things, I find three Tracor or Textran 599 receivers. >>> One 599-CS with its manual, a 599 (no suffix) and one labeled R-1086/URR, >>> which is very obviously another 599. I have no manual for either of the >>> last >>> two. >>> >>> I also have an RMS Engineering of Atlanta, GA Model 1312 receiver, but >>> the >>> manuals (2) I have are for an RMS Engineering model 1310/1311. >>> >>> So my questions: >>> >>> 1) Are the Tracor/Textran 599s worth anything other than parts? and >>> >>> 2) Is there a manual available somewhere for the RMS Engineering Model >>> 1312? >>> >>> 3) Is the 1312 worth anything to anyone these days? >>> >>> From the manuals I have on the 599 models, I am quite impressed with >>> their >>> specifications. >>> >>> I would think about using one or the other of them except that I no >>> longer >>> have an extremely accurate 100 KHz signal source. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ken Gordon W7EKB >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Hi Paul: Are the phase tracking receivers able to receive any VLF stations (like used by the military)? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html paul swed wrote: Ken All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk wwvb modulation. Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are better then the old wwvb receivers. I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far to long will allow it to track again. As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote: Hello, I'm new here, but would like to get some advice, if possible. I have been going through my inventory here of items which were given to me in an estate some time ago. Amongst many other things, I find three Tracor or Textran 599 receivers. One 599-CS with its manual, a 599 (no suffix) and one labeled R-1086/URR, which is very obviously another 599. I have no manual for either of the last two. I also have an RMS Engineering of Atlanta, GA Model 1312 receiver, but the manuals (2) I have are for an RMS Engineering model 1310/1311. So my questions: 1) Are the Tracor/Textran 599s worth anything other than parts? and 2) Is there a manual available somewhere for the RMS Engineering Model 1312? 3) Is the 1312 worth anything to anyone these days? From the manuals I have on the 599 models, I am quite impressed with their specifications. I would think about using one or the other of them except that I no longer have an extremely accurate 100 KHz signal source. Thanks, Ken Gordon W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Ken All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk wwvb modulation. Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are better then the old wwvb receivers. I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far to long will allow it to track again. As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote: > Hello, I'm new here, but would like to get some advice, if possible. > > I have been going through my inventory here of items which were given to > me in an estate some time ago. > > Amongst many other things, I find three Tracor or Textran 599 receivers. > One 599-CS with its manual, a 599 (no suffix) and one labeled R-1086/URR, > which is very obviously another 599. I have no manual for either of the > last > two. > > I also have an RMS Engineering of Atlanta, GA Model 1312 receiver, but the > manuals (2) I have are for an RMS Engineering model 1310/1311. > > So my questions: > > 1) Are the Tracor/Textran 599s worth anything other than parts? and > > 2) Is there a manual available somewhere for the RMS Engineering Model > 1312? > > 3) Is the 1312 worth anything to anyone these days? > > From the manuals I have on the 599 models, I am quite impressed with their > specifications. > > I would think about using one or the other of them except that I no longer > have an extremely accurate 100 KHz signal source. > > Thanks, > > Ken Gordon W7EKB > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Hello, I'm new here, but would like to get some advice, if possible. I have been going through my inventory here of items which were given to me in an estate some time ago. Amongst many other things, I find three Tracor or Textran 599 receivers. One 599-CS with its manual, a 599 (no suffix) and one labeled R-1086/URR, which is very obviously another 599. I have no manual for either of the last two. I also have an RMS Engineering of Atlanta, GA Model 1312 receiver, but the manuals (2) I have are for an RMS Engineering model 1310/1311. So my questions: 1) Are the Tracor/Textran 599s worth anything other than parts? and 2) Is there a manual available somewhere for the RMS Engineering Model 1312? 3) Is the 1312 worth anything to anyone these days? >From the manuals I have on the 599 models, I am quite impressed with their specifications. I would think about using one or the other of them except that I no longer have an extremely accurate 100 KHz signal source. Thanks, Ken Gordon W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
