Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 01.10.2018 um 03:01 schrieb Arthur Dent:

Oops, I meant divide by 5 to get 2 followed by 8x NB3N511 work?
___


That should work, also for the 12 MHz case with 6x instead of 8x.

But it still needs a second divider chip like the solution I built
this afternoon. Somewhere, there must exist a single chip SO-8 solution.

:-)

cheers, Gerhard



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[time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Arthur Dent]

Oops, I meant divide by 5 to get 2 followed by 8x NB3N511 work?
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[paul swed]

Arthur that is a very attractive answer. I had never heard of the chip
before surely looks simple enough.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 8:45 PM Arthur Dent 
wrote:

> Would a divide by 2 followed by a NB3N511 work?
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[time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Arthur Dent]

Would a divide by 2 followed by a NB3N511 work?
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

There is clearly enough clock chips today that would fit the bill and
probably provide good enough jitter for you to operate it safely.
Look at products like this:
https://www.silabs.com/products/timing/clocks/general-purpose-clock-generators

There is more of them as you look around.

Then, also consider classic mixer-approach, which may be workable or not
for you:

Square the 10 MHz, feed into a tuned tank for 30 MHz, amplify and
square, divide by 5, mix produced 6 MHz with 10 MHz and amplify into a
tuned tank at 16 MHz, buffer and square as needed for output.

However, for the application at hand I would look at the modern clock
generator chips that has come a long way. Their relatively low noise is
due to their GHz CMOS oscillators and relatively quiet dividers. The
setup gives a relatively good flexibility. Fractional divisors has come
a long way to solve more problems. You get more than the real-estate of
one of the surface mounted DBM mixers would provide you. It's when you
want to go to very low noise that you would consider another approach.

Then again, I would enjoy the challenge of the mixer approach. So choose
method based on what is most rewarding, but for simplicity the clock
chips seems like a good go, so there it is more about locating a cheap
board with the right chip on it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 9/30/18 5:57 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 
> MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be 
> sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is 
> for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input 
> is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.
> 
> Thanks,
> /tvb
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Bruce Griffiths]

A low phase noise method is to use a dual conjugate regenerative divider with 
6MHz and 16Mhz bandpass filters in the feedback loop to produce 16Mhz output.

For 12MHz output use 2MHz and 12MHz bandpass filters in the feedback loop. 

Bruce
> On 01 October 2018 at 09:05 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there are 
> a lot 
> of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio 
> frequency
> conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock 
> board was
> one way to get it all put together. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> > On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali:
> > 
> >> The simplest way I can think of is the following:
> >> Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz.
> >> Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the
> >> pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer
> >> the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this
> >> will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band.
> >> By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can
> >> get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging.
> >> 
> >> For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator
> >> to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal
> >> and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does).
> >> Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter
> >> for the fine measurement.
> >> 
> >> Same works equally well for 12MHz.
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design.
> > 
> > There is a simpler way.  IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND
> > 
> > Solder time less than 10 minutes.
> > I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V
> > version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, too.
> > The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. 
> > open)
> > 
> > Divide by 10 is left as an exercise.
> > 
> > regards,
> > Gerhard
> > 
> > (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.)
> > 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If (as originally specified) noise and jitter are not a big deal - there are a 
lot 
of chips out there like the ICS570. They are designed to do weird ratio 
frequency
conversions so 10 to 12 or 10 to 16 are trivial for them. The Clockblock board 
was
one way to get it all put together. 

Bob

> On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 30.09.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Attila Kinali:
> 
>> The simplest way I can think of is the following:
>> Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz.
>> Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the
>> pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer
>> the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this
>> will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band.
>> By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can
>> get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging.
>> 
>> For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator
>> to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal
>> and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does).
>> Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter
>> for the fine measurement.
>> 
>> Same works equally well for 12MHz.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design.
> 
> There is a simpler way.  IDT ICS570. Digikey 800-1073-5-ND
> 
> Solder time less than 10 minutes.
> I had the 3V3-Version in the parts drawers, officially it takes the 5V
> version to generate the 160 MHz, but the 3V3 version happened to work, too.
> The difference between 120 and 160 MHz is just a GND wire on pin 6 (vs. open)
> 
> Divide by 10 is left as an exercise.
> 
> regards,
> Gerhard
> 
> (But then, some like to build and tune multiplier chains and mixers.)
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[ed breya]

I agree with Alex - injection-locking would be the simplest of all, if 
the slight correction signal added every 16 cycles is acceptable.


Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Attila Kinali]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 19:05:16 +0200
Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:

> Wow. That's truly a Rube Goldberg design.

You are right, one can do it simpler, in a single chip:

Take a uC (STM32F030 comes to mind), use its PLL, VCO and clock output
to do the heavy lifting. No external components (beside a few capacitors)
required.

As the CPU itself and all the peripherals are not used, one can do
other shenanigans with them, like playing the imperial march on
a floppy drive.

Attila Kinali

-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Attila Kinali]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:57:14 -0700
"Tom Van Baak"  wrote:

> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of
> 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need
> to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy.
> This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO.
> 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.


The simplest way I can think of is the following:
Use a 74LV8154 to divide the 10MHz down to 152.587890625Hz.
Use the capture timer unit of the uC to measure the phase of the
pulse. Use any kind of DAC (internal, external, PWM,...) to steer
the 16MHz VCO. Depending on how fast the timer unit runs, this
will give you something in the order of 10-200ns dead-band.
By choosing the right frequency for the timer unit, one can
get it to "dither" a bit and then use averaging.

For lower jitter, use one half of a Nutt interpolator
to get the timing difference between the 152Hz signal
and the 16MHz (ie similar to what the SRS FS740 does).
Use something akin Nick Sayer's time-to-amplitude converter 
for the fine measurement.

Same works equally well for 12MHz.

Attila Kinali
-- 
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Mike Feher]

Almost same answer as I gave Tom. Double to 20, divide by 10, and then mix
the 2 with the original 10, You could also just divide by 5 and then mix
that 2 with the original 10. Again, filtering required. 73 - Mike 

 

Mike B. Feher, N4FS

89 Arnold Blvd.

Howell NJ 07731

848-245-9115

 

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Pete
Lancashire
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:45 AM
To: Tom Van Baak ; Discussion of precise time and
frequency measurement 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

 

Same question 10 to 12:-)

 

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 8:58 PM Tom Van Baak < 
t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:

 

> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out 

> of

> 1Almost 0 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't 

> need to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count
accuracy.

> This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz 

> Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.

> 

> Thanks,

> /tvb

> 

> 

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 30.09.2018 um 15:44 schrieb Pete Lancashire:

Same question 10 to 12:-)




Same Answer.

Select pins = (1, 1, 0) for 12 instead of (1, 1, 1) for 16.

\Gerhard



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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[John Ackermann. N8UR]

The clockblock could do that, or probably any of the newer synth chips.  Phase 
noise and jitter are lousy of course.

On Sep 29, 2018, 11:58 PM, at 11:58 PM, Tom Van Baak  
wrote:
>What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out
>of 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't
>need to be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count
>accuracy. This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz
>Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v
>CMOS.
>
>Thanks,
>/tvb
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Ingrid clicked through the "you might find that useful too" - list

and stumbled across this:

< 
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/adafruit-industries-llc/2045/1528-1206-ND/5353666 
   >


\Gerhard

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 30.09.2018 um 06:15 schrieb Hal Murray:

What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10
MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be
sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is
for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input
is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.

There should be a PLL chip that includes the M and N dividers, but I'm not
familiar with that area.


Use this for f * 16:

< 
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/on-semiconductor/NB3N3020DTG/NB3N3020DTGOS-ND/2003319 
  >


and a 74LVC for / 10.

The NB3N3020 could do *1.6 directly, but only for input frequency > 25 MHz.

regards,
Gerhard

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Kasper Pedersen]

On 09/30/2018 05:57 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 
> MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be 
> sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is 
> for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input 
> is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.
> 
> Thanks,
> /tvb

When I have needed this, it has been for microcontrollers. I have let
the microcontroller do the locking, with 10MHz applied directly to an
input pin:

I run a reasonably fast* interrupt. Once inside the interrupt, I read
the current timer value, and read the port 8 times into registers.

This gives me 8 samples spaced 45 degrees apart on the 10MHz input,
which are then converted to a 8-bit field.

That 8-bit value is then used in a lookup table, which outputs a phase
value. This is compensated by what was read from the timer (how late we
got into the interrupt).

The phase error is then accumulated, and drives a PWM DAC, connected to
a varactor on the crystal.

It adds 3 external components in total, and for an annoying case like
8/5, it may well wobble 90 degrees.



It started with this Christmas-vacation experiment I never really finished:

https://n1.taur.dk/permanent/synth_v2.pdf



/Kasper Pedersen

*) oscillator_frequency * max_xtal_deviation * 4, typically 16kHz or so.

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[ew via time-nuts]

We use the ICS527 for many applications easy to get 80 or 160 MHz. in non 
critical applications I use an AC14. Have a small board, 14 and ISC only if 
interested have to look for it it is pre relocation. Juerg may also have one. 
Corby uses it in his latest HP5065 tests along with a AD9850 DDS.Bert Kehren
In a message dated 9/30/2018 2:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
michael.c...@sfr.fr writes:

How about an ICS525 or ICS527. IDT’s calculator allows a 0 ppm frequency error. 
You would need a sine-square converter for input.

> Le 30 sept. 2018 à 05:57, Tom Van Baak  a écrit :
> 
> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 
> MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be 
> sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is 
> for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input 
> is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.
> 
> Thanks,
> /tvb
> 
> 
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People have only as much liberty as they have the intelligence to want and the 
courage to take.

Emma Goldman


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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Dana Whitlow]

Tom,

Divide the 10 MHz down to 2 MHz in the usual way, then multiply by 8
with a cascade of three analog freq doublers separated by fairly narrow
bandpass filters.  Caveats:  Would need four filters total along the path
to get rid of unwanted frequency components, gain distributed along
the path to keep the signal level high enough to satisfy the doublers,
and might suffer excessive phase drift due to temperature changes of
the filters (and probably to a lesser extent) the doublers themselves.
You didn't mention phase stability requirements...

Freq doublers based on mixers or on full-wave rectification have the
pleasant property of having *most* of their output power in the proper
harmonic order, but require sinusoidal drives to work.  An unfiltered
digital drive signal won't suffice here.

Dana



On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:58 PM Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of
> 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to
> be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy.
> This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10
> MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Francesco Messineo]

On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 5:58 AM Tom Van Baak  wrote:
>
> What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of 10 
> MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to be 
> sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy. This is 
> for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10 MHz input 
> is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb

I would square the sine (like HP single BJT or double BJT squarers),
divide by 5 with any 74XX290 or xx390, then multiply by two three
times using 74XX86 XORs with one input delayed by two inverters. You
would need to play with the last inverters delay if your
microcontroller needs a symmetric clock

Frank

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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz

[Luca]

Simple 100 kHz ref frequency PLL  (like old cmos series) with 16 MHz VCXO (
very simple 16MHz xtal with varicap arrangement).
All parts in the ordinary spare generic stuff drawer..



Il domenica 30 settembre 2018, Bruce Griffiths 
ha scritto:

> Full wave rectify the sinewave input, extract the 8th Harmonic with a
> passive filter.
> Drive the input of a divide by 5 circuit via a suitable impedance
> converter network.
> Could even use a CMOS 74XX74 flipflop plus a few passive components as the
> divider.
>
> Bruce
>
> > On 30 September 2018 at 16:57 Tom Van Baak  wrote:
> >
> >
> > What's a clever, simple, reliable (pick 2 of 3) way to get 16 MHz out of
> 10 MHz? Low phase noise isn't a big requirement and jitter doesn't need to
> be sub-nanosecond. The main requirement is perfect cycle count accuracy.
> This is for driving a 16 MHz microcontroller from a 10 MHz Rb/Cs/GPSDO. 10
> MHz input is likely sine; 16 MHz output is 3v3 or 5v CMOS.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > /tvb
> >
> >
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