Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Bob via time-nuts]

the killing of one in every ten of a group of people as a punishment for the 
whole group (originally with reference to a mutinous Roman legion).


-Original Message-
From: Richard Solomon via time-nuts 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Cc: Richard Solomon 
Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2020 7:41 am
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

The Ancient Romans had another,
not so nice, definition.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> I'm confused:
>
> I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
> 'decimation'.
>
> One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
> the others without regard to possible aliasing".
>
> The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
> as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".
>
> Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
> be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
> the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dana    K8YUM
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[William H. Fite via time-nuts]

Precisely, Dick!

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020, Richard Solomon via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> The Ancient Romans had another,
> not so nice, definition.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm confused:
> >
> > I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
> > 'decimation'.
> >
> > One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
> > the others without regard to possible aliasing".
> >
> > The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
> > as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".
> >
> > Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
> > be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
> > the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > DanaK8YUM
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
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Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Bob kb8tq via time-nuts]

Hi

There certainly are fundamental SC’s out there. 

SC’s typically have motional resistances above 50 ohms. This usually makes 
transmission 
a better way to look for this or that resonance than impedance. 

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> I had a Morion MV89A that would stop oscillating when Vtune was more than 
> +600 mV.
> 
> So I cut it open to recover at least the crystal, for own experiments.
> 
> Pics are there:
> 
> < 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/
> >
> 
> and then following the right arrow.
> 
> 
> To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it 
> on an
> 
> R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance
> 
> as a 15 dB dip.  There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 
> 90 KHz
> 
> higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
> 
> But I could not see anything at 1 or 1. MHz, so it should be a 
> fundamental crystal?
> 
> Is that common?
> 
> I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder
> 
> station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
> 
> inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance 
> vs. temp.
> 
> I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz 
> bandwidth
> 
> is close to eternal.
> 
> 
> Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with 
> SC-cuts
> 
> than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a 
> board
> 
> for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.
> 
> 
> BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not 
> mean
> 
> that the ZVB needs service.
> 
> 
> cheers, Gerhard
> 
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts]

I had a Morion MV89A that would stop oscillating when Vtune was more 
than +600 mV.


So I cut it open to recover at least the crystal, for own experiments.

Pics are there:

< 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/ 
   >


and then following the right arrow.


To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put 
it on an


R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance

as a 15 dB dip.  There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one 
another 90 KHz


higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.

But I could not see anything at 1 or 1. MHz, so it should be a 
fundamental crystal?


Is that common?

I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder

station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C

inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz 
resonance vs. temp.


I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz 
bandwidth


is close to eternal.


Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger 
with SC-cuts


than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make 
a board


for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.


BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that 
does not mean


that the ZVB needs service.


cheers, Gerhard



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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Dana Whitlow via time-nuts]

Please note that I have little real interest in measuring ADEV.  My
interest lies almost
solely in measuring phase variations of a received signal via some
propagation path,
not in any statistical sense but looking at actual waveforms plotted as
phase versus
time.  I am working towards measurement runs spanning weeks (maybe even
months)
over some specified bandwidth (for example, 0.1 to 10 Hz), so that long
term phase
accumulation due to static frequency error and/or slow frequency drift of
my local
reference versus the incoming signal need not be fatal.  There is concern
if the phase
accumulation gets large enough to threaten loss of numerical precision,
however.
I'm currently working on a program which includes a rather slow AFC loop so
that the
phase accumulation is somewhat bounded.

I am currently doing a 2-stage decimation.  The first stage is by a ratio
of about 4 or 5 to 1,
simply so that I can get the array size down  to the point where an FFT
does not take
forever.  The FFT does the 2nd stage of decimation according to an upper
bandwidth I
specify at run time, and a much smaller IFFT gets me back to the time
domain where I
can do my stuff.  I'm currently stuck with a cheap DSO whose minimum sample
rate is
2 kHz.  I'd prefer to run at a sample rate of ~50 to 100 Hz so I can get
some reasonable
durations.  To this end I'm looking at buying an LGR-5325 from Measurement
Computing,
which should yield all the flexibility I can ever use.  But the price- Ouch!

Dana


On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM Anders Wallin via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Some of the confusion might come from different measurement systems dealing
> with different data, either phase (in seconds), or frequency (fractional).
>
> Sub-sampling works for phase-data, just throw away the in-between samples
> and look at phase samples that are tau-distance apart.
>
> Decimation works for frequency-data, if you collect with 1s gate-time and
> want to look at tau=10s, then bin together 10 samples and create a new
> time-series that is 10-fold shorter, and compute adev from that.
>
> FWIW IIRC all the allantools examples/tests that (successfully) compare
> results against Stable32, using frequency input data, just use simple
> non-overlapping 'boxcar' decimation - nothing more fancy or elaborate.
>
> AW
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:10 PM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > Let's see if I have this correct, then:
> >
> > "Decimation" refers to the two-step procedure (filtering followed by
> > picking every nth sample),   and
> > "Sub-sampling" (or "downsampling") properly refers to taking every nth
> > sample and discarding the rest.
> >
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > And thanks for all the responses.
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM George Watson via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Anders Wallin via time-nuts]

Some of the confusion might come from different measurement systems dealing
with different data, either phase (in seconds), or frequency (fractional).

Sub-sampling works for phase-data, just throw away the in-between samples
and look at phase samples that are tau-distance apart.

Decimation works for frequency-data, if you collect with 1s gate-time and
want to look at tau=10s, then bin together 10 samples and create a new
time-series that is 10-fold shorter, and compute adev from that.

FWIW IIRC all the allantools examples/tests that (successfully) compare
results against Stable32, using frequency input data, just use simple
non-overlapping 'boxcar' decimation - nothing more fancy or elaborate.

AW


On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:10 PM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Let's see if I have this correct, then:
>
> "Decimation" refers to the two-step procedure (filtering followed by
> picking every nth sample),   and
> "Sub-sampling" (or "downsampling") properly refers to taking every nth
> sample and discarding the rest.
>
> Is this correct?
>
> And thanks for all the responses.
>
> Dana
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM George Watson via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Dana Whitlow via time-nuts]

Let's see if I have this correct, then:

"Decimation" refers to the two-step procedure (filtering followed by
picking every nth sample),   and
"Sub-sampling" (or "downsampling") properly refers to taking every nth
sample and discarding the rest.

Is this correct?

And thanks for all the responses.

Dana


On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM George Watson via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

>
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[George Watson via time-nuts]

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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Bob kb8tq via time-nuts]

Hi

If you take a look at how ADEV has been traditionally done for many 
decades, they *do* indeed “decimate without the filter”.  There is no
re-filtering process as you go from 1 to 2 to 10,000 second tau.

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2020, at 10:33 AM, Hal Murray via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard the others without
>> regard to possible aliasing".
> 
>> The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter as
>> appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".
> 
>> Which is it?
> 
> Unless you are doing something tricky, it doesn't make sense to decimate 
> without the filter.
> 
> I'll phrase your two cases differently.  The first is a box that just takes 
> every Nth sample.  Some other box did the filtering.  The second box includes 
> the filter because that is such a common case.  The "box" can be software or 
> hardware.
> 
> -
> 
> Sometimes the aliasing is a feature.  If you start with a 100 MHz signal, run 
> it through a band pass filter, now you can decimate and your signal will get 
> aliased down into baseband.  But that's not aliasing bad stuff on top of your 
> signal.  It's aliasing your signal on top of emptyness.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Richard Solomon via time-nuts]

The Ancient Romans had another,
not so nice, definition.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> I'm confused:
>
> I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
> 'decimation'.
>
> One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
> the others without regard to possible aliasing".
>
> The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
> as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".
>
> Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
> be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
> the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> DanaK8YUM
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Hal Murray via time-nuts]

> One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard the others without
> regard to possible aliasing".

> The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter as
> appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".

> Which is it?

Unless you are doing something tricky, it doesn't make sense to decimate 
without the filter.

I'll phrase your two cases differently.  The first is a box that just takes 
every Nth sample.  Some other box did the filtering.  The second box includes 
the filter because that is such a common case.  The "box" can be software or 
hardware.

-

Sometimes the aliasing is a feature.  If you start with a 100 MHz signal, run 
it through a band pass filter, now you can decimate and your signal will get 
aliased down into baseband.  But that's not aliasing bad stuff on top of your 
signal.  It's aliasing your signal on top of emptyness.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Alex Pummer via time-nuts]

in original -- Latin -- it means;  take every tenth
73
KJ6UHN
 Alex

On 2/25/2020 7:15 AM, Bob kb8tq via time-nuts wrote:

Hi

In the common vernacular “decimation” does indeed mean “just throw the rest 
away”.
You can find papers where that *is* what’s being done with samples and that 
term is
used. Downsample also means “just throw them away”……

Bob


On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:55 AM, Dana Whitlow via time-nuts 
 wrote:

I'm confused:

I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
'decimation'.

One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
the others without regard to possible aliasing".

The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".

Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?

Thanks,

DanaK8YUM
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Bob kb8tq via time-nuts]

Hi

In the common vernacular “decimation” does indeed mean “just throw the rest 
away”. 
You can find papers where that *is* what’s being done with samples and that 
term is 
used. Downsample also means “just throw them away”……

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:55 AM, Dana Whitlow via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm confused:
> 
> I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
> 'decimation'.
> 
> One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
> the others without regard to possible aliasing".
> 
> The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
> as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".
> 
> Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
> be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
> the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> DanaK8YUM
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Magnus Danielson via time-nuts]

Hi Dana,

On 2020-02-25 15:55, Dana Whitlow via time-nuts wrote:
> I'm confused:
>
> I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
> 'decimation'.
>
> One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
> the others without regard to possible aliasing".
This is sub-sampling. It performs a very crude decimation, full with
aliasing.
> The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
> as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".

This is what every day decimation is these days.

>
> Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
> be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
> the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?

Luckily there is different terms for the two different processes to use.

Cheers,
Magnus


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[time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[Dana Whitlow via time-nuts]

I'm confused:

I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
'decimation'.

One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
the others without regard to possible aliasing".

The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".

Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?

Thanks,

DanaK8YUM
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Re: [time-nuts] Resampling/decimating (was: Frequency standards for different tau in Allen Dev measurement)

[Chris Caudle via time-nuts]

On Mon, February 24, 2020 7:15 pm, Gary E. Miller via time-nuts wrote:
> The words "decimate" and "decimation" do not apear in that book.

That is not correct, the term appears in chapter 3:
"...a procedure called decimation."
http://www.dspguide.com/ch3/6.htm

-- 
Chris Caudle



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Re: [time-nuts] Oven Controlled Voltage Controlled SAW Oscillators

[Bob kb8tq via time-nuts]

Hi

Ovenized (and non-ovenized) SAW oscillators have been around as products for a 
long time
( a couple of decades). The first one I did up was back in the 1970’s, more as 
a “look at this” 
rather than a real product. 

Since they are running directly at VHF / UHF you can get better far removed 
phase noise
with then compared to an oscillator multiplied from a (much) lower frequency. 
That is the
basis for their “much better phase noise” statement. If you compared a VHF SAW 
to a
crystal oscillator running at the same VHF frequency (say 120 MHz) the SAW 
would not
have an advantage. 

Jitter is very much a function of the mask you use. If the mask starts very 
close to carrier
(say 10 Hz) and does not run very far out (say 10 KHz) the SAW isn’t going to 
look very 
good. If the mask starts at 10 KHz and runs out to 100 MHz, the SAW will have 
“low jitter”. 
It’s all going to depend on what your system is sensitive to.

The big advantage to an ovenized SAW is that it *can* have an EFC that will 
lock it up.
The tempco of a SAW without the oven makes “full range” EFC difficult ( which 
degrades
performance ….). 

All that said, people *do* make VCO’s with very low phase noise at frequencies 
even 
higher than what you can hit with a SAW. If you are trying to do a very low 
noise microwave
“something”, they likely will be part of the mix.

In direct answer to the question about “do they have any use in timing?”. Yes, 
I have designed
them into systems in the (distant) past. 

Bob



> On Feb 25, 2020, at 8:46 AM, John Moran, Scawby Design via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Do these devices have any use in the TimeNuts community?
> 
> https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/digital-integrated-circuits/iqd-launches-ocvcsos-2020-02/
> 
> They claim lower phase noise and noise floor and jitter.
> 
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[time-nuts] Oven Controlled Voltage Controlled SAW Oscillators

[John Moran, Scawby Design via time-nuts]

Do these devices have any use in the TimeNuts community?

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/digital-integrated-circuits/iqd-launches-ocvcsos-2020-02/

They claim lower phase noise and noise floor and jitter.

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Re: [time-nuts] Resampling/decimating (was: Frequency standards for different tau in Allen Dev measurement)

[Bob kb8tq via time-nuts]

Hi

If you really want to do a deep dive:

https://www.amazon.com/Multirate-Signal-Processing-Communication-Systems-dp-0137009054/dp/0137009054/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=
 


Is a very good book on the topic. However, I don’t think it’s worth the $980 
asking price on 
that Amazon listing :)

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2020, at 12:48 AM, Orin Eman via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> It is there, but briefly...
> 
> http://www.dspguide.com/ch3/6.htm
> 
> You have to look for 'multirate'.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 9:41 PM Gary E. Miller via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yo Poul-Henning!
>> 
>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:26:09 +
>> Poul-Henning Kamp via time-nuts  wrote:
>> 
> Anyone have any references to how to decimate properly?
>>> 
>>> I can highly recommend this free book:
>>> 
>>>  http://www.dspguide.com/
>> 
>> The words "decimate" and "decimation" do not apear in that book.
>> 
>> RGDS
>> GARY
>> ---
>> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>>g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>> 
>>Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>>"If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin
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>> 
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