Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Bernd Neubig]

Hi
Regarding the manuals,
I must look in my paper archive. I remember to have two manuals of two types of 
those "old test sets". I have even one of the test sets  in my "museum".
It will take a while to dig, as I am going to travel for 10 days.

I will come back after that.

Regards
Bernd

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von 
tim...@timeok.it
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Mai 2018 18:53
An: time-nuts@febo.com
Betreff: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual


Hi all,
   Thank you all for the precious answers and the links you sent me.
   I'm studying them very carefully.
   I still continue to look for the manual of the 5950 because I like to keep 
the manuals of all the measuring instruments I have in my laboratory.
   Thanks again
   Luciano
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Tim Shoppa]

I don't know how to use that particular Boonton unit. BUT...

This is a different (more automated) unit which came maybe 10 years later.
The guy does a good job showing how it works and uses it on real crystals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-rCgumTn4Q=youtu.be=4m37s

Experimental Methods in RF Design shows how to a couple different simple
benchtop jigs to measure crystal motional parameters and compute Q.

Tim N3QE

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 4:44 AM, tim...@timeok.it  wrote:

>
>Hi all,
>I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc,
> Boonton.
>I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any
> documentation.
>I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
>I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual
> and can share it with me.
>Look at the picture thanks
>Luciano
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Basically when the modern era of network analyzer / standards calibrated 
devices came along, it was the
end of most of these magic test sets with knobs and dials. The Saunders stuff 
lived on well into that era, 
mainly because it was relatively inexpensive and most of the calibration was 
simple to do. The conversion
to what we would now call network analyzer techniques was well underway in the 
1970’s. It took us quite
a bit of work to get from there to where we are today. 

The operating principle of the older magic boxes is fairly simple. Build up an 
oscillator circuit that can be 
switched around to run over a wide range of frequencies and impedances. It 
generally is a very poor 
oscillator, but that’s not the point. Come up with a way to “zero” it to a 
given impedance and frequency. 
Plug in crystals and see how they deviate in impedance and nominal frequency. 
Shove in a load capacitance  
change and note the frequency change. From that data, you can calculate the 
crystal parameters.  To
the degree all the stray this and that is nulled out, your data will be more or 
less accurate.

Bob

> On May 24, 2018, at 1:40 AM, Bernd Neubig <bneu...@t-online.de> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> on the website of my company you can find a list of papers on the subject of 
> crystal measurement techniques.
> http://www.axtal.com/English/TechnicalNotes/TechnicalArticlesPublications/LiteratureaboutQuartzCrystals/
> 
> The actual standard procedure for crystal  measurement is by using modern 
> network analyzers with error correction, as given in the IEC publication 
> 60444-5. 
> A description of the method and its variants can be found in my 2012 paper 
> listed on the mentioned website.
> Enjoy
> 
> Bernd DK1AG
> 
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Brooke 
> Clarke
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Mai 2018 20:13
> An: tim...@timeok.it; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual
> 
> Hi Luciano:
> 
> I have some web pages about crystals and testing them:
> http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html - Crystal Impedance Meters 
> (Saunders 150) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xtal.shtml#TE - Crystals in general & 
> Test Equipment (see Trivia below) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xam.html - Crystal 
> Activity Meters http://www.prc68.com/I/Xec.shtml - Equivalent Circuit 
> http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#ZT - The Z transform method is also used 
> in commercial crystal test sets like the HP E4915, E4916, E5100.
> 
> Trivia: The HP 4194 may be the only instrument that can really characterize 
> watch crystals ( 32768 Hz) for impedance which is in the meg Ohms range.  
> Some of the HP network analyzers can fit swept frequency data into an 
> equivalent crystal equivalent circuit.
> 
> --
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> 
>  Original Message 
>>Hi all,
>>I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
>> Boonton.
>>I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
>> documentation.
>>I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
>>I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
>> can share it with me.
>>Look at the picture thanks
>>Luciano
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

The DG8SAQ vector network analyzer has a built-in routine to 
characterize crystals.


It may not be "correct" to simply plug them on port 1, but the results 
are quite


reasonable. The right thing to sort out a bag of NOS crystals and 
finding the good ones


or to get a somewhat realistic simulation model.

regards, Gerhard


Am 24.05.2018 um 08:07 schrieb Magnus Danielson:

Hi Bernd,

On 05/24/2018 07:40 AM, Bernd Neubig wrote:


(good stuff snipped)
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bernd,

On 05/24/2018 07:40 AM, Bernd Neubig wrote:
> Hello,
> on the website of my company you can find a list of papers on the subject of 
> crystal measurement techniques.
> http://www.axtal.com/English/TechnicalNotes/TechnicalArticlesPublications/LiteratureaboutQuartzCrystals/
> 
> The actual standard procedure for crystal  measurement is by using modern 
> network analyzers with error correction, as given in the IEC publication 
> 60444-5. 
> A description of the method and its variants can be found in my 2012 paper 
> listed on the mentioned website.

I was hoping you would chime in on this thread eventually. Looks very
interesting.

It seems I should do some software processing after sweeping using my
HP4195A. It hss some internal matching, but you have warned that it gets
confused about wide-band or narrow-band properties :)

> Enjoy

Always! :)

Cheers,
Magnus

> Bernd DK1AG
> 
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Brooke 
> Clarke
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Mai 2018 20:13
> An: tim...@timeok.it; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual
> 
> Hi Luciano:
> 
> I have some web pages about crystals and testing them:
> http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html - Crystal Impedance Meters 
> (Saunders 150) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xtal.shtml#TE - Crystals in general & 
> Test Equipment (see Trivia below) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xam.html - Crystal 
> Activity Meters http://www.prc68.com/I/Xec.shtml - Equivalent Circuit 
> http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#ZT - The Z transform method is also used 
> in commercial crystal test sets like the HP E4915, E4916, E5100.
> 
> Trivia: The HP 4194 may be the only instrument that can really characterize 
> watch crystals ( 32768 Hz) for impedance which is in the meg Ohms range.  
> Some of the HP network analyzers can fit swept frequency data into an 
> equivalent crystal equivalent circuit.
> 
> --
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> 
>  Original Message 
>> Hi all,
>> I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
>> Boonton.
>> I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
>> documentation.
>> I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
>> I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
>> can share it with me.
>> Look at the picture thanks
>> Luciano
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Bernd Neubig]

Hello,
on the website of my company you can find a list of papers on the subject of 
crystal measurement techniques.
http://www.axtal.com/English/TechnicalNotes/TechnicalArticlesPublications/LiteratureaboutQuartzCrystals/

The actual standard procedure for crystal  measurement is by using modern 
network analyzers with error correction, as given in the IEC publication 
60444-5. 
A description of the method and its variants can be found in my 2012 paper 
listed on the mentioned website.
Enjoy

Bernd DK1AG


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Brooke Clarke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Mai 2018 20:13
An: tim...@timeok.it; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

Hi Luciano:

I have some web pages about crystals and testing them:
http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html - Crystal Impedance Meters 
(Saunders 150) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xtal.shtml#TE - Crystals in general & 
Test Equipment (see Trivia below) http://www.prc68.com/I/Xam.html - Crystal 
Activity Meters http://www.prc68.com/I/Xec.shtml - Equivalent Circuit 
http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#ZT - The Z transform method is also used in 
commercial crystal test sets like the HP E4915, E4916, E5100.

Trivia: The HP 4194 may be the only instrument that can really characterize 
watch crystals ( 32768 Hz) for impedance which is in the meg Ohms range.  Some 
of the HP network analyzers can fit swept frequency data into an equivalent 
crystal equivalent circuit.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 
> Hi all,
> I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
> Boonton.
> I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
> documentation.
> I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
> I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
> can share it with me.
> Look at the picture thanks
> Luciano
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Luciano:

I have some web pages about crystals and testing them:
http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html - Crystal Impedance Meters 
(Saunders 150)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Xtal.shtml#TE - Crystals in general & Test Equipment 
(see Trivia below)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Xam.html - Crystal Activity Meters
http://www.prc68.com/I/Xec.shtml - Equivalent Circuit
http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#ZT - The Z transform method is also used in commercial crystal test sets like the HP 
E4915, E4916, E5100.


Trivia: The HP 4194 may be the only instrument that can really characterize watch crystals ( 32768 Hz) for impedance 
which is in the meg Ohms range.  Some of the HP network analyzers can fit swept frequency data into an equivalent 
crystal equivalent circuit.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 

Hi all,
I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
Boonton.
I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
documentation.
I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
can share it with me.
Look at the picture thanks
Luciano


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Re: [time-nuts] 5950 Crystal impedance meter manual

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Gizmo’s like that were very common in the days before network analyzers became 
good enough to measure a crystal. They always were a troublesome item to keep 
running accurately. Without accuracy, their value was a bit limited. Every 
place I 
know of had a big drawer ( or cabinet ) of “magic crystals”. You plugged them in
and adjusted the instrument until they all read as they should. One could easily
challenge this in terms of accuracy. It did ensure that all the meters in the 
plant 
had some chance of reading the outgoing product the same way. 

So - you don’t just need the manual, you also need the batch of calibration 
crystals
(and their data) that went with it. Then you can duplicate the readings from 
whatever 
factory used it ….

Lots of fun !!!

Bob

> On May 23, 2018, at 4:44 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hi all,
>   I found this Crystal Impedande Meter produced by RFL Industries inc, 
> Boonton.
>   I would like to understand how to use it and I do not have any 
> documentation.
>   I'm not even able to figure out if it works properly.
>   I would like to ask you if someone owns the service/operating manual and 
> can share it with me.
>   Look at the picture thanks
>   Luciano
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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