Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Am 14.07.2015 um 02:32 schrieb KA2WEU--- via time-nuts: Dear Magnus, With your kind permission I (totally ) disagree with you . We make 10 GHz oscillators which are almost getting close to the Poseidon Sapphire , but optical? the post power amplifier at 10 Ghz has a much higher noise floor then the source . I have not yet solved the problem My new FSWP (R&S) Analyzer can measure down to - 190dBc/Hz . How do you do _that_? 20-cornered hat with 20 ADCs and references? The ADCs and FPGAs would be cheap enough, the references less so. Wish me luck, Ulrich Wish granted, Gerhard DK4XP ;-) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Dear Luciano, While the Phase Noise wikipedia page could do with an upgrade, I do recommend you (and anyone other that want's to learn about amplitude and phase noise) to visit Enrico Rubiolas page http://rubiola.org He has a nice set of presentations and papers. Do consider getting his book, as I've found it a nice, comprehensive and easily accessible summary. A simple model is that an amplifier will add white phase noise and flicker phase noise. A somewhat more complete model will also include amplitude noise to phase noise conversion. Care in amplifier/buffer design can reduce these effects. In the NIST T&F archives you can find some material relating to this. Cheers, Magnus On 07/14/2015 08:50 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: Dear Magnus, I am writing a doc on my Distribution Amplifier project and I was looking a complete, but simple to understand, description about the Phase Noise introduced, or Added, by a "non generative" devices. thanks, Luciano On Mon 13/07/15 17:37 , Magnus Danielson wrote: Dear Luciano, What do you need to know? Beefing up Wikipedia articles is indeed a nice thing, but lets hear what you look for. Cheers, Magnus On 07/13/2015 09:20 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: Hi all, I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but this page do not exist. Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this physical aspect for Wikipedia? thanks, Luciano tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it [1] Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ [2] ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [3] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [4] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://www.timeok.it [2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://atmail.org/ [3] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[4] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Dear Magnus, I am writing a doc on my Distribution Amplifier project and I was looking a complete, but simple to understand, description about the Phase Noise introduced, or Added, by a "non generative" devices. thanks, Luciano On Mon 13/07/15 17:37 , Magnus Danielson wrote: > Dear Luciano, > > What do you need to know? > Beefing up Wikipedia articles is indeed a nice thing, but lets hear what > you look for. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 07/13/2015 09:20 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but > this page do not exist. > > Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this > physical aspect for Wikipedia? > > > > thanks, > > > > Luciano > > tim...@timeok.it > > www.timeok.it [1] > > > > > > Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ [2] > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [3] > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [4] > and follow the instructions there. > > > > Links: > -- > [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://www.timeok.it > [2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://atmail.org/ > [3] > http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma > ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[4] > http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma > ilman/listinfo/time-nuts > Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Dear Ulrich, Nice performance on your 10 GHz oscillator then! I was not aware of that level of performance from a more regular oscillator source. Wish you luck with solving the power amplifier stage phase noise issue. The FSWP is indeed a nice new box for the task. Wish I had one. Already the FSUP was nice. These use dual channels and cross-correlation techniques to the best of my knowledge. I think maybe my point did not come through right. The residual phase noise term refers more to the measurement setup rather than the addition of noise. The term is troubled in that way. I wonder if additive phase noise is the best term, but it is indeed better. Also, as you say, we have noise conversion even in passive devices. Cheers, Magnus On 07/14/2015 02:32 AM, ka2...@aol.com wrote: Dear Magnus, With your kind permission I (totally ) disagree with you . We make 10 GHz oscillators which are almost getting close to the Poseidon Sapphire , but the post power amplifier at 10 Ghz has a much higher noise floor then the source . I have not yet solved the problem My new FSWP (R&S) Analyzer can measure down to - 190dBc/Hz . Wish me luck, Ulrich In a message dated 7/13/2015 5:29:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: Dear Ulrich, Indeed. I think it's really not meaningful of saying it is additive, just as it is not meaningful to say residual. Any buffering/amplifying stage will add phase noise (and amplitude noise). We will have conversion between AM and PM to some degree. For higher quality stuff, the levels are very low such that qualitative measurements becomes very hard, at least compared to oscillator measurements, also it is to it's nature a differential measurement, so the topology will be different. The most sensitive measurements I've seen use interferometric or cross-correlation techniques, as Enrico shown. You have any further insights? Cheers, Magnus On 07/13/2015 03:10 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > This is a misnomer, it should be called "additive"phase noise. Think of a > "noise free" oscillator with a buffer stage. This stage because of AM/PM > conversion under large signal condition adds noise, makes the over all system > noisier.. > > Ulrich Rohde > > > In a message dated 7/13/2015 8:31:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > tim...@timeok.it writes: > > > Hi all, > > I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but > this page do not exist. > Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this > physical aspect for Wikipedia? > > thanks, > > Luciano > tim...@timeok.it > www.timeok.it > > > Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Dear Magnus, With your kind permission I (totally ) disagree with you . We make 10 GHz oscillators which are almost getting close to the Poseidon Sapphire , but the post power amplifier at 10 Ghz has a much higher noise floor then the source . I have not yet solved the problem My new FSWP (R&S) Analyzer can measure down to - 190dBc/Hz . Wish me luck, Ulrich In a message dated 7/13/2015 5:29:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: Dear Ulrich, Indeed. I think it's really not meaningful of saying it is additive, just as it is not meaningful to say residual. Any buffering/amplifying stage will add phase noise (and amplitude noise). We will have conversion between AM and PM to some degree. For higher quality stuff, the levels are very low such that qualitative measurements becomes very hard, at least compared to oscillator measurements, also it is to it's nature a differential measurement, so the topology will be different. The most sensitive measurements I've seen use interferometric or cross-correlation techniques, as Enrico shown. You have any further insights? Cheers, Magnus On 07/13/2015 03:10 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > This is a misnomer, it should be called "additive"phase noise. Think of a > "noise free" oscillator with a buffer stage. This stage because of AM/PM > conversion under large signal condition adds noise, makes the over all system > noisier.. > > Ulrich Rohde > > > In a message dated 7/13/2015 8:31:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > tim...@timeok.it writes: > > > Hi all, > > I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but > this page do not exist. > Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this > physical aspect for Wikipedia? > > thanks, > > Luciano > tim...@timeok.it > www.timeok.it > > > Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Dear Ulrich, Indeed. I think it's really not meaningful of saying it is additive, just as it is not meaningful to say residual. Any buffering/amplifying stage will add phase noise (and amplitude noise). We will have conversion between AM and PM to some degree. For higher quality stuff, the levels are very low such that qualitative measurements becomes very hard, at least compared to oscillator measurements, also it is to it's nature a differential measurement, so the topology will be different. The most sensitive measurements I've seen use interferometric or cross-correlation techniques, as Enrico shown. You have any further insights? Cheers, Magnus On 07/13/2015 03:10 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: This is a misnomer, it should be called "additive"phase noise. Think of a "noise free" oscillator with a buffer stage. This stage because of AM/PM conversion under large signal condition adds noise, makes the over all system noisier.. Ulrich Rohde In a message dated 7/13/2015 8:31:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tim...@timeok.it writes: Hi all, I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but this page do not exist. Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this physical aspect for Wikipedia? thanks, Luciano tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Dear Luciano, What do you need to know? Beefing up Wikipedia articles is indeed a nice thing, but lets hear what you look for. Cheers, Magnus On 07/13/2015 09:20 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: Hi all, I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but this page do not exist. Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this physical aspect for Wikipedia? thanks, Luciano tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
I suggest this magazine article: Additive (residual) phase noise measurement of amplifiers, frequency dividers, and frequency multipliers http://www.holzworth.com/Aux_docs/PhaseNoise_Article_MWJ_Jun08.pdf -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Mon, Jul 13, 2015, at 02:20 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but > this page do not exist. > Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this > physical aspect for Wikipedia? > > thanks, > > Luciano > tim...@timeok.it > www.timeok.it > > > Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ > _ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
This is a misnomer, it should be called "additive"phase noise. Think of a "noise free" oscillator with a buffer stage. This stage because of AM/PM conversion under large signal condition adds noise, makes the over all system noisier.. Ulrich Rohde In a message dated 7/13/2015 8:31:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tim...@timeok.it writes: Hi all, I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but this page do not exist. Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this physical aspect for Wikipedia? thanks, Luciano tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise
Hi all, I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase Noise but this page do not exist. Can some one of the time-nuts expert write a full description of this physical aspect for Wikipedia? thanks, Luciano tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
