Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Hal Murray]

aph...@comcast.net said:
> Here is a powerpoint presentation arguing for e-loran:
> https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2009-05/doherty.pdf 

Thanks.

eLoran meets needs of all identified critical applications -- and others
 -- 10-20 meter navigation accuracy for harbor entrance
 -- 0.3 mile required navigation performance (RNP 0.3) & aviation integrity
 -- Stratum 1 for precise frequency users & 50 ns time accuracy

Lots more info there.  It wasn't expensive.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Bob Martin]

Hi,

  This is so not my area of interest but I did come across the 
following quote from the link listed below.


"A backup system is also a possible element. The British have 
demonstrated that eLoran can deliver time with 50 nanoseconds 
accuracy or better “pretty much anywhere you want to,” said Dana 
Goward, president of the Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation."


http://insidegnss.com/broad-effort-underway-on-assured-accurate-time-for-critical-infrastructure/

I'm sure someone will identify some hidden "but" in the above claim.

 I designed the timing hardware for the Loran upgrade well over 10 
years ago and haven't thought about it until now. It is fascinating 
to me that it is still alive and twitching even after it was killed off.


  It is also interesting to see that the Time-Nut concern about GPS
vulnerability is shared by many organizations and governments.

Best,


Bob Martin



On 9/6/2018 6:04 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that 
the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world 
has moved *way*
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver.

Bob


On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it 
was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want 
a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS.Shutting 
down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions 
annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS,  repeatability was 
much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would 
probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.



On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. 
Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed 
GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time 
wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three 
states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything 
did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
Nuts topic.

Bob


On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system 
the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
unavailable as well.





On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:


Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John


ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230


--
J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 


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Re: [time-nuts] wwvb antenna transmission Well harder then I might think.

[paul swed]

Alex
Funny you bring up the loop antenna. Thats definitely one of the answers I
ran across. Though I was trying to avoid the wire loop.
But that said actually what I need to drive can be quite a small loop so
maybe the right answer.
Along those lines I need to look at the driving Z. Sort of thinking 600
ohms may be useful and shielded pair to carry the rf to the loop. It
doesn't have to be a 50 ohm system at 60 KHz.
Thanks
Paul

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:43 PM, Alex Pummer  wrote:

> by making a loop around the territory, on which you would like to receive
> the signal, inside of that loop you will have a very decent reception
> without using to high transmit power  a 100' x 200' area could be covered
> with 100mW,  since the wave length of the used low frequencies is multiple
> of the length of the loop length , therefore the current in the loop is
> constant along the loop.  The polarization will be changed, the magnetic
> component will be vertical -- the  original wwb field had horizontal
> magnetic, therefor the ferrite loop stick  of the clock -- which is now
> horizontal -- shall be turned vertical. The described loop will not provide
> any substantial field outside the loop, and it will not interfere with the
> original wwb  horizontal magnetic component transmission. The field outside
> of the loop diminishes very fast therefore it does not constitutes any
> problem with the surrounding area. I designed signal transmission system,
> which is working for the last thirty something years.
>
> 73
>
> Alexander Pummer
>
>
>
>
> On 9/6/2018 6:05 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> You really don't want to be building an antenna that radiates energy,
>> which
>> is a far-field
>> concept.  In your case, at 30 ft range, you're so far inside the near
>> field
>> that all the
>> antenna articles in the world won't help, since they address radiating
>> into
>> the far field.
>> That's what WWVB needs to do, but not you.  I think what you want to do is
>> use a loop
>> that is no larger than your house, preferably smaller, and push enough
>> power into it
>> to achieve your range goal (but not any further).
>>
>> Dana
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:21 PM paul swed  wrote:
>>
>> Working on the wwvb simulator and it works really well. On to the last
>>> piece. Transmission over maybe 30 ft.
>>> Ever notice everyone that makes a simulator has the clock on top?
>>> Well thats because its pretty hard to get a 60 KHz signal actually out.
>>> Even though I know loopsticks are not great transmit antennas that was
>>> the
>>> first attempt. Hey what they say is true, Bad.
>>> Next will be the loose wire over the distance. More likely a spare phone
>>> wire pair that runs all over the house.
>>> Just some humor.
>>> I have found a ton of online articles on vlf antennas and such. Heck
>>> seems
>>> like its time to read them.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] wwvb antenna transmission Well harder then I might think.

[Alex Pummer]

by making a loop around the territory, on which you would like to 
receive the signal, inside of that loop you will have a very decent 
reception without using to high transmit power  a 100' x 200' area could 
be covered with 100mW,  since the wave length of the used low 
frequencies is multiple of the length of the loop length , therefore the 
current in the loop is constant along the loop.  The polarization will 
be changed, the magnetic component will be vertical -- the  original wwb 
field had horizontal magnetic, therefor the ferrite loop stick  of the 
clock -- which is now horizontal -- shall be turned vertical. The 
described loop will not provide any substantial field outside the loop, 
and it will not interfere with the original wwb  horizontal magnetic 
component transmission. The field outside of the loop diminishes very 
fast therefore it does not constitutes any problem with the surrounding 
area. I designed signal transmission system, which is working for the 
last thirty something years.


73

Alexander Pummer



On 9/6/2018 6:05 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote:

Paul,

You really don't want to be building an antenna that radiates energy, which
is a far-field
concept.  In your case, at 30 ft range, you're so far inside the near field
that all the
antenna articles in the world won't help, since they address radiating into
the far field.
That's what WWVB needs to do, but not you.  I think what you want to do is
use a loop
that is no larger than your house, preferably smaller, and push enough
power into it
to achieve your range goal (but not any further).

Dana


On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:21 PM paul swed  wrote:


Working on the wwvb simulator and it works really well. On to the last
piece. Transmission over maybe 30 ft.
Ever notice everyone that makes a simulator has the clock on top?
Well thats because its pretty hard to get a 60 KHz signal actually out.
Even though I know loopsticks are not great transmit antennas that was the
first attempt. Hey what they say is true, Bad.
Next will be the loose wire over the distance. More likely a spare phone
wire pair that runs all over the house.
Just some humor.
I have found a ton of online articles on vlf antennas and such. Heck seems
like its time to read them.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] wwvb antenna transmission Well harder then I might think.

[Dana Whitlow]

Paul,

You really don't want to be building an antenna that radiates energy, which
is a far-field
concept.  In your case, at 30 ft range, you're so far inside the near field
that all the
antenna articles in the world won't help, since they address radiating into
the far field.
That's what WWVB needs to do, but not you.  I think what you want to do is
use a loop
that is no larger than your house, preferably smaller, and push enough
power into it
to achieve your range goal (but not any further).

Dana


On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:21 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Working on the wwvb simulator and it works really well. On to the last
> piece. Transmission over maybe 30 ft.
> Ever notice everyone that makes a simulator has the clock on top?
> Well thats because its pretty hard to get a 60 KHz signal actually out.
> Even though I know loopsticks are not great transmit antennas that was the
> first attempt. Hey what they say is true, Bad.
> Next will be the loose wire over the distance. More likely a spare phone
> wire pair that runs all over the house.
> Just some humor.
> I have found a ton of online articles on vlf antennas and such. Heck seems
> like its time to read them.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Scott McGrath]

As to eLORAN,  you can deny positioning but maintain timing service simply by 
modifying the GRI and since eLORAN is software based thats not a difficult 
change.

Navigation receivers go into fail but timing receivers only need ONE station.   
As the users of SRS700’s and Austrons do when Wildwood is active.

With GNSS its a hell of a lot harder and without SA your only option is to turn 
off all the C/A signals hence denying civillian use of GNSS

I’m pretty sure if a non-state actor was doing weaponized drone attacks with 
GPS for guidance,  GPS for civilian use would be shut down in a NY minute .

Remember govt users would not be affected as they have access to the PPS and 
the ‘word of the day’ to make it active.

You dont need conspiracies to think of conditions where GPS would be shut down 
for long periods of time and where reasonable people would agree with the 
shutdown.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:44 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:

Gee,  thats strange especially for those of us who ran the Austron comparitors 
to check our local standards against the LORSTA’s



On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:04 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that 
the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world 
has moved *way*
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver. 

Bob

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy 
> it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not 
> want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS.
> Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs 
> billions annually.
> 
> Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS,  repeatability 
> was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.
> 
> Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.
> 
> Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would 
> probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective 
> availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a 
> properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best 
> stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. 
> 
> A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
> system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in 
> three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and 
> everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. 
> 
> I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
> based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
> factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. 
> 
> =
> 
> Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
> doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
> Nuts topic.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
>> 
>> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY 
>> system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.  
>> 
>> Leaving civilian users with nothing, 
>> 
>> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
>> unavailable as well.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Folks:
>> 
>> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
>> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” 
>> at
>> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
>> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!
>> 
>> :John
>> 
>>> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
>>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
>>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
>>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
>>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230
>> 
>> --
>> J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
>> +1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
>> +1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
>> jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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>> 
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>> 

Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Scott McGrath]

Gee,  thats strange especially for those of us who ran the Austron comparitors 
to check our local standards against the LORSTA’s



On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:04 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that 
the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world 
has moved *way*
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver. 

Bob

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy 
> it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not 
> want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS.
> Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs 
> billions annually.
> 
> Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS,  repeatability 
> was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.
> 
> Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.
> 
> Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would 
> probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective 
> availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a 
> properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best 
> stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. 
> 
> A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
> system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in 
> three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and 
> everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. 
> 
> I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
> based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
> factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. 
> 
> =
> 
> Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
> doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
> Nuts topic.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
>> 
>> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY 
>> system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.  
>> 
>> Leaving civilian users with nothing, 
>> 
>> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
>> unavailable as well.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Folks:
>> 
>> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
>> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” 
>> at
>> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
>> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!
>> 
>> :John
>> 
>>> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
>>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
>>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
>>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
>>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230
>> 
>> --
>> J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
>> +1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
>> +1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
>> jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt Start Up RS-232 Communications Glitch

[Didier Juges]

Interestingly, Gregory just posted about his success with some FTDI
USB/RS-232 cables that are the real thing in a separate thread.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:03 PM Didier Juges  wrote:

> Not sure what you refer to. I have made a large number of
> microcontroller-based Thunderbolt monitor kits and they do not have that
> issue.
> In any event, a problem like this cannot be the fault of the Thunderbolt,
> all it does is send data. It's up to the receiver to process it, including
> properly picking up data mid-stream.
>
> As Dave pointed out, if you are using USB-serial adapters and a PC, all
> bets are off. There are many substandard devices in that category.
> My personal preference is for the Silabs CP210x series and the Chinese
> CH340/341. Stay away from the Prolific and FTDI parts unless you know
> exactly what you are getting. They have been extensively cloned with
> extremely poor quality parts and the legitimate vendors have mangled up
> their drivers in order to try and prevent the clones from working with
> those (and in some cases intentionally trying to damage the device), the
> net result being a total mess of unreliable parts and software.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 2:56 PM skipp via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
>> Re: Trimble Thunderbolt Start Up RS-232 Communications Glitch
>>
>> Hello to the Group,
>>
>> Would anyone be able to help provide a bit of insight
>> or experience in dealing with what I call the an initial
>> Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDO RS-232 communications glitch
>> (during initial power on/up).
>>
>> I've noticed some of the programs (Lady Heather) and
>> external status monitor devices (my own), sometimes
>> seem to initially stutter, freeze or even lock up if
>> the RS-232 cable connection is made (as one would expect
>> to be normal).
>>
>> Establishing a working initial power on/up, serial
>> port monitor function can require a physical disconnect
>> from the GPSDO. Once everything is on, the physical RS-232
>> connection can be made and monitor functions operate
>> well going forward.
>>
>> Would there be a hardware or software "serial comm
>> preamble" or power-on sequence, best order of
>> operation?  The physical disconnect RS-232 comm
>> reset is more than casually inconvenient.
>>
>> Thank you in advance for your replies
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Skipp
>>
>> skipp025 at jah who dot calm.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that 
the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world 
has moved *way*
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver. 

Bob

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy 
> it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not 
> want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS.
> Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs 
> billions annually.
> 
> Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS,  repeatability 
> was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.
> 
> Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.
> 
> Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would 
> probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective 
> availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a 
> properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best 
> stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. 
> 
> A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
> system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in 
> three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and 
> everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. 
> 
> I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
> based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
> factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. 
> 
> =
> 
> Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
> doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
> Nuts topic.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
>> 
>> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY 
>> system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.  
>> 
>> Leaving civilian users with nothing, 
>> 
>> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
>> unavailable as well.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Folks:
>> 
>> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
>> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” 
>> at
>> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
>> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!
>> 
>> :John
>> 
>>> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
>>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
>>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
>>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
>>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230
>> 
>> --
>> J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
>> +1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
>> +1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
>> jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt Start Up RS-232 Communications Glitch

[Didier Juges]

Not sure what you refer to. I have made a large number of
microcontroller-based Thunderbolt monitor kits and they do not have that
issue.
In any event, a problem like this cannot be the fault of the Thunderbolt,
all it does is send data. It's up to the receiver to process it, including
properly picking up data mid-stream.

As Dave pointed out, if you are using USB-serial adapters and a PC, all
bets are off. There are many substandard devices in that category.
My personal preference is for the Silabs CP210x series and the Chinese
CH340/341. Stay away from the Prolific and FTDI parts unless you know
exactly what you are getting. They have been extensively cloned with
extremely poor quality parts and the legitimate vendors have mangled up
their drivers in order to try and prevent the clones from working with
those (and in some cases intentionally trying to damage the device), the
net result being a total mess of unreliable parts and software.


On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 2:56 PM skipp via time-nuts 
wrote:

> Re: Trimble Thunderbolt Start Up RS-232 Communications Glitch
>
> Hello to the Group,
>
> Would anyone be able to help provide a bit of insight
> or experience in dealing with what I call the an initial
> Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDO RS-232 communications glitch
> (during initial power on/up).
>
> I've noticed some of the programs (Lady Heather) and
> external status monitor devices (my own), sometimes
> seem to initially stutter, freeze or even lock up if
> the RS-232 cable connection is made (as one would expect
> to be normal).
>
> Establishing a working initial power on/up, serial
> port monitor function can require a physical disconnect
> from the GPSDO. Once everything is on, the physical RS-232
> connection can be made and monitor functions operate
> well going forward.
>
> Would there be a hardware or software "serial comm
> preamble" or power-on sequence, best order of
> operation?  The physical disconnect RS-232 comm
> reset is more than casually inconvenient.
>
> Thank you in advance for your replies
>
> Cheers,
>
> Skipp
>
> skipp025 at jah who dot calm.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Bob Martin]

GPS.gov: Selective Availability
https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/
Sep 23, 2016 - The United States has no intent to ever use Selective 
Availability again. In September 2007, the U.S. government announced 
its decision to procure the future generation of GPS satellites, 
known as GPS III, without the SA feature.


Navstar: GPS Satellite Network - Space.com
https://www.space.com › Science & Astronomy
Apr 26, 2018 - GPS III's new L1C civil signal also will make it the 
first GPS satellite ... With selective availability not included on 
the latest GPS satellites, the ...


Hopefully this won't devolve into a discussion about whether one can 
trust the US Government.


Bob Martin

On 9/6/2018 3:58 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

I read that the latest GPS sats don't even have the ability to implement 
selective availability...  seems a dubious claim to me, though.

-


Indeed it might get turned back on again.

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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Bob Martin]

I'm sure this has been discussed many times here.

E-Loran - I designed the timing hardware that controlled the 
transmitters for that upgrade while I was at Timing Solutions.


As I remember it, it was funded by the FAA to be a backup for GPS. 
The FAA planned to make more use of GPS in the future (distant 
future given the speed at which the FAA moves).


I'm not sure the Coast Guard was excited about the responsibility
of running LORAN.

Here is a powerpoint presentation arguing for e-loran:

https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2009-05/doherty.pdf

Bob Martin

On 9/6/2018 4:35 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it 
was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want 
a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS.Shutting 
down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions 
annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS,  repeatability was 
much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would 
probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.



On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. 
Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed 
GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time 
wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three 
states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything 
did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
Nuts topic.

Bob


On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system 
the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
unavailable as well.





On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:


Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John


ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230


--
J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 


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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[David I. Emery]

On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 06:35:23PM -0400, Scott McGrath wrote:
> Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy 
> it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not 
> want a much more inexpensive to operate system ???competing??? with GPS.
> Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs 
> billions annually.

> Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

FWLIW, my brother in law was the USCG admiral who was CFO (and
chief bean counter) of the USCG when that was going down.  I tried, but
ran into the "it's classified" stuff...  I think they had a rationale
other than just cost.   There is an argument that denying GPS to
terrorists in crisis situations is much easier than denying E-Loran... 

He is not an empty suit BTW, though a helo pilot (and MBA) by
training and not a time nut or engineer.   Now long out of the USCG and
executive VP of a Cruise line.


-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."


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[time-nuts] wwvb antenna transmission Well harder then I might think.

[paul swed]

Working on the wwvb simulator and it works really well. On to the last
piece. Transmission over maybe 30 ft.
Ever notice everyone that makes a simulator has the clock on top?
Well thats because its pretty hard to get a 60 KHz signal actually out.
Even though I know loopsticks are not great transmit antennas that was the
first attempt. Hey what they say is true, Bad.
Next will be the loose wire over the distance. More likely a spare phone
wire pair that runs all over the house.
Just some humor.
I have found a ton of online articles on vlf antennas and such. Heck seems
like its time to read them.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Scott McGrath]

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it 
was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want 
a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS.Shutting 
down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions 
annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS,  repeatability was 
much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would 
probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.



On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. 
Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed 
GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time 
wise, it still works “good enough”. 

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three 
states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything 
did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. 

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. 

=

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
Nuts topic.

Bob

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY 
> system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.  
> 
> Leaving civilian users with nothing, 
> 
> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
> unavailable as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Folks:
> 
> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!
> 
> :John
> 
>> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230
> 
> --
> J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
> +1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
> +1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
> jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Mark Sims]

I read that the latest GPS sats don't even have the ability to implement 
selective availability...  seems a dubious claim to me, though.

-

> Indeed it might get turned back on again.
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. 
Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed 
GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time 
wise, it still works “good enough”. 

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based 
system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three 
states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything 
did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. 

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite 
based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a 
factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. 

=

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the 
doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time 
Nuts topic.

Bob

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY 
> system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.  
> 
> Leaving civilian users with nothing, 
> 
>  If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
> unavailable as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Folks:
> 
> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!
> 
> :John
> 
>> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230
> 
> --
> J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
> +1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
> +1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
> jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] Samsung GPSDO : Chinese surplus

[Mark Sims]

These are Samsung's version of the "UCCM" series of GPSDOs.   Lady Heather now 
works with them.   I had to tweak the code to handle their funky/erratic 
end-of-line sequences... various versions of CR/LF, LF, LF/CR.   Their STATUS 
screen and some message responses are also a bit different.  They do tell you 
the antenna current.
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Signal Generator

[Andy Backus]

Instead of relying on the PPS to time the start of the simulated WWVB 
transmissions, I opted instead to rely on the Arduino timing functions and then 
refresh the data and the start every five minutes.  No WWVB clocks use the 
signal continuously; generally they all copy the signal once a day.


Also -- when the GlobalTop loses a fix it still puts out the RMC sentence, just 
without the lat and lon data.  And the PPS immediately stops.  I designed the 
parsing scheme to account for that.  How long that reporting would continue I 
don't know.


Andy Backus



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Wayne Holder 

Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 5:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Signal Generator

I was able to sort out my issue with the DST bits with the help of the
code Andy Backus recently published.  I believe my code should now be ready
for anyone who's curious to try out.  Complete details are available on the
following page:

  https://sites.google.com/site/wayneholder/controlling-time-2


This new code is a bit simpler than the ATTiny85-based code I published
before, as I've eliminated the use of interrupts and now use the GPS
module's PPS signal to control bit timing and simple calls to the millis()
function to control the timing of the bit modulation.  I still recommend
swapping the 16 MHz crystal for a 15.36 MHz one, but you should be able to
run the code on any ATMega328-based Arduino using a 16 MHz clock, although
with reduced range from the antenna to the clock.

Wayne

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:48 AM Mark Sims  wrote:

> If your receiver has it the $GPZDA  can be a better message to use.   They
> usually have better seconds resolution and some receivers give them some
> special love as to when they come out.  But, depending upon your code, this
> may not matter.  Also check to see if your chosen time message comes out
> before or after the 1PPS.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 170, Issue 10

[Dave B via time-nuts]

Sadly, you'll need more than just a lump of Ferrite to stop 60kHz
escaping to the street via the power cables..

That, and you'll probably also find the home power circuit seriously
polluted anyway around 60kHz, as a result of all the "other stuff" you
have that uses small SMPS's, with little filtering, and very unstable
working frequencies.

Best perhaps to run a horizontal loop around the eve's of the house, and
feed that with 60kHz at low level.  But, I have no idea of whatever
legislation you might bust doing that, depending on where you live.

There are other 60kHz time signals out there already, but it's unlikely
we in the UK will be bothered by you in the US doing local domestic time
signal tricks.

73.

Dave B. (G8KBV)


On 06/09/18 00:12, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote:
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Translation/Simulation from GPS Data
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Could you couple the 60kHz signal into the power line ?
> It should conveniently pass around most of the house and some ferrite rings
> on the incoming mains minimise what goes outside your premises.

-- 
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source 
software.
::

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Signal Generator

[Wayne Holder]

I was able to sort out my issue with the DST bits with the help of the
code Andy Backus recently published.  I believe my code should now be ready
for anyone who's curious to try out.  Complete details are available on the
following page:

  https://sites.google.com/site/wayneholder/controlling-time-2

This new code is a bit simpler than the ATTiny85-based code I published
before, as I've eliminated the use of interrupts and now use the GPS
module's PPS signal to control bit timing and simple calls to the millis()
function to control the timing of the bit modulation.  I still recommend
swapping the 16 MHz crystal for a 15.36 MHz one, but you should be able to
run the code on any ATMega328-based Arduino using a 16 MHz clock, although
with reduced range from the antenna to the clock.

Wayne

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:48 AM Mark Sims  wrote:

> If your receiver has it the $GPZDA  can be a better message to use.   They
> usually have better seconds resolution and some receivers give them some
> special love as to when they come out.  But, depending upon your code, this
> may not matter.  Also check to see if your chosen time message comes out
> before or after the 1PPS.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[David Van Horn]

We just put up another GPS antenna for our backup thunderbolt, and now IT is 
blaming that for why our wifi is sluggish.
And it happens whether the new antenna is even connected!

https://www.kb6nu.com/theyll-do-it-every-time/


I should have known.. (KC6ETE here)
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Scott McGrath]

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system 
the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.  

 Leaving civilian users with nothing, 

  If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be 
unavailable as well.





On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan  wrote:


Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 


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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, 18:35 John Sloan,  wrote:

> Folks:
>
>
>
> Yesterday (2018-09-03) afternoon (about 22:00UTC, 16:00MDT) I noticed one
> of my three home-made GPS-disciplined NTP servers had lost its GPS lock.
> After some forensics on my part, this (2018-09-04) morning (about 16:00UTC,
> 10:00MDT) I replaced the amplified antenna, and the device reacquired its
> lock. I figured it was just an antenna failures; this is an amplified
> filtered antenna so it has active electronics.
>
> Then just an hour or so later, I noticed one of my commercial
> GPS-disciplined NTP servers (TimeMachines) had lost the GPS 1PPS timing
> signal, but indicated it still had GPS lock. (I
>
> No clue what's going on in my suburb near Golden Colorado. But I’m a
> little freaked out. Trying to figure out which rule, [1] It’s something
> stupid I’ve done, or [2] I am not unique, to apply.
>
> :John


I know someone else who had a similar problem. It turned out to be a fault
in one of the active antennas which went into self-oscillation,  which
jammed the other GPS receivers.



Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[John Sloan]

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

> ZDV   DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 45N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 1FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 


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