Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
I guess I am not getting it... Using relativistic effects on time to sense gravitational changes is like using dynamite to clean barnacles off of a boat... you can do it, but surely there is a better tool? A large part of the dithering about of precision analytical scales is due to gravity fluctuation caused by the all manner of things. You can see the fluctuations without going anywhere near 1E-16 in time, or anything else. -Chuck Harris Chris Albertson wrote: ... On course we have had distributed clocks for centuries now. They keep getting better but those clocks in the GPS satellites are not nearly good enough to detect gravity waves. To do that I think you need about 1E-16 in the short term. This is way past what anyone can fly in space in the reasonably near term future. But if you had such clocks you could detect all kinds of things from minerals underground to black holes in space. But today GPS is not close to being able to see these tiny effects. Maybe in the next century? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Simon Marsh wrote: > > Of course, a collection of distributed, very accurate clocks does already > exist: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System On course we have had distributed clocks for centuries now. They keep getting better but those clocks in the GPS satellites are not nearly good enough to detect gravity waves. To do that I think you need about 1E-16 in the short term. This is way past what anyone can fly in space in the reasonably near term future. But if you had such clocks you could detect all kinds of things from minerals underground to black holes in space. But today GPS is not close to being able to see these tiny effects. Maybe in the next century? > > > And there was a recent paper using this with a similar approach as you are > suggesting, not for gravitational waves, but in the hunt for dark matter: > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-November/088482.html > > Cheers > > > Simon > > On 12/12/2014 20:42, folkert wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational >> waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are >> intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. >> Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific >> world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very >> accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons >> that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on >> its own. >> What do you think? >> >> >> Folkert van Heusden >> >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
> Conclusion: not feasible. Actually, timing isn't the critical part. Yet. First you have to detect something. If you have only one working detector, timing isn't very important. If your detector doesn't tell you the direction, you can build a phased array antenna by putting several detectors around the earth. With good clocks, you can work out the direction it came from. The timing has to be good within a fraction of a wavelength. Maybe less if you can live with reduced pointing accuracy. (VLBI astronomers use hydrogen masers.) In 1987, 3 neutrino observatories observed a supernova. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN1987A#Neutrino_emissions But their timing is far from good enough to work out the direction. (Their fundamental detector technology is slow.) It might be possible to get a more sensitive system if you have a detector that is low cost so you can sprinkle many of them around around the Earth. With good clocks, phased array type math will give you antenna gain if you have enough compute power to search the whole sky. (or know where you want to look) -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
> If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational > waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are > intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. > Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific > world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons > that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on > its own. > What do you think? Thank you all for the replies. Conclusion: not feasible. I got inspired by this project: http://www.uradmonitor.com/ which installs radiation monitors all over the world at peoples homes and then monitors for gamma radiation. Cool project. It's with atmel328 cpus, ethernet and a geiger muller device in a tiny metal box that can be installed outside. Folkert van Heusden -- -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
Of course, a collection of distributed, very accurate clocks does already exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System And there was a recent paper using this with a similar approach as you are suggesting, not for gravitational waves, but in the hunt for dark matter: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-November/088482.html Cheers Simon On 12/12/2014 20:42, folkert wrote: Hi, If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on its own. What do you think? Folkert van Heusden ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
A VERY accuracy clock is actually a good sensor for gravity. This is because the clock's speed changes with strength of the gravity because of Einstein's General Theory. So if you have two very good clocks that are separated if one starts to run faster then we can assume time itself is running faster. If the relative rates of two clocks change periodically then you have (maybe) a periodic gravity wave. The clock is the best sensor for measuring the rate if time. The rate of time changes with gravity. The problem is that you need many insanely good clocks spread over some large area and a way to compare those clocks. I think well past the current state of the art. Perhaps you are confusing accuracy with sensitivity. When you want to > measure something you need a sensor. If you have a choice you pick the one > that's most sensitive. > > The very reason atomic clocks so accurate is that they are poor sensors. I > mean, if you want to measure gravity, a plain quartz oscillator is much > better. A pendulum clock is even better. Or just drop a rock off a > building. You want something macroscopic, not something atomic. To measure > those alleged space time ripples, you want something that measures motion, > not something based on quantum mechanics. > > Consider that LIGO, the coolest gravity experiment in the world, is > essentially a mirror hanging by a thread. It's a macroscopic, mechanical > experiment. > > If you still don't believe me, here's a quick comparison of two gravity > sensor technologies: > > 1) You can measure g to one digit of accuracy by dropping a coffee cup off > a 4 foot table. The equation is d = gt²/2. If the cup takes 0.5 seconds to > fall, then the result is g = 2d/t²= 9.7 m/s². Nice result; easy experiment. > > 2) To make a similar measurement of g using atomic clocks, you do > something like http://leapsecond.com/great2005/tour/. The equation is > df/f = t/T = gh/c². Here t (time dilation) was 22 ns, T (elapsed time) was > 42 hours, h (altitude gain) was 1340 meters, c (speed of light) is > 299792458 m/s, so the result is g = tc²/Th = 9.7 m/s². Nice result; hard > experiment. > > What's wonderful about the universe is that the two methods agree. But > which method could easily be improved if you wanted many more digits of > resolution, or wanted to measure short-term variations in g? > > /tvb > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
> If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational > waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are > intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. > Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific > world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > accurate clocks can detect this? Hi Folkert, Perhaps you are confusing accuracy with sensitivity. When you want to measure something you need a sensor. If you have a choice you pick the one that's most sensitive. The very reason atomic clocks so accurate is that they are poor sensors. I mean, if you want to measure gravity, a plain quartz oscillator is much better. A pendulum clock is even better. Or just drop a rock off a building. You want something macroscopic, not something atomic. To measure those alleged space time ripples, you want something that measures motion, not something based on quantum mechanics. Consider that LIGO, the coolest gravity experiment in the world, is essentially a mirror hanging by a thread. It's a macroscopic, mechanical experiment. If you still don't believe me, here's a quick comparison of two gravity sensor technologies: 1) You can measure g to one digit of accuracy by dropping a coffee cup off a 4 foot table. The equation is d = gt²/2. If the cup takes 0.5 seconds to fall, then the result is g = 2d/t²= 9.7 m/s². Nice result; easy experiment. 2) To make a similar measurement of g using atomic clocks, you do something like http://leapsecond.com/great2005/tour/. The equation is df/f = t/T = gh/c². Here t (time dilation) was 22 ns, T (elapsed time) was 42 hours, h (altitude gain) was 1340 meters, c (speed of light) is 299792458 m/s, so the result is g = tc²/Th = 9.7 m/s². Nice result; hard experiment. What's wonderful about the universe is that the two methods agree. But which method could easily be improved if you wanted many more digits of resolution, or wanted to measure short-term variations in g? /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
Folkert, If we had a 'Time Quake' - would we even know? Regards, John W. On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:42 PM, folkert wrote: > > Hi, > > If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational > waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are > intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. > Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific > world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons > that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on > its own. > What do you think? > > > Folkert van Heusden > > -- > -- > Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
When LIGO was announced I read up on it as much as I could. The problems seemed enormous. Bob Darlington mentioned shock mounts. That in itself seemed like a show stopper. Then I think there was some kind of accident. Anyway these guys did finish the LIGO. But unfortunately no space differential was measured. What an incredible experiment. -G On 12/12/2014 04:31 PM, Mark Sims wrote: > My Mickey Mouse watch was... it detected a gravity anomaly when the strap > broke and it hit the garage floor. This apparently caused a complete > cessation of temporal flow around the unit, ;-) > > - > Our clocks aren't good enough. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 8:42 PM, folkert wrote: > Hi, > > If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational > waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are > intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. > Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific > world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons > that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on > its own. > What do you think? The waves fall of with distance just as other undirected radiations do. As a result they should be incredibly weak when we observe them (if not, we have worse concerns!). There are observatories working on detecting these with incredibly sensitive equipment. Search for LIGO for an example. Even assuming we all had H-masers at home (I wish... anyone know what a VCH-1008 costs? is it too much to dream that it has a small price to match its small size?), I'm not aware of any way we could usefully measure gravitational waves, even ignoring their weakness, just due to a lack of precise time transfer with enough time resolution. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] gravity, space and time
My Mickey Mouse watch was... it detected a gravity anomaly when the strap broke and it hit the garage floor. This apparently caused a complete cessation of temporal flow around the unit, ;-) - Our clocks aren't good enough. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
On 12/12/2014 10:08 PM, Hal Murray wrote: /Our clocks aren't good enough. It's a very hard problem. Here is the scale: //http://www.ligo-la.caltech.edu// Yes. There are experiments set up in the US, in Italy and in Japan, to detect gravitational waves, funded by various universities. So far, not a single event has been detected... 73 Alberto I2PHD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
Well, funny you should mention laser inteferometry. My old company designed the shock mounts for the LIGO gravity wave detector. http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/ So far they haven't seen any signal in the noise. -Bob On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:42 PM, folkert wrote: > > > > Hi, > > ... create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > > accurate clocks can detect this? > > > To do this you'd need a clockso accurate that it will run at the different > speed when you move it from the bottom to the top shelf in your lab because > of the different gravitational field at those two different elevations. > Some people will have such clocks but most have only those eBay 10MHz OCXOs > > Maybe some kind of laser interferometer would wrk? > > -- > > Chris Albertson > Redondo Beach, California > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
folk...@vanheusden.com said: > Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific world > with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very accurate > clocks can detect this? Our clocks aren't good enough. It's a very hard problem. Here is the scale: http://www.ligo-la.caltech.edu/ -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:42 PM, folkert wrote: > > Hi, > ... create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > accurate clocks can detect this? To do this you'd need a clockso accurate that it will run at the different speed when you move it from the bottom to the top shelf in your lab because of the different gravitational field at those two different elevations. Some people will have such clocks but most have only those eBay 10MHz OCXOs Maybe some kind of laser interferometer would wrk? -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity, space and time
Hi Indeed the time nuts world does intersect very directly with this problem. One of the major drivers for some of the JPL work done back in the 1980’s was to come up with stable enough sources to mount on a deep space probe. The intent was to detect gravity waves. There is always a gotcha, in this case, the lower the amplitude of the waved, the harder they are to detect. Bob > On Dec 12, 2014, at 3:42 PM, folkert wrote: > > Hi, > > If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational > waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are > intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. > Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific > world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very > accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons > that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on > its own. > What do you think? > > > Folkert van Heusden > > -- > -- > Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] gravity, space and time
Hi, If I understood it well, we should occasionally encounter gravitational waves going through, well, the whole galaxy. As time and space are intertwined, those ripples may be measured somehow I guess. Isn't this that "we as time nuts community" can help the scientific world with? E.g. create some kind of grassroots effort where our very accurate clocks can detect this? I can imagine all kinds of reasons that existing infra for this may not always be able to detect this on its own. What do you think? Folkert van Heusden -- -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
