Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

[Christopher Hoover]

Tom,

Please see:

  https://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Manuals/om-2128.pdf

  https://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Manuals/om-2129.pdf


OEM628 and OEM638 boards can take an external frequency reference
(218/4.10.5), but OEM615 cannot.   I've never tried it.


To get the exact time of the PPS you need to enable the TIME message
(219/3.2.173) with something like (untested):

  LOG TIMEA ONTIME 1



A typical way to use the Novatel solution is to wire signals for the events
of interest -- say a camera shutter or start of frame (SOF) or a LIDAR
start of scan (SOS) -- into the receiver on one of the several event inputs.

With a suitable configuration, the log will contain messages with the
current 6-dof + time solution for the event edges.

If you are also logging the full receiver state, you can post-process the
events into better 6-dof + time solutions.



-- Christopher
73 de AI6KG








On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:

> Christopher,
>
> Thanks for that additional information. Can you (or Gregory) also comment
> on the external frequency input / output and the 1PPS output of this
> receiver?
>
> A quick look at the om-2128.pdf and om-2129.pdf documents has
> words like "better than 250 ns accuracy" and "50 ns increments" but I
> didn't see mention of 1PPS quantization, sawtooth correction, or other
> words commonly used in GPS timing receiver specifications. I'm guessing
> this product is mostly designed for the PN part of PNT (Positioning,
> Navigation, Timing)?
>
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Christopher Hoover" <c...@murgatroid.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay
>
>
> >I have quite a bit of experience with Novatel hardware include OEM6, CPT
> > and SPAN.
> >
> > CPT is an IMU made by KVH and relabeled by Novatel.The accelerometers
> > are MEMs and the roll rate sensors are FOGs.   Pretty old design.
> > Performance is decent (but not auto alignment good).
> >
> > http://www.kvh.com/Military-and-Government/Gyros-and-
> Inertial-Systems-and-Compasses/Gyros-and-IMUs-and-INS/IMUs/CG-5100.aspx
> >
> > SPAN is the "solution."SPAN-CPT puts the CPT IMU and the receiver in
> a
> > single box.   You could also get just the CPT in a box.
> >
> > The feature set enabled depends on the software keys that are loaded.
> > Caveat emptor.
> >
> > Dual receiver (even if you have the hardware) and ALIGN feature are extra
> > features.
> >
> > Also worth noting is that the circular connectors used on some of the
> > hardware are pricey.  Some are impossible to assemble without specialty
> > tools.
> >
> > -- Christopher.
> > 73 de AI6KG
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:36 PM, J. L. Trantham <jlt...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Any idea what they are selling for at this time?
> >>
> >> I see that some sold for the BIN price of $349.99 up until June 20.
> After
> >> that, 'Offer Accepted' occurred up through October 5, with a BIN price
> now
> >> of $649.99, all plus $40 shipping.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of
> Gregory
> >> Maxwell
> >> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:17 PM
> >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay
> >>
> >> There is an ebay listing for "Novatel GPS-702-GG with SPAN-CPT Single
> >> Enclosure GNSS/INS Receiver + Cable" with a fairly large number
> available.
> >>
> >> This is a Novatel OEM628 dual frequency receiver (supports GPS, Glonass,
> >> SBAS, apparently including L1C and L2C), plus a three fiber ring gyros
> >> (with bias performance that blows away any mems gyro I've ever used)
> and an
> >> 3-axis mems acceletrometer in an aluminum case, plus a decent dual
> >> frequency antenna.  This is a generation-ish old kit.
> >> The industrial casing conspires to make it look somewhat less modern
> than
> >> it actually is.
> >>
> >> The receivers have external clock input (though not plumbed to the
> outside
> >> of the case) which appears to work though I didn't try much with it yet.
> >> Mine came with 2013-ish firmware but easily upgraded to current (201

Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

One would *guess* that since it has the 702 antenna on it, it does have L1/L2 
firmware enabled
in the receiver ( 701 = single L1 band, 702 = L1 / L2, 703 = L1,L2.L5 ). Indeed 
the hardware 
spans a wide range of “things” depending on the exact license keys you shoot 
into it. Buying 
those keys “after the fact” never seemed to be very cost effective ….

Bob

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 4:02 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
> 
> Christopher,
> 
> Thanks for that additional information. Can you (or Gregory) also comment on 
> the external frequency input / output and the 1PPS output of this receiver?
> 
> A quick look at the om-2128.pdf and om-2129.pdf documents has words 
> like "better than 250 ns accuracy" and "50 ns increments" but I didn't see 
> mention of 1PPS quantization, sawtooth correction, or other words commonly 
> used in GPS timing receiver specifications. I'm guessing this product is 
> mostly designed for the PN part of PNT (Positioning, Navigation, Timing)?
> 
> /tvb
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Christopher Hoover" <c...@murgatroid.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay
> 
> 
>> I have quite a bit of experience with Novatel hardware include OEM6, CPT
>> and SPAN.
>> 
>> CPT is an IMU made by KVH and relabeled by Novatel.The accelerometers
>> are MEMs and the roll rate sensors are FOGs.   Pretty old design.
>> Performance is decent (but not auto alignment good).
>> 
>> http://www.kvh.com/Military-and-Government/Gyros-and-Inertial-Systems-and-Compasses/Gyros-and-IMUs-and-INS/IMUs/CG-5100.aspx
>> 
>> SPAN is the "solution."SPAN-CPT puts the CPT IMU and the receiver in a
>> single box.   You could also get just the CPT in a box.
>> 
>> The feature set enabled depends on the software keys that are loaded.
>> Caveat emptor.
>> 
>> Dual receiver (even if you have the hardware) and ALIGN feature are extra
>> features.
>> 
>> Also worth noting is that the circular connectors used on some of the
>> hardware are pricey.  Some are impossible to assemble without specialty
>> tools.
>> 
>> -- Christopher.
>> 73 de AI6KG
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:36 PM, J. L. Trantham <jlt...@att.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Any idea what they are selling for at this time?
>>> 
>>> I see that some sold for the BIN price of $349.99 up until June 20.  After
>>> that, 'Offer Accepted' occurred up through October 5, with a BIN price now
>>> of $649.99, all plus $40 shipping.
>>> 
>>> Joe
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory
>>> Maxwell
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:17 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay
>>> 
>>> There is an ebay listing for "Novatel GPS-702-GG with SPAN-CPT Single
>>> Enclosure GNSS/INS Receiver + Cable" with a fairly large number available.
>>> 
>>> This is a Novatel OEM628 dual frequency receiver (supports GPS, Glonass,
>>> SBAS, apparently including L1C and L2C), plus a three fiber ring gyros
>>> (with bias performance that blows away any mems gyro I've ever used) and an
>>> 3-axis mems acceletrometer in an aluminum case, plus a decent dual
>>> frequency antenna.  This is a generation-ish old kit.
>>> The industrial casing conspires to make it look somewhat less modern than
>>> it actually is.
>>> 
>>> The receivers have external clock input (though not plumbed to the outside
>>> of the case) which appears to work though I didn't try much with it yet.
>>> Mine came with 2013-ish firmware but easily upgraded to current (2016)
>>> firmware. There is a windows based firmware update tool which talks to it
>>> over serial and is very straight forward (The firmware update OEM6631.zip
>>> can be found via google).
>>> 
>>> You can communicate with them over serial in ascii, there is extensive
>>> firmware documentation that goes over every command
>>> https://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Manuals/om-2129.pdf  some of
>>> which are specific to other modules. There is also a separate manual for
>>> the inertial navigation specific features (NovAtel SPAN-CPT Users
>>

Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <6C47315934DF482EB10A679D10C09093@pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes:

>I'm guessing this product is
>mostly designed for the PN part of PNT (Positioning, Navigation, Timing)?

At least with the firmwares I have had a chance to test, that is clearly
the case.  I don't know if they have firmware revs focused on timing,
but even if they do, the hardware for the PPS output doesn't seem particularly
well geared towards real-time uses, but more for post-factum correction.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

[Tom Van Baak]

Christopher,

Thanks for that additional information. Can you (or Gregory) also comment on 
the external frequency input / output and the 1PPS output of this receiver?

A quick look at the om-2128.pdf and om-2129.pdf documents has words 
like "better than 250 ns accuracy" and "50 ns increments" but I didn't see 
mention of 1PPS quantization, sawtooth correction, or other words commonly used 
in GPS timing receiver specifications. I'm guessing this product is mostly 
designed for the PN part of PNT (Positioning, Navigation, Timing)?

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Hoover" <c...@murgatroid.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay


>I have quite a bit of experience with Novatel hardware include OEM6, CPT
> and SPAN.
> 
> CPT is an IMU made by KVH and relabeled by Novatel.The accelerometers
> are MEMs and the roll rate sensors are FOGs.   Pretty old design.
> Performance is decent (but not auto alignment good).
> 
> http://www.kvh.com/Military-and-Government/Gyros-and-Inertial-Systems-and-Compasses/Gyros-and-IMUs-and-INS/IMUs/CG-5100.aspx
> 
> SPAN is the "solution."SPAN-CPT puts the CPT IMU and the receiver in a
> single box.   You could also get just the CPT in a box.
> 
> The feature set enabled depends on the software keys that are loaded.
> Caveat emptor.
> 
> Dual receiver (even if you have the hardware) and ALIGN feature are extra
> features.
> 
> Also worth noting is that the circular connectors used on some of the
> hardware are pricey.  Some are impossible to assemble without specialty
> tools.
> 
> -- Christopher.
> 73 de AI6KG
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:36 PM, J. L. Trantham <jlt...@att.net> wrote:
> 
>> Any idea what they are selling for at this time?
>>
>> I see that some sold for the BIN price of $349.99 up until June 20.  After
>> that, 'Offer Accepted' occurred up through October 5, with a BIN price now
>> of $649.99, all plus $40 shipping.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory
>> Maxwell
>> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:17 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay
>>
>> There is an ebay listing for "Novatel GPS-702-GG with SPAN-CPT Single
>> Enclosure GNSS/INS Receiver + Cable" with a fairly large number available.
>>
>> This is a Novatel OEM628 dual frequency receiver (supports GPS, Glonass,
>> SBAS, apparently including L1C and L2C), plus a three fiber ring gyros
>> (with bias performance that blows away any mems gyro I've ever used) and an
>> 3-axis mems acceletrometer in an aluminum case, plus a decent dual
>> frequency antenna.  This is a generation-ish old kit.
>> The industrial casing conspires to make it look somewhat less modern than
>> it actually is.
>>
>> The receivers have external clock input (though not plumbed to the outside
>> of the case) which appears to work though I didn't try much with it yet.
>> Mine came with 2013-ish firmware but easily upgraded to current (2016)
>> firmware. There is a windows based firmware update tool which talks to it
>> over serial and is very straight forward (The firmware update OEM6631.zip
>> can be found via google).
>>
>> You can communicate with them over serial in ascii, there is extensive
>> firmware documentation that goes over every command
>> https://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Manuals/om-2129.pdf  some of
>> which are specific to other modules. There is also a separate manual for
>> the inertial navigation specific features (NovAtel SPAN-CPT Users
>> manual.pdf)
>>
>> The external clock should allow you to hang it off a more stable
>> oscillator which will improve the stability of the GNSS results, and _I
>> presume_ improve the quality of the PPS output-- the firmware manual and
>> operating manual are thin on details, and mostly just go into telling you
>> how to adjust the kalman filter constants for different clock types.
>>
>> These also appear to support the novatel 'align' mode where you serial
>> connect two receivers separated by a short baseline and get really accurate
>> absolute headings; I'm planning on trying that that but haven't set it up
>> yet.
>>
>> Looks like uber (last position was ubers offices in denver) had a fleet of
>> these things. The couple I got run 

Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

[Christopher Hoover]

I have quite a bit of experience with Novatel hardware include OEM6, CPT
and SPAN.

CPT is an IMU made by KVH and relabeled by Novatel.The accelerometers
are MEMs and the roll rate sensors are FOGs.   Pretty old design.
Performance is decent (but not auto alignment good).

http://www.kvh.com/Military-and-Government/Gyros-and-Inertial-Systems-and-Compasses/Gyros-and-IMUs-and-INS/IMUs/CG-5100.aspx

SPAN is the "solution."SPAN-CPT puts the CPT IMU and the receiver in a
single box.   You could also get just the CPT in a box.

The feature set enabled depends on the software keys that are loaded.
Caveat emptor.

Dual receiver (even if you have the hardware) and ALIGN feature are extra
features.

Also worth noting is that the circular connectors used on some of the
hardware are pricey.  Some are impossible to assemble without specialty
tools.

-- Christopher.
73 de AI6KG


On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:36 PM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> Any idea what they are selling for at this time?
>
> I see that some sold for the BIN price of $349.99 up until June 20.  After
> that, 'Offer Accepted' occurred up through October 5, with a BIN price now
> of $649.99, all plus $40 shipping.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory
> Maxwell
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:17 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay
>
> There is an ebay listing for "Novatel GPS-702-GG with SPAN-CPT Single
> Enclosure GNSS/INS Receiver + Cable" with a fairly large number available.
>
> This is a Novatel OEM628 dual frequency receiver (supports GPS, Glonass,
> SBAS, apparently including L1C and L2C), plus a three fiber ring gyros
> (with bias performance that blows away any mems gyro I've ever used) and an
> 3-axis mems acceletrometer in an aluminum case, plus a decent dual
> frequency antenna.  This is a generation-ish old kit.
> The industrial casing conspires to make it look somewhat less modern than
> it actually is.
>
> The receivers have external clock input (though not plumbed to the outside
> of the case) which appears to work though I didn't try much with it yet.
> Mine came with 2013-ish firmware but easily upgraded to current (2016)
> firmware. There is a windows based firmware update tool which talks to it
> over serial and is very straight forward (The firmware update OEM6631.zip
> can be found via google).
>
> You can communicate with them over serial in ascii, there is extensive
> firmware documentation that goes over every command
> https://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Manuals/om-2129.pdf  some of
> which are specific to other modules. There is also a separate manual for
> the inertial navigation specific features (NovAtel SPAN-CPT Users
> manual.pdf)
>
> The external clock should allow you to hang it off a more stable
> oscillator which will improve the stability of the GNSS results, and _I
> presume_ improve the quality of the PPS output-- the firmware manual and
> operating manual are thin on details, and mostly just go into telling you
> how to adjust the kalman filter constants for different clock types.
>
> These also appear to support the novatel 'align' mode where you serial
> connect two receivers separated by a short baseline and get really accurate
> absolute headings; I'm planning on trying that that but haven't set it up
> yet.
>
> Looks like uber (last position was ubers offices in denver) had a fleet of
> these things. The couple I got run great, including the IMU, the antennas
> obviously spent a long time outside, but work fine. The cable they come
> with is weird, but I had no problem chopping one end off and figuring out
> the pinout (see bottom).
>
> The novatel OEM6 is well supported by rtklib and I was able to get
> post-processed positions very easily.
>
> Seller takes best offers a fair amount below the $649 asking price.
> Looks like they may have another 30 or so of them.
>
> May be useful for doing time transfer especially with the clock input.
> Just using it to get nice dual band observations to precisely survey an
> antenna location for a traditional GPSDO may improve GPSDO performance by a
> fair amount.
>
> Here is the signals and wire colors on the cables mine came with.
> YMMV, I'd suggest not blindly trusting that colors match on other
> units.These cables don't plumb out many of the signals from the
> module (in particular, they don't carrying COM2, which is why I haven't
> tried multi-receiver headings yet, since I'd need to figure out how to talk
> to it over USB if com1 is in use for that), I'm unsure if they're wired
> through the to external connector.
>
> 01 white  power return (-)
> 02 brown  9-18 VDC power input (+)
> 03 yellowCOM1 RS232 TX
> 05 pink   COM1 RS232 RX
> 09 green  COM1 GND
> 10 black  USB D+
> 11 purple USB D-
> 12 yellow 

Re: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

[J. L. Trantham]

Any idea what they are selling for at this time?

I see that some sold for the BIN price of $349.99 up until June 20.  After 
that, 'Offer Accepted' occurred up through October 5, with a BIN price now of 
$649.99, all plus $40 shipping.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory Maxwell
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 2:17 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Novatel Dual frequency GNSS receivers on ebay

There is an ebay listing for "Novatel GPS-702-GG with SPAN-CPT Single Enclosure 
GNSS/INS Receiver + Cable" with a fairly large number available.

This is a Novatel OEM628 dual frequency receiver (supports GPS, Glonass, SBAS, 
apparently including L1C and L2C), plus a three fiber ring gyros (with bias 
performance that blows away any mems gyro I've ever used) and an 3-axis mems 
acceletrometer in an aluminum case, plus a decent dual frequency antenna.  This 
is a generation-ish old kit.
The industrial casing conspires to make it look somewhat less modern than it 
actually is.

The receivers have external clock input (though not plumbed to the outside of 
the case) which appears to work though I didn't try much with it yet. Mine came 
with 2013-ish firmware but easily upgraded to current (2016) firmware. There is 
a windows based firmware update tool which talks to it over serial and is very 
straight forward (The firmware update OEM6631.zip can be found via google).

You can communicate with them over serial in ascii, there is extensive firmware 
documentation that goes over every command 
https://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Manuals/om-2129.pdf  some of which 
are specific to other modules. There is also a separate manual for the inertial 
navigation specific features (NovAtel SPAN-CPT Users manual.pdf)

The external clock should allow you to hang it off a more stable oscillator 
which will improve the stability of the GNSS results, and _I presume_ improve 
the quality of the PPS output-- the firmware manual and operating manual are 
thin on details, and mostly just go into telling you how to adjust the kalman 
filter constants for different clock types.

These also appear to support the novatel 'align' mode where you serial connect 
two receivers separated by a short baseline and get really accurate absolute 
headings; I'm planning on trying that that but haven't set it up yet.

Looks like uber (last position was ubers offices in denver) had a fleet of 
these things. The couple I got run great, including the IMU, the antennas 
obviously spent a long time outside, but work fine. The cable they come with is 
weird, but I had no problem chopping one end off and figuring out the pinout 
(see bottom).

The novatel OEM6 is well supported by rtklib and I was able to get 
post-processed positions very easily.

Seller takes best offers a fair amount below the $649 asking price.
Looks like they may have another 30 or so of them.

May be useful for doing time transfer especially with the clock input.
Just using it to get nice dual band observations to precisely survey an antenna 
location for a traditional GPSDO may improve GPSDO performance by a fair amount.

Here is the signals and wire colors on the cables mine came with.
YMMV, I'd suggest not blindly trusting that colors match on other
units.These cables don't plumb out many of the signals from the
module (in particular, they don't carrying COM2, which is why I haven't tried 
multi-receiver headings yet, since I'd need to figure out how to talk to it 
over USB if com1 is in use for that), I'm unsure if they're wired through the 
to external connector.

01 white  power return (-)
02 brown  9-18 VDC power input (+)
03 yellowCOM1 RS232 TX
05 pink   COM1 RS232 RX
09 green  COM1 GND
10 black  USB D+
11 purple USB D-
12 yellow brnstp  USB GND
15 redODO SIGA
16 blue   ODO SIGA-inv
29 grey pinkstp   PPS (high resistance? 80 ohm)
30 whitw grnstp   Event1
31 red blustp signal ground
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