Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Charles Steinmetz]

Bob wrote:


The R390 ran at 200 KHz and divided by two, but that’s an oddball. After
the fact they figured out that the approach really did not improve things.


Actually, it was the later R390A that used a 200kHz crystal and divided 
by two.  The original (earlier) R390 used a 1MHz crystal and divided by 
10.  In both cases, the "division" was accomplished by injection locking 
an astable multivibrator running with a natural period of ~100kHz.


Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Bob Camp]

Hi

As the “prime” for that sort of operation, they could easily have 
sub-contracted all sorts of things to
many different places. The net result could have been all sorts of items made 
by various outfits that
ultimately got a WE tag on them. 

Bob


> On Jun 5, 2016, at 8:36 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 6/5/16 4:40 AM, Eric Scace wrote:
>> http://www.loran-history.info/Johnston_Island/Johnston%20-%20OSC%20Msg%20221416Z%20Oct%2064.pdf
>>  states than an O-451/U oscillator was shipped to the Johnston Island LORAN 
>> station in 1967. We are getting closer...
>> 
>> I am the owner of O-451A/U serial number 11. I would appreciate any 
>> documentation that people uncover. Although the USCG property tag says 
>> Western Electric was the contractor, some have suggested the construction 
>> reminds them of General Radio practices...
>> 
> 
> Western Electric operated Sandia Corporation(the civilian nuclear weapons 
> development and production company) starting in 1949 when it was split off 
> from Los Alamos.  Immediately post war, University of California, who 
> operated Los Alamos, didn't want to be involved in weapons development, so it 
> was split off.
> 
> Historically, there has been a pairing of a Sandia facility with Los Alamos 
> and Livermore.
> 
> Johnston Island has been used for rocket launches and various nuclear testing 
> for years (e.g. Teak, Dominic), as well as nuclear detection and 
> anti-satellite research.
> 
> It is no surprise that Western Electric would be sending timing equipment to 
> Johnston Island.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[jimlux]

On 6/5/16 4:40 AM, Eric Scace wrote:

http://www.loran-history.info/Johnston_Island/Johnston%20-%20OSC%20Msg%20221416Z%20Oct%2064.pdf
 states than an O-451/U oscillator was shipped to the Johnston Island LORAN 
station in 1967. We are getting closer...

I am the owner of O-451A/U serial number 11. I would appreciate any 
documentation that people uncover. Although the USCG property tag says Western 
Electric was the contractor, some have suggested the construction reminds them 
of General Radio practices...



Western Electric operated Sandia Corporation(the civilian nuclear 
weapons development and production company) starting in 1949 when it was 
split off from Los Alamos.  Immediately post war, University of 
California, who operated Los Alamos, didn't want to be involved in 
weapons development, so it was split off.


Historically, there has been a pairing of a Sandia facility with Los 
Alamos and Livermore.


Johnston Island has been used for rocket launches and various nuclear 
testing for years (e.g. Teak, Dominic), as well as nuclear detection and 
anti-satellite research.


It is no surprise that Western Electric would be sending timing 
equipment to Johnston Island.



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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Given the utter PIA that dividing things down used to be, running at 100 KHz is 
not a 
bad way to go. The R390 ran at 200 KHz and divided by two, but that’s an 
oddball. After
the fact they figured out that the approach really did not improve things. 

If you move up to a resonator a bit bigger than a grapefruit in size, you can 
improve things a bit.
The cost of that part will be a bit high. Given it’s weight, it’s not going to 
be very rugged. 
One or the other will rule it out in 99.999% of the applications. 

Bob

> On Jun 4, 2016, at 10:49 PM, Ian Stirling  wrote:
> 
> On 06/04/2016 08:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> 
>> Not accurate, but at least a hand waving sort of number:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> It serves a crystal calibrator marker on each 100 kHz of a
> ten inch dial 600 kHz wide. It is good enough for the job,
> but not really in the time-nuts realm, except for the accuracy
> required.
> 
> Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
> --
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Eric Scace]

http://www.loran-history.info/Johnston_Island/Johnston%20-%20OSC%20Msg%20221416Z%20Oct%2064.pdf
 states than an O-451/U oscillator was shipped to the Johnston Island LORAN 
station in 1967. We are getting closer...

I am the owner of O-451A/U serial number 11. I would appreciate any 
documentation that people uncover. Although the USCG property tag says Western 
Electric was the contractor, some have suggested the construction reminds them 
of General Radio practices...

Thanks, all.

— Eric K3NA

> On Jun 5, 2016, at 03:18, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message , cdel...@juno.com writes:
>> Got an email from someone who has the main unit!
>> 
>> Found out that the assy. is from an O-451A/U.
>> 
>> Possibly coast guard.
> 
> Could be the original LORAN-A/B timebase...
> 
> As far as I know, LORAN-C was the first with Cesium
> 
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , cdel...@juno.com writes:
>Got an email from someone who has the main unit!
>
>Found out that the assy. is from an O-451A/U.
>
>Possibly coast guard.

Could be the original LORAN-A/B timebase...

As far as I know, LORAN-C was the first with Cesium


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Ian Stirling]

On 06/04/2016 08:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:


Not accurate, but at least a hand waving sort of number:


Bob,

 It serves a crystal calibrator marker on each 100 kHz of a
ten inch dial 600 kHz wide. It is good enough for the job,
but not really in the time-nuts realm, except for the accuracy
required.

Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
--

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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The “small” (less than a pound) 100 KHz crystals are not really great 
in terms of performance. If you get a GT (big thin square plate with attach 
right in the middle) they can have ok temperature performance. Because of 
their small size, their Q is relatively low and thus things like phase noise and
ADEV are not very good. 

Not accurate, but at least a hand waving sort of number:

If a high Q 5 MHz is 0.5” diameter *and* you did the same design at 
100 KHz, it’s going to be 25” in diameter. (Obviously not the way to do it). 

Bob

> On Jun 4, 2016, at 12:59 AM, Ian Stirling  wrote:
> 
>  It looks like the quartz is in the sealed glass "valve", or "tube".
> 
>  I have removed a similar glass vacuum enclosed 100 kHz frequency
> marker generator from my Eddystone EA12 receiver that I bought from
> Tom Roberts, G3YTO (SK 1985), in September 1978. I don't use the EA12
> any more and I wonder what kind of timing device I can make from this
> beautiful slab of quartz, approximately 28 x 5 x 2 mm. I don't have a
> data sheet for it, but I can see which pins are connected to the quartz.
> In the receiver, it has a spring stabilized black metal cover that mates
> to the socket. I suspect that is so that the thirteen valves and their
> heaters create a thermal equilibrium and the black shroud lets the
> crystal bathe in it. I ran the EA12 24/7 from then until I bought and
> used an IC-735 in January 1987.
> 
> It is a GEC Crystal Unit, 100 kHz, serial number 82690 and type JCF/193,
> "Made in England", and it looks like it means business.
> 
> Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
> --
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Mike Cook]

> Le 4 juin 2016 à 06:59, Ian Stirling  a écrit :
> 
>  It looks like the quartz is in the sealed glass "valve", or "tube".
> 
>  I have removed a similar glass vacuum enclosed 100 kHz frequency
> marker generator from my Eddystone EA12 receiver that I bought from
> Tom Roberts, G3YTO (SK 1985), in September 1978. I don't use the EA12
> any more and I wonder what kind of timing device I can make from this
> beautiful slab of quartz, approximately 28 x 5 x 2 mm. I don't have a
> data sheet for it, but I can see which pins are connected to the quartz.
> In the receiver, it has a spring stabilized black metal cover that mates
> to the socket. I suspect that is so that the thirteen valves and their
> heaters create a thermal equilibrium and the black shroud lets the
> crystal bathe in it. I ran the EA12 24/7 from then until I bought and
> used an IC-735 in January 1987.

If you haven’t yet thrown out the EA12 you could try to trace the oscillator 
circuit into which it was plugged, recover the socket and duplicate the circuit 
with modern components. Once working you could add a divider circuit and 
include it in a led clock.  

I have been trying to get some old crystals  singing again using a Pierce 
circuit. Results are not brilliant. 
I could start some of the later 1-5MHz range , but had no luck with low 
frequency. I cannot get really clean output from even those that start so I am 
missing something. Some of the slabs are giants ( one marked 1292Hz +/- 10^-5) 
and I would love to get them started. Some of them are real works of art as 
well. 

I’ll post to a new thread with a req. for ideas.

> 
> It is a GEC Crystal Unit, 100 kHz, serial number 82690 and type JCF/193,
> "Made in England", and it looks like it means business.
> 
> Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
> --
> 
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Ian Stirling]

  It looks like the quartz is in the sealed glass "valve", or "tube".

  I have removed a similar glass vacuum enclosed 100 kHz frequency
marker generator from my Eddystone EA12 receiver that I bought from
Tom Roberts, G3YTO (SK 1985), in September 1978. I don't use the EA12
any more and I wonder what kind of timing device I can make from this
beautiful slab of quartz, approximately 28 x 5 x 2 mm. I don't have a
data sheet for it, but I can see which pins are connected to the quartz.
In the receiver, it has a spring stabilized black metal cover that mates
to the socket. I suspect that is so that the thirteen valves and their
heaters create a thermal equilibrium and the black shroud lets the
crystal bathe in it. I ran the EA12 24/7 from then until I bought and
used an IC-735 in January 1987.

 It is a GEC Crystal Unit, 100 kHz, serial number 82690 and type JCF/193,
"Made in England", and it looks like it means business.

Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
--

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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[paul swed]

Insulation and will guess a vacuum flask perhaps around the xtal. Just a
guess.
Or maybe its all to keep the tube warm. Humor intended.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 5:07 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> Moin!
>
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:21:43 -0700
>  wrote:
>
> > All the Rf buffering, AGC, oven control are external and missing.
> >
> > Plus it's most likely 100KHz or 1Mhz.
> >
> > If I end up junking it I'll post a PIX of the crystal once I dig down and
> > find it.
> >
> > If anyone here wants it at the $100.00 let me know.
> >
> > If not in a week I'll take it all apart just to look, and scrap what I
> > don't keep.
> >
> > Attached are some PIX of it.
>
> If there is nothing inside but an oscillator, why is this oven
> so insanely big? Thermal mass?
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
> -- unknown
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Attila Kinali]

Moin!

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:21:43 -0700
 wrote:

> All the Rf buffering, AGC, oven control are external and missing.
> 
> Plus it's most likely 100KHz or 1Mhz. 
> 
> If I end up junking it I'll post a PIX of the crystal once I dig down and
> find it.
> 
> If anyone here wants it at the $100.00 let me know. 
> 
> If not in a week I'll take it all apart just to look, and scrap what I
> don't keep.
> 
> Attached are some PIX of it.

If there is nothing inside but an oscillator, why is this oven
so insanely big? Thermal mass?

Attila Kinali

-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
-- unknown
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[paul swed]

How about that. There is a tube as you said.Pretty interesting. But I have
my sulzers for old technology. Good enuf as they say.
I have two HP xtals I can find no info on. Picked them up recently for
nothing.
They look pretty nice and I will at least check there frequency could be 1
MHz or 100KHz pretty large glass envelope. HP Part number g-170a-03.
My searches found nothing on the internet.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:21 PM,  wrote:

> Paul.
>
> I actually paid the asking price of $100.00 each + tax and shipping!
>
> After seeing the non HP one I'm not interested in restoring it as it's
> just the oscillator.
>
> All the Rf buffering, AGC, oven control are external and missing.
>
> Plus it's most likely 100KHz or 1Mhz.
>
> If I end up junking it I'll post a PIX of the crystal once I dig down and
> find it.
>
> If anyone here wants it at the $100.00 let me know.
>
> If not in a week I'll take it all apart just to look, and scrap what I
> don't keep.
>
> Attached are some PIX of it.
>
> The 106B only requires +24VDC to run and no other external circuits as
> everything is built in.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[paul swed]

Corby congratulations. Fun email to read.I suspect you made them quite the
reasonable offer. Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 11:58 AM,  wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Thanks for the heads up!
>
> I purchased both units and they arrived yesterday.
>
> I was worried for a moment as the HP106 assy. also had an HP107 part
> number on a label on the side.
>
> I realized that it was too big in diameter to fit a 107 but wonder why HP
> put that label on it???
>
> Carefully disassembled it and everything looked very nice inside
> including the giant Bliley 2.5Mhz XTAL.
>
> I had to clean off a bit of cadmium "fungus" off a few of the mechanical
> mounting parts.
>
> Also there are 3 of the old style white Vitromon capacitors in the
> oscillator section.
>
> These caps had tin whiskers "crowns" covering each end! They were removed
> easily with a small stiff brush.
>
> Now to apply some 24VDC and see if it fires up!
>
> The other unit has no identifying information, the two end caps come off
> by pushing three  locking slides over and pulling.
>
> Inside the adjustment end there is a small (7 or 9) pin electron tube!
> The oven end construction reminds me of a General Radio oven I one worked
> on.
>
> Built like a battleship!
>
> Anyone have any idea what it might come from. I'll try and post a PIX
> later.
>
> Might be 100Khz or 1Mhz.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Early on, I worked for one of the guys who made the crystals for the 106’s. A 
typical yield after seal was in the 10% range. 
 The parts that didn’t make it in the 10% were scrap. The 10% was not the total 
loss in the process, just the loss after they 
closed up the enclosure. Total yield from blanks way something *way* below 
that. It was not a “low cost” part at all. 

Bob


> On May 29, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  
> wrote:
> 
> Len Cutler proudly displayed an HP106 in his
> office.  It was one of the examples of Len's
> philosophy of making the best possible design
> rather than a "good enough" design.  I never
> heard what happened to it when he passed
> away.
> 
> Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

Len Cutler proudly displayed an HP106 in his
office.  It was one of the examples of Len's
philosophy of making the best possible design
rather than a "good enough" design.  I never
heard what happened to it when he passed
away.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your keen eye and for sharing this with the group.

That massive foot-long cylinder is from the late 60's double oven HP 106, the 
best vintage quartz frequency standard hp ever made. I have some here in the 
"museum"; short-term stability near 2e-13, long-term drift around 1e-11 over 40 
days (3e-13/day). Very rare these days. Based on a massive ultra high stability 
2.5 Mc quartz resonator. Truly a thing of cold-war beauty inside. See also:

http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp106a/
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp106b/

Of course, there are no guarantees that what you saw was in working condition. 
And it's missing the rest of electronics. But if someone wants a "project" it 
is worth it, even at ten times that price. Surely someone on the list can give 
it the attention it may need. Whoever gets it, please contact me eventually for 
suggestions on bringing it back to life. It deserves it.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Putnam" 
To: "Time Nuts" 
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 1:21 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale


> Greetings,
> 
> The dealer noted below had two hp ovens for sale at the W6TRW Ham Swap 
> meet in Redondo Beach, CA., on May 28th.
> 
> 
> The first is a cylinder about a foot long and 5 inches in diameter with 
> few sma-size connectors and four shock-mounts attached to the sides. It 
> is marked:
> hp oven 00106-6015 Series # 524
> 
> 
> The second is similar in size, but is not marked. It differs from the 
> first in that it has two wiring pigtails, each about a foot long, 
> terminated with connectors. At one end is a mechanical adjustment with a 
> three-digit counter indicating "parts in 10e-10".
> 
> 
> The asking price is $100 each.
> 
> 
> I have no financial interest in any transactions that take place. You 
> must deal with the owner directly.
> 
> ApTec Electronics
> P.O. Box 101
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> 
> http://www.aptecelectronics.com/
>

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