Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Magnus Danielson]

The number for the fiber is accurate.

However, fiber isn't laid straight path. I add at least 40% as a 
precaution, as if laid on the sides of a square, where the original path 
is the diagonal. This is however a very conservative measure to real world.


However, equipment delays can be much larger, and if you now have 
buffers they can cause much much higher delays. How well the network is 
managed controls the additional delay and it's variations.


You milage may vary, indeed.

These are among the things I need to know after half a bottle of wine.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/02/2017 05:58 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:

In my prior experience (from approx 5 to 20 years ago) actual wide area net 
work links delivered over fiber from commercial providers could have latencies 
of at least several times those figures.   I seem to recall efforts were made 
to lower latencies for applications such as stock trading but I never had any 
exposure to those connections.

Best regards
Mark Spencer



How can they get a delay that long?  Satellite link?

Fiber is 5 microseconds per km.  So 1000 km is 5 ms.

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Bruce Griffiths]

Make that a dual rate moon camera.These were used to measure variations in 
Earth's rotation period.
Bruce 

On Tuesday, 3 January 2017 11:10 AM, Bruce Griffiths 
 wrote:
 

 Carter did have a couple of small historic brass transit instruments which 
were never used by them.They also used to have a spectroheliograph which was 
used. Its long since been dismantled.Ther was also a lunar camera complete with 
alodined aluminium plate.
Bruce 

    On Tuesday, 3 January 2017 10:35 AM, Will Kimber  wrote:
 

 Apologies Bruce,

It is a good many years since I was there last.

Cheers,
Will

On 01/03/2017 12:40 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> You mean the Dominion observatory surely not Carter. It was close by and also 
> had a Danjon Astrolabe.
> Bruce
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Bruce Griffiths]

Carter did have a couple of small historic brass transit instruments which were 
never used by them.They also used to have a spectroheliograph which was used. 
Its long since been dismantled.Ther was also a lunar camera complete with 
alodined aluminium plate.
Bruce 

On Tuesday, 3 January 2017 10:35 AM, Will Kimber  wrote:
 

 Apologies Bruce,

It is a good many years since I was there last.

Cheers,
Will

On 01/03/2017 12:40 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> You mean the Dominion observatory surely not Carter. It was close by and also 
> had a Danjon Astrolabe.
> Bruce
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Will Kimber]

Apologies Bruce,

It is a good many years since I was there last.

Cheers,
Will

On 01/03/2017 12:40 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:

You mean the Dominion observatory surely not Carter. It was close by and also 
had a Danjon Astrolabe.
Bruce




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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Dave Brown]

It's not the fibre-it's the equipment on the end of it-specifically the 
multiplex equipment. And with path switching where differing eqpt was used on 
different links. you can guess the result!
Different technologies these days but the terminal eqpts, (where your packets 
are injected/extracted to/from all the rest) collectively are the major 
contributors to end-to-end latency and its 'variablilty'.

DaveB, NZ
  

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2017 11:48 p.m.
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes


tract...@ihug.co.nz said:
> The 'landline' networks also have significant (and variable) latency. 
> ISTR measuring a maximum of around 400/500 mSec some years ago on a 
> WN-CH digital link. Minimum over the test period of a week was nearer 250 
> mSec a few days
> later.   

How can they get a delay that long?  Satellite link?

Fiber is 5 microseconds per km.  So 1000 km is 5 ms.

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Mark Spencer]

In my prior experience (from approx 5 to 20 years ago) actual wide area net 
work links delivered over fiber from commercial providers could have latencies 
of at least several times those figures.   I seem to recall efforts were made 
to lower latencies for applications such as stock trading but I never had any 
exposure to those connections.

Best regards 
Mark Spencer

> 
> How can they get a delay that long?  Satellite link?
> 
> Fiber is 5 microseconds per km.  So 1000 km is 5 ms.
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Bruce Griffiths]

You mean the Dominion observatory surely not Carter. It was close by and also 
had a Danjon Astrolabe.
Bruce 

On Tuesday, 3 January 2017 12:10 AM, Hal Murray  
wrote:
 

 
tract...@ihug.co.nz said:
> The 'landline' networks also have significant (and variable) latency. ISTR
> measuring a maximum of around 400/500 mSec some years ago on a WN-CH digital
> link. Minimum over the test period of a week was nearer 250 mSec a few days
> later.  

How can they get a delay that long?  Satellite link?

Fiber is 5 microseconds per km.  So 1000 km is 5 ms.

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Hal Murray]

tract...@ihug.co.nz said:
> The 'landline' networks also have significant (and variable) latency. ISTR
> measuring a maximum of around 400/500 mSec some years ago on a WN-CH digital
> link. Minimum over the test period of a week was nearer 250 mSec a few days
> later.   

How can they get a delay that long?  Satellite link?

Fiber is 5 microseconds per km.  So 1000 km is 5 ms.

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Dave Brown]

The 'landline' networks also have significant (and variable) latency. ISTR 
measuring a maximum of around 400/500 mSec some years ago on a WN-CH digital 
link. Minimum over the test period of a week was nearer 250 mSec a few days 
later.  
DaveB
ChCh, NZ

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Will Kimber
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2017 1:01 p.m.
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes


Geoff

I have also noted the pips sound different and seem to recall an on air comment 
about using local time*.  The last pip is not always longer.

You have also got to watch out for them using off air Freeview satellite 
transmissions rebroadcast on normal radio stations!

Cheers,

Will

ZL1TAO

* Maybe from the Carter Observatory where the old solar transit was.  
I'm not suggesting that they use it still.


On 01/02/2017 12:46 PM, Kiwi Geoff wrote:
> Will Kimber <zl1...@gmx.com> wrote:
>> If you listened to Radio New  Zealand National news New Year's day 
>> morning you would have heard then stating there will be 7 pips at 1:00pm.
>>
>> However there were only 6 !!! So what happened?
> I was listening to both of the above events too, and agree with your 
> comments Will.
>
> The following is just my "observations" over the last few years as a 
> keen RNZ listener, and so may not be correct to those in the know.
>
> To my ears, there are two "types" of Time Pips:
>
> The "normal" time pips sound like reasonably pure sine-waves of 1KHz, 
> and are always correct to my house standard, and would be derived from 
> the atomic clocks at:
>
> Measurement Standards Laboratory
> Callaghan Innovation
> PO Box 31 310
> Lower Hutt 5040
> New Zealand
>
> https://www.msl.irl.cri.nz/services/time-and-frequency
>
> The "other" time pips sound different, they appear to be shorter in 
> duration and more like a square-wave at 1KHz than a sine-wave. I 
> assume they are locally generated at RNZ and are used when the 
> land-line to Lower Hutt is broken by road-works, earthquakes, or a 
> digger driver with a careless hand !
>
> In the past I have detected the "other" time pips drifting by about 
> half a second per day, so I assume it's a relatively simple XO that is 
> used rather than a GPS which I thought would have been a better option 
> for a standby reference.
>
> So my guess as to what is currently going on (for RNZ time pips) is 
> that they are using the backup system , which appears to be manually 
> set - and is yet to be manually set by a man!
>
> Maybe someone who knows someone in RNZ engineering, can give a more 
> accurate picture than just my conjecture.
>
> Regards, Geoff ( Christchurch, New Zealand ).
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Hal Murray]

m...@alignedsolutions.com said:
> Are there "leap second" test sets that non time nuts could use to generate
> leap second events during pre commissioning tests ?   (I'm envisioning some
> form of NTP server that could generate leap second events on command ?) 

There is a file of leap seconds.  You can edit it to add your own.  Then the 
normal ntpd will make leap seconds.

That only makes them at midnight UTC.

The file has a checksum.  You either have to write some code to compute the 
new checksum, or comment it out and use a version of ntpd that accepts a leap 
file without a checksum.




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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Mark Spencer]

Sorry if this comes across as a bit cynical but...

Presumably system functionality during leap second events would be something 
that is (or could be ?)tested during the pre commissioning phase of a systems 
implementation ?   I would have thought this would be especially important for 
"emergency" systems ?

Are there "leap second" test sets that non time nuts could use to generate leap 
second events during pre commissioning tests ?   (I'm envisioning some form of 
NTP server that could generate leap second events on command ?)

Best regards 
Mark Spencer

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 1, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Agreed, but new years eve is a special case for emergency services in 
> particular.
> 
> 
>> On 2/01/2017, at 2:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Insertion times that are convenient for some could be a major pain for 
>> others. There is no 
>> single “good” time to insert a leap second. You might argue that doing it 
>> while the financial 
>> markets are closed is a good idea. That sort of rules out the middle of the 
>> week. You also
>> could argue that you do it when everybody is on hand to fix things. That 
>> sort of rules out
>> weekends. With two simple “rules”, the entire week has been crossed off the 
>> list ….
>> 
>> If you go back in the archives, you will find significant discussion going 
>> on about dropping
>> leap seconds altogether. That would indeed eliminate the need to schedule 
>> them. It also 
>> would eventually result in some odd adjustments to local time. 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:07 AM, Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> If so, they should think about adding the leap second on the night of the 
>>> 2nd wednesday of January, or such a time when things are quieter around the 
>>> world.
>>> 
>>> Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the 
>>> world, or are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of 
>>> those in the UK for half of Jan 1st?
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Will Kimber]

Geoff

I have also noted the pips sound different and seem to recall an on air 
comment about using local time*.  The last pip is not always longer.


You have also got to watch out for them using off air Freeview satellite 
transmissions rebroadcast on normal radio stations!


Cheers,

Will

ZL1TAO

* Maybe from the Carter Observatory where the old solar transit was.  
I'm not suggesting that they use it still.



On 01/02/2017 12:46 PM, Kiwi Geoff wrote:

Will Kimber  wrote:

If you listened to Radio New  Zealand National news New Year's day
morning you would have heard then stating there will be 7 pips at 1:00pm.

However there were only 6 !!! So what happened?

I was listening to both of the above events too, and agree with your
comments Will.

The following is just my "observations" over the last few years as a
keen RNZ listener, and so may not be correct to those in the know.

To my ears, there are two "types" of Time Pips:

The "normal" time pips sound like reasonably pure sine-waves of 1KHz,
and are always correct to my house standard, and would be derived from
the atomic clocks at:

Measurement Standards Laboratory
Callaghan Innovation
PO Box 31 310
Lower Hutt 5040
New Zealand

https://www.msl.irl.cri.nz/services/time-and-frequency

The "other" time pips sound different, they appear to be shorter in
duration and more like a square-wave at 1KHz than a sine-wave. I
assume they are locally generated at RNZ and are used when the
land-line to Lower Hutt is broken by road-works, earthquakes, or a
digger driver with a careless hand !

In the past I have detected the "other" time pips drifting by about
half a second per day, so I assume it's a relatively simple XO that is
used rather than a GPS which I thought would have been a better option
for a standby reference.

So my guess as to what is currently going on (for RNZ time pips) is
that they are using the backup system , which appears to be manually
set - and is yet to be manually set by a man!

Maybe someone who knows someone in RNZ engineering, can give a more
accurate picture than just my conjecture.

Regards, Geoff ( Christchurch, New Zealand ).
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Kiwi Geoff]

Will Kimber  wrote:
> If you listened to Radio New  Zealand National news New Year's day
> morning you would have heard then stating there will be 7 pips at 1:00pm.
>
> However there were only 6 !!! So what happened?

I was listening to both of the above events too, and agree with your
comments Will.

The following is just my "observations" over the last few years as a
keen RNZ listener, and so may not be correct to those in the know.

To my ears, there are two "types" of Time Pips:

The "normal" time pips sound like reasonably pure sine-waves of 1KHz,
and are always correct to my house standard, and would be derived from
the atomic clocks at:

Measurement Standards Laboratory
Callaghan Innovation
PO Box 31 310
Lower Hutt 5040
New Zealand

https://www.msl.irl.cri.nz/services/time-and-frequency

The "other" time pips sound different, they appear to be shorter in
duration and more like a square-wave at 1KHz than a sine-wave. I
assume they are locally generated at RNZ and are used when the
land-line to Lower Hutt is broken by road-works, earthquakes, or a
digger driver with a careless hand !

In the past I have detected the "other" time pips drifting by about
half a second per day, so I assume it's a relatively simple XO that is
used rather than a GPS which I thought would have been a better option
for a standby reference.

So my guess as to what is currently going on (for RNZ time pips) is
that they are using the backup system , which appears to be manually
set - and is yet to be manually set by a man!

Maybe someone who knows someone in RNZ engineering, can give a more
accurate picture than just my conjecture.

Regards, Geoff ( Christchurch, New Zealand ).
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts]

Agreed, but new years eve is a special case for emergency services in 
particular.


On 2/01/2017, at 2:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Insertion times that are convenient for some could be a major pain for 
> others. There is no 
> single “good” time to insert a leap second. You might argue that doing it 
> while the financial 
> markets are closed is a good idea. That sort of rules out the middle of the 
> week. You also
> could argue that you do it when everybody is on hand to fix things. That sort 
> of rules out
> weekends. With two simple “rules”, the entire week has been crossed off the 
> list ….
> 
> If you go back in the archives, you will find significant discussion going on 
> about dropping
> leap seconds altogether. That would indeed eliminate the need to schedule 
> them. It also 
> would eventually result in some odd adjustments to local time. 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:07 AM, Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> If so, they should think about adding the leap second on the night of the 
>> 2nd wednesday of January, or such a time when things are quieter around the 
>> world.
>> 
>> Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the world, 
>> or are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of those in 
>> the UK for half of Jan 1st?
>> 

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Kiwi Geoff]

Andy ( ZL3AG ) wrote:
> Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the world,
> or are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of those in
> the UK for half of Jan 1st?

As far as our "Time Pips" in New Zealand go, it didn't appear to be
correct, right from the end of the last minute of the 2016 UTC year
(Sunday 13:00 , local NZ Summer time).

There should have been 7 pips (instead of the normal 6) as per:

https://www.msl.irl.cri.nz/services/time-and-frequency

however my audio recording of the "event" only has 6 pips.

Just listening now at 11am (Mon 2nd Jan) the "Time Pips" on National
Radio (like the US NPR ) are 1 second FAST, compared to my various GPS
and Internet devices.

So the Leap Second didn't leap as it should (time pip wise) here in NZ
for 2017, and the "Time Pips" are still currently incorrect !

Regards, Geoff (Christchurch , New Zealand).
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Will Kimber]

Andy,

If you listened to Radio New  Zealand National news New Year's day 
morning you would have heard then stating there will be 7 pips at 1:00pm.


However there were only 6 !!! So what happened?

Cheers and Happy New year,
Will
ZL1TAO

On 01/02/2017 02:07 AM, Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts wrote:

If so, they should think about adding the leap second on the night of the 2nd 
wednesday of January, or such a time when things are quieter around the world.

Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the world, or 
are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of those in the 
UK for half of Jan 1st?

On 2/01/2017, at 1:54 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote:


I wonder if someone wasn't ready for their extra second :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38482746
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Mike Cook]

> Le 1 janv. 2017 à 15:13, David Malone  a écrit :
> 
> On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 12:54:19PM +, Adrian Godwin wrote:
>> I wonder if someone wasn't ready for their extra second :
> 
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38482746
> 
> If, as the article says, they had to record things manually from
> 00:30 to 05:15 GMT, then I guess it probably wan't leap second
> related?

That may or may not be so, but among the falseleapers that showed up in my 
servers peers there is one which throws a wobbler much later than 0h.
See < stratum1.ddns.net:8080/cgi-bin/erratic_leaps_2017.cgi > . I couldn’t get 
them posted here.

> 
>   David.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[David Malone]

On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 12:54:19PM +, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> I wonder if someone wasn't ready for their extra second :

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38482746

If, as the article says, they had to record things manually from
00:30 to 05:15 GMT, then I guess it probably wan't leap second
related?

David.
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Insertion times that are convenient for some could be a major pain for others. 
There is no 
single “good” time to insert a leap second. You might argue that doing it while 
the financial 
markets are closed is a good idea. That sort of rules out the middle of the 
week. You also
could argue that you do it when everybody is on hand to fix things. That sort 
of rules out
weekends. With two simple “rules”, the entire week has been crossed off the 
list ….

If you go back in the archives, you will find significant discussion going on 
about dropping
leap seconds altogether. That would indeed eliminate the need to schedule them. 
It also 
would eventually result in some odd adjustments to local time. 


Bob

> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:07 AM, Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> If so, they should think about adding the leap second on the night of the 2nd 
> wednesday of January, or such a time when things are quieter around the world.
> 
> Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the world, 
> or are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of those in 
> the UK for half of Jan 1st?
> 
> On 2/01/2017, at 1:54 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> 
>> I wonder if someone wasn't ready for their extra second :
>> 
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38482746
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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Hal Murray]

time-nuts@febo.com said:
> Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the world,
> or are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of those in
> the UK for half of Jan 1st? 

It's added at the end of the last day of a month, UTC.

That makes if 4PM local time in California, a convenient time for watching 
toys.
 
Leap seconds at the end of June could happen at inconvenient local times.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] new year crashes

[Andy ZL3AG via time-nuts]

If so, they should think about adding the leap second on the night of the 2nd 
wednesday of January, or such a time when things are quieter around the world.

Do they add the leap second at the same moment in time throughout the world, or 
are the clocks here in NZ running 13 hours and 1 second ahead of those in the 
UK for half of Jan 1st?

On 2/01/2017, at 1:54 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote:

> I wonder if someone wasn't ready for their extra second :
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38482746
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[time-nuts] new year crashes

[Adrian Godwin]

I wonder if someone wasn't ready for their extra second :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38482746
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