Re: [time-nuts] "When you google word ..."

[The Fiber Guru]

I actually had the privilege of hearing David Allan present his theories in the 
yearly NIST conference in Boulder.  Interesting fellow.

One thing that was pretty cool is that NIST developed a fountain clock that is 
so accurate it is influenced by altitude.  They had to raise the clock once to 
install a new floor beneath and when they raised the clock it impacted the 
frequency.  Originally discouraged by this it suddenly occurred to someone that 
they had developed an extremely accurate way to measure height!  Now they just 
have to miniaturize it and make it affordable (of course this is the bane of 
laboratory experiments).

I was once Dir of R at a fortune 50 electronics firm and love hanging out in 
labs like NIST.

db

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 7:00 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Also when you google  "alien deviation" you get:
> 
> About 11,800,000 results (0.50 seconds) 
> 
> Cheers! :>)
> 
> Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency Counter Choice

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

I second this. You can read the calibration data out of the counter and
save. I've done some experiments with that, but nothing conclusive, but
I blame my lack of patience and not a proper setup.

Do replace the battery, it is cheap and relatively easy to do.

Would you loose this calibration, through a little GPIB commands one can
write a fake value in. This will however not produce the best resu. The
calibration routine actually runs an off beat frequency and then test
different values, and look for least RMS value, because it is the
calibration point. I've not had time to replicate all that, but I did
manage to write the fake value in and at one time get rid of the CAL
LOST warning.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-10-29 14:17, Azelio Boriani wrote:
> For those who have the PM6681 (aka CNT81): check the 3V memory backup
> cell and replace it before the dreaded calibration lost (CAL LOST)
> will appear on the LCD. Replace the coin cell with great care (with
> the counter powered up), see the service manual for the procedure.
> 
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM Magnus Danielson  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2020-10-22 19:13, Attila Kinali wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 11:50:08 +
>>> Giorgio Barinetti  wrote:
>>>
 Choices are many, but I'll try to avoid the "older" machines lile 5370 or 
 5335. The 531xx series seems nice ( money apart )
 But again : which one between the 3 ? 53131, 53132 or 53181 ?
>>> Maybe try to get hold of one of the Philips (later licensed to
>>> Fluke) PM6680 or PM6681? These are more common in Europe than
>>> in the US, so the big US dominated websites/forums/.. don't
>>> mention them that often. Solid devices that can be had as low
>>> as 300€ if you are willing to wait, 500-800€ is the usual going
>>> price. The SR620 is the workhorse that drives a lot of the
>>> time and frequency metrology worldwide and can be had new and
>>> used (new on http://thinksrs.com goes for 800-2000€ used).
>>>
>>> If you go for a new one, I would consider looking at the
>>> Pendulum CNT-90 and CNT-91. (Pendulum is the company that
>>> took over Philips frequency counter business and the CNT-90
>>> is the continuation of the PM668x line, also sold as PM6690
>>> by Fluke)
>> Let me correct on the history and geniology there.
>>
>> Philips had a instrument making side called Philips Industrier Järfälla
>> that did a range of measurement instruments. Later they joined forces
>> with Fluke. Later Philips felt that the business unit was a bad fit to
>> stay in Philips, so they sold it off to become a separate company which
>> became Pendelum. Pendelum was really the business unit with people etc
>> through that process, and the Fluke relation and rebranding continued.
>> Naturally Pendelum moved out of the Philips Industrier Järfälla office
>> over to Bälstabro (both locations in north of Stockholm) as it was sold
>> off. Pendelum also managed to rebrand their counters to Tektronix, which
>> mainly consisted of cosmetic changes to get the look and feel. Pendelum
>> was operated for many years like this, some of their production in
>> Pajala, where as other where done in Bälstabro. Later they reshaped the
>> production so that it moved to Poland where it remains. Pendulum was
>> sold to Spectracom and was operated as a subsidary for a while, until
>> they shut operation down.
>>
>> The CNT-80/81 (PM 6680 and PM6681) production went on as long as they
>> had the timing ASIC. The CNT-90 (100 ps) was developed to the CNT-91 (50
>> ps), where the later replaced the CNT-81 (50 ps). They aimed to do the
>> CNT-92, but could not at that time do it with the same technical setup.
>> They also had the Wander Meter WM-10 which aided in testing telecom
>> sync. After some testing, I suggested they would broaden the product to
>> handle more signals and that is when they mostly firmware upgraded it to
>> the WM-11, and first time I tested the WM-11 the second '1' was cut out
>> from another '10' print and put over the '0'. Also, it was still under
>> development. Several years later they where still going back to my list
>> of feedback. They later did a revamped this into a new instrument with
>> even improved capabilities such as interfaces boards. This was later
>> sold off to Calnex which sells it as Sentinel, which is a great product
>> for telecom operators.
>>
>> I still have contact with some of the Philips/Fluke/Pendelum staff and
>> owner.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>>
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[time-nuts] "When you google word ..."

[cdelect]

Also when you google  "alien deviation" you get:

 About 11,800,000 results (0.50 seconds) 

Cheers! :>)

Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5345A Noise Floor

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

According to page 1-3 in https://bama.edebris.com/download/hp/5345a/5345a_6.pdf 


The 5345 is a 2 ns counter. Roughly speaking, that normally gets you around  
2x10^-9
at 1 second.

That would suggest there is something a bit off in your setup. 

Bob

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Giorgio Barinetti  wrote:
> 
> Hi All.
> 
> While I’m waiting for a 5370B to come ( find it cheap and beautiful from 
> France ) I’ve put my old 5345A on a trial, connecting both the
> Inputs to the 10 mhz out from an Oscilloquartz 3200 Cesium Oscillator.
> 
> Those are the results. Please advise 
> 
> Regards,
> Giorgio.
> [cid:image001.gif@01D6ADF5.5EDF8CF0]
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Re: [time-nuts] ES100 Atomic Clock Receiver Back in Stock

[Dana Whitlow]

Just to be clear, is the ES-100 the receiver used in the Ultratomic clocks
made by Lacrosse?

Dana


On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 7:38 AM Ben Hall  wrote:

> Good morning all,
>
> Universal Solder is showing the ES-100 WWVB BPSK clock kits back in
> stock.  Just put me one on order.  :)
>
> <
> https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-kit-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/
> >
>
> Thanks much and 73,
> ben, kd5byb
>
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[time-nuts] HP 5345A Noise Floor

[Giorgio Barinetti]

Hi All.

While I’m waiting for a 5370B to come ( find it cheap and beautiful from France 
) I’ve put my old 5345A on a trial, connecting both the
Inputs to the 10 mhz out from an Oscilloquartz 3200 Cesium Oscillator.

Those are the results. Please advise 

Regards,
Giorgio.
[cid:image001.gif@01D6ADF5.5EDF8CF0]
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Re: [time-nuts] ES100 Atomic Clock Receiver Back in Stock

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Just to be complete: They also have the “modules” as well. You can buy
the full up Arduino device with display or (for less money) just the little
board with the chip and a few vital parts on it. 

They claim to be testing 3,000 of them …..

Bob

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 7:56 AM, Ben Hall  wrote:
> 
> Good morning all,
> 
> Universal Solder is showing the ES-100 WWVB BPSK clock kits back in stock.  
> Just put me one on order.  :)
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks much and 73,
> ben, kd5byb
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency Counter Choice

[Azelio Boriani]

For those who have the PM6681 (aka CNT81): check the 3V memory backup
cell and replace it before the dreaded calibration lost (CAL LOST)
will appear on the LCD. Replace the coin cell with great care (with
the counter powered up), see the service manual for the procedure.


On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM Magnus Danielson  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 2020-10-22 19:13, Attila Kinali wrote:
> > On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 11:50:08 +
> > Giorgio Barinetti  wrote:
> >
> >> Choices are many, but I'll try to avoid the "older" machines lile 5370 or 
> >> 5335. The 531xx series seems nice ( money apart )
> >> But again : which one between the 3 ? 53131, 53132 or 53181 ?
> > Maybe try to get hold of one of the Philips (later licensed to
> > Fluke) PM6680 or PM6681? These are more common in Europe than
> > in the US, so the big US dominated websites/forums/.. don't
> > mention them that often. Solid devices that can be had as low
> > as 300€ if you are willing to wait, 500-800€ is the usual going
> > price. The SR620 is the workhorse that drives a lot of the
> > time and frequency metrology worldwide and can be had new and
> > used (new on http://thinksrs.com goes for 800-2000€ used).
> >
> > If you go for a new one, I would consider looking at the
> > Pendulum CNT-90 and CNT-91. (Pendulum is the company that
> > took over Philips frequency counter business and the CNT-90
> > is the continuation of the PM668x line, also sold as PM6690
> > by Fluke)
>
> Let me correct on the history and geniology there.
>
> Philips had a instrument making side called Philips Industrier Järfälla
> that did a range of measurement instruments. Later they joined forces
> with Fluke. Later Philips felt that the business unit was a bad fit to
> stay in Philips, so they sold it off to become a separate company which
> became Pendelum. Pendelum was really the business unit with people etc
> through that process, and the Fluke relation and rebranding continued.
> Naturally Pendelum moved out of the Philips Industrier Järfälla office
> over to Bälstabro (both locations in north of Stockholm) as it was sold
> off. Pendelum also managed to rebrand their counters to Tektronix, which
> mainly consisted of cosmetic changes to get the look and feel. Pendelum
> was operated for many years like this, some of their production in
> Pajala, where as other where done in Bälstabro. Later they reshaped the
> production so that it moved to Poland where it remains. Pendulum was
> sold to Spectracom and was operated as a subsidary for a while, until
> they shut operation down.
>
> The CNT-80/81 (PM 6680 and PM6681) production went on as long as they
> had the timing ASIC. The CNT-90 (100 ps) was developed to the CNT-91 (50
> ps), where the later replaced the CNT-81 (50 ps). They aimed to do the
> CNT-92, but could not at that time do it with the same technical setup.
> They also had the Wander Meter WM-10 which aided in testing telecom
> sync. After some testing, I suggested they would broaden the product to
> handle more signals and that is when they mostly firmware upgraded it to
> the WM-11, and first time I tested the WM-11 the second '1' was cut out
> from another '10' print and put over the '0'. Also, it was still under
> development. Several years later they where still going back to my list
> of feedback. They later did a revamped this into a new instrument with
> even improved capabilities such as interfaces boards. This was later
> sold off to Calnex which sells it as Sentinel, which is a great product
> for telecom operators.
>
> I still have contact with some of the Philips/Fluke/Pendelum staff and
> owner.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] power supply for Z3801

[Oz-in-DFW]

On 10/28/2020 5:32 PM, jimlux wrote:
> The 48-ish volt power supply for my Z3801 gave up the ghost..
>
> What's the latest in off-the-shelf power supplies (external is fine,
> uncased is fine)?
>
> There were plenty of suggestions on the list a few years back, and I
> can pick one of those up, but hey, someone else might have walked this
> path before more recently.
>
> Or, should I go get 4 12V sealed lead acid, 4 12V wallwart trickle
> chargers and make a 48 Volt supply? (I can't imagine it would be
> cheaper than some Meanwell PS)
>
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I dis(re)member how much current you need, but recycling (surplus) is
probably a good option as well:

https://www.mpja.com/48-Volt-Power-Supply/products/544/

https://www.allelectronics.com/category/480150/power-supplies/48-volts-dc-power-supplies/1.html

https://www.bgmicro.com/1B1403.aspx

and a host of others. A decent range of cost and reliability options.
Derating  and cooling are the real reliability enhancers in decently
designed supplies.

And, this was designed for a telecom application, so it's /probably
/rated for 36-72 VDC. This is the normal specd range for 48 V nominal. 
I'd still use a 48 V supply, but would be too concerned about regulation.

Oz (in DFW)
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[time-nuts] ES100 Atomic Clock Receiver Back in Stock

[Ben Hall]

Good morning all,

Universal Solder is showing the ES-100 WWVB BPSK clock kits back in 
stock.  Just put me one on order.  :)




Thanks much and 73,
ben, kd5byb

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Re: [time-nuts] power supply for Z3801

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

I think you will find that most of this gear came in two voltage 
ranges. One version ran from about 20V to about 34V The
other version ran from about 36V to about 56V. The first one
gets called 24 or 28V. The second one gets called 48V. Both
*should* be able to run off a pretty basic supply.

Bob

> On Oct 28, 2020, at 7:24 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> Jim
> I think anything will do. Internally it hits a bunch of switchers that
> convert to the internal needs. One funny thing I have run into is that
> switchers do not always like feeding switchers. Or perhaps a larger
> switcher to handle the startup current is the trick.
> I believe on the back of the 3801 it says the supply range an I think there
> were two models.
> Something like 36V. Been a while with respect to digging in but the 3801
> still is working.
> I actually used 24 X 24V linears in series. Typical lamdas...
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 6:57 PM jimlux  wrote:
> 
>> The 48-ish volt power supply for my Z3801 gave up the ghost..
>> 
>> What's the latest in off-the-shelf power supplies (external is fine,
>> uncased is fine)?
>> 
>> There were plenty of suggestions on the list a few years back, and I can
>> pick one of those up, but hey, someone else might have walked this path
>> before more recently.
>> 
>> Or, should I go get 4 12V sealed lead acid, 4 12V wallwart trickle
>> chargers and make a 48 Volt supply? (I can't imagine it would be cheaper
>> than some Meanwell PS)
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] power supply for Z3801

[Larry McDavid]

I have three HP Z3801A GPSDO, one of which runs 24/7 and has done so for 
many years. Because I wanted something conservative that would run 
reliably for a long time, I bought a Power One HD48-3-A 48 vdc 3A open 
frame supply.


I modified the supply by adding a finned heat sink 6.5 x 2.5 x 1.3 (fin 
height) inch heat sink to one side for additional cooling. I added some 
fish paper to close the open side of the supply and just set it in a 
safe place, positioned so the fins of the added heat sink are vertical. 
It runs on a 1500 VA UPS. I see this same P/N supply is still available 
many places but it may not be called a PowerOne now.


I did change one resistor in the voltage-setting pot string so that I 
could adjust the output voltage a bit higher, to 50 vdc. I did that at 
the time because the popular website for the Z3801A recommended it.


Whichever one of the three Z3801A units is in use, it runs without issue 
and is always in GPS LOCK and never in HOLDOVER. I use a Spectracom GPS 
timing antenna atop my 2-storey house roof, with clear horizon view, fed 
with Heliax hard line to a GPS Source S14WI 4-way amplified splitter, 
feeding several other kinds of GPS devices. All these GPSDO run on the 
UPS. Recently, I suffered a 3-hour power outage, very unusual here. All 
the GPSDO went down but came back up in LOCK in less than 15 minutes 
when power was restored; it took 24 hours for the APC SmartUPS UPS to 
fully recharge!


I truly despise switching power supplies. For something I want to run 
24/7 with high reliability and trouble-free, I will use an old-fashioned 
linear supply every time.


I have a switching supply that will run all three Z3801A concurrently. 
That supply has failed twice. Nuts to SMPS...


Larry


On 10/28/2020 3:32 PM, jimlux wrote:

The 48-ish volt power supply for my Z3801 gave up the ghost..

What's the latest in off-the-shelf power supplies (external is fine, 
uncased is fine)?

...

--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California  (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)

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