[time-nuts] Re: Primary frequency standard
On 3/26/21 6:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: At HP, it was explained that a primary standard could be built on a desert island containing no frequency standards nor any GPS receivers, etc. and it would be guaranteed by design to meet its spec. It could have adjustments, either operated by a technician or a computer controlled algorithm, but none of them consisted of "setting" the frequency to the correct value using a frequency counter, etc. It isn't based on accuracy. The reduced performance HP 5062 is still primary, even though the 5061 is more accurate. Similarly, the 5071 is still more accurate, but the 61 and 62 retain their primary status. ADEV is not an issue to qualify for primary status. Would a sundial (or zenith meridian crossing sensor) be a primary standard for measurement of a solar day? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Primary frequency standard
At HP, it was explained that a primary standard could be built on a desert island containing no frequency standards nor any GPS receivers, etc. and it would be guaranteed by design to meet its spec. It could have adjustments, either operated by a technician or a computer controlled algorithm, but none of them consisted of "setting" the frequency to the correct value using a frequency counter, etc. It isn't based on accuracy. The reduced performance HP 5062 is still primary, even though the 5061 is more accurate. Similarly, the 5071 is still more accurate, but the 61 and 62 retain their primary status. ADEV is not an issue to qualify for primary status. Rick N6RK On 3/26/2021 2:42 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: In reference to: "It would be cool to say one has a "primary standard", So, I think we should be careful with the term, it's get thrown around too lightly." Any of the hobby grade used Cesium standards is actually a Primary frequency standard as it does meet the definition of: A frequency source that meets national standards for accuracy and operates without the need for calibration against an external standard. They ARE able to meet their accuracy specs without calibration against an external standard. The definition does not exclude them. I realize that Metrology usage may be different but the definition makes no judgement as to how performance levels! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV
These are the files I downloaded several years ago, what looks to be the windows executable is inside a secondary zip file, publish.zip. I don't recall trying to use any of this as I always calibrated 5680As using the manual method. I've now uploaded the file to mediafire... https://www.mediafire.com/file/hufx06bdzojcgko/5680A.zip/file Please don't tell me the file is showing as containing a virus or whatever, I've shared loads of files via mediafire, plus rapidshare in days gone by, and have never yet had a report of dodgy files that turned out to be anything other then a false alarm. Having said that, if the link don't work just let me know and I'll try again:-) Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Primary frequency standard
In reference to: "It would be cool to say one has a "primary standard", So, I think we should be careful with the term, it's get thrown around too lightly." Any of the hobby grade used Cesium standards is actually a Primary frequency standard as it does meet the definition of: A frequency source that meets national standards for accuracy and operates without the need for calibration against an external standard. They ARE able to meet their accuracy specs without calibration against an external standard. The definition does not exclude them. I realize that Metrology usage may be different but the definition makes no judgement as to how performance levels! Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV
To all who requested, I uploaded the entire .Zip file to KO4BB manual site: http://www.ko4bb.com/ The filename is Fe5680Calibrator.zip It should be available to download soon. Cheers, DaveM From: "Alberto di Bene" To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 1:31:42 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV On 2021-03-26 19:18, DM wrote: > The search is complete!! A friend sent me what appears to be the full > package, the .exe and source code (although the source code is all Greek to > me). Any chances that you will make it available also to others ? Thanks 73 Alberto I2PHD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] list STATUS - moderation now off
Some administrative info (no need to reply). 1) We are still working on the time-nuts upgrade. When things solidify John will post details. 2) The time-nuts mailing list is currently unmoderated. a) When moderated, every posting is checked manually before it goes out. This is possible because the volume of this list is quite low. Many posting mistakes are caught this way. The review process helps make the SNR of the list very high. But it takes time. b) When unmoderated, postings go out to the list without review or delay. This results in more immediate postings but it also tends to increase the noise. The list works best when everyone stays on-topic and posts technical-rich content. We switch modes now and then as needed. 3) List emails (these are unchanged): a) the main time-nuts list address is: time-nuts@lists.febo.com b) the time-nuts admin address is: time-nuts-ow...@lists.febo.com Technical postings/replies go to the main mailing list address. Questions about the list itself, problems with posting, attachments, bounces, membership, or conflict with others should go to the private admin address. 4) Join and leave (these are new): c) to join time-nuts send an email to: time-nuts-j...@lists.febo.com d) to leave time-nuts send an email to: time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com 5) I keep the Time Nuts home page up-to-date with current info. It also contains background information for new members: http://leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm If you have comments/questions, email the list admin account (don't hit reply). Thanks, /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV
share? On 2021-03-26 12:18, DM wrote: The search is complete!! A friend sent me what appears to be the full package, the .exe and source code (although the source code is all Greek to me). I'll be playing with that in a few day & see if it will do what I need. My FE-5680A has aged a bit over the years and I'd like to get it back on track. Hopefully, this program will help with that. Thanks to all who replied. DaveM From: "DM" To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:42:55 PM Subject: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV I've run across several references to a FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV, but searches for it have been quite unfruitful. Does anyone have a link to it, or know how to get in touch with Bob Campbell? I've searched for his web site, but it seems to have gone into never-never land. Thanks for any help, DaveM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. -- The whole world is a straight man. -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834 VOX: 406-626-4304 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV
On 2021-03-26 19:18, DM wrote: The search is complete!! A friend sent me what appears to be the full package, the .exe and source code (although the source code is all Greek to me). Any chances that you will make it available also to others ? Thanks 73 Alberto I2PHD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV
The search is complete!! A friend sent me what appears to be the full package, the .exe and source code (although the source code is all Greek to me). I'll be playing with that in a few day & see if it will do what I need. My FE-5680A has aged a bit over the years and I'd like to get it back on track. Hopefully, this program will help with that. Thanks to all who replied. DaveM From: "DM" To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:42:55 PM Subject: FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV I've run across several references to a FE-5680A Calibrator program by Bob Campbell VK4XV, but searches for it have been quite unfruitful. Does anyone have a link to it, or know how to get in touch with Bob Campbell? I've searched for his web site, but it seems to have gone into never-never land. Thanks for any help, DaveM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Long term ADEV of 5071
You can do the ADEV just fine using Circular T. Long-term 5071 does not dominate the TAI phase/frequency, but they do dominate for stability. This is the difference between EAL and TAI, the 5071's go into EAL, but EAL is then frequency corrected with a handful of primary references (cesium fointains) into TAI. EAL just try to be as stable as possible, without careing too much about phase and frequency. Cheers, Magnus On 2021-03-26 11:00, Azelio Boriani wrote: > Maybe HP5071s will get their ADEV when optical clocks will officially rule... > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 9:40 AM Magnus Danielson wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-03-25 19:21, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> >>> Attila Kinali writes: >>> Does someone of those who own a 5071 have long-term ADEV data? I'm looking for multi-year data. While there are plenty of ADEV plots online, most of them stop at 1Ms or even at 100ks. >>> As I understand it, cesium beams are considered "primary" standards >>> because once the ADEV hits the floor, it stays down there ? >> "primary" standard means different things in different context. >> >> In telecom, it means it adheres to ITU-T G.811 specifications, which >> effectively puts within 1E-11 in maximum frequency error, which is what >> analog cesiums can deliver. Most of the cesiums we attain as hobbyists >> was designed to meet this spec. The underlying specification driving it >> was to keep data-slip rate between two operators down to once in 70 >> days. It was reasonably achieveable with the technology at hand and for >> the total cost so I think it was fair. >> >> In metrology "primary standard" has a complete different meaning, and in >> practice all clocks we hobbyists gets to have would not fit, they would >> all be more or less good "secondary standards". >> >> The sales people for vendors will be happy to underblow the >> understanding of you being able to buy and have your own "primary >> standard". If it where, you would not be needing traceability to >> anything else, but you end up needing to have that anyway, and in >> reality the "primary" reference is actually one of the few that >> contributes to the international realization. I've seen a few of those, >> but not in my basement. >> >> The "primary reference" is not about ADEV hitting the floor, all devices >> do that (for a strict definition of what should be measured in ADEV). >> It's about the context one consider it "primary". >> >> It would be cool to say one has a "primary standard", and depending on >> context I have several working or none. Coolness aside, when talking to >> metrology folks and national metrology labs, I might have some clocks, >> but I do not call them "primary reference", because most of them does >> not have that either. >> >> So, I think we should be careful with the term, it's get thrown around >> too lightly. >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an >> email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Long term ADEV of 5071
Maybe HP5071s will get their ADEV when optical clocks will officially rule... On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 9:40 AM Magnus Danielson wrote: > > Hi, > > On 2021-03-25 19:21, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > Attila Kinali writes: > > > >> Does someone of those who own a 5071 have long-term ADEV data? > >> I'm looking for multi-year data. While there are plenty of ADEV > >> plots online, most of them stop at 1Ms or even at 100ks. > > As I understand it, cesium beams are considered "primary" standards > > because once the ADEV hits the floor, it stays down there ? > > "primary" standard means different things in different context. > > In telecom, it means it adheres to ITU-T G.811 specifications, which > effectively puts within 1E-11 in maximum frequency error, which is what > analog cesiums can deliver. Most of the cesiums we attain as hobbyists > was designed to meet this spec. The underlying specification driving it > was to keep data-slip rate between two operators down to once in 70 > days. It was reasonably achieveable with the technology at hand and for > the total cost so I think it was fair. > > In metrology "primary standard" has a complete different meaning, and in > practice all clocks we hobbyists gets to have would not fit, they would > all be more or less good "secondary standards". > > The sales people for vendors will be happy to underblow the > understanding of you being able to buy and have your own "primary > standard". If it where, you would not be needing traceability to > anything else, but you end up needing to have that anyway, and in > reality the "primary" reference is actually one of the few that > contributes to the international realization. I've seen a few of those, > but not in my basement. > > The "primary reference" is not about ADEV hitting the floor, all devices > do that (for a strict definition of what should be measured in ADEV). > It's about the context one consider it "primary". > > It would be cool to say one has a "primary standard", and depending on > context I have several working or none. Coolness aside, when talking to > metrology folks and national metrology labs, I might have some clocks, > but I do not call them "primary reference", because most of them does > not have that either. > > So, I think we should be careful with the term, it's get thrown around > too lightly. > > Cheers, > Magnus > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Long term ADEV of 5071
Hi, On 2021-03-25 19:21, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Attila Kinali writes: > >> Does someone of those who own a 5071 have long-term ADEV data? >> I'm looking for multi-year data. While there are plenty of ADEV >> plots online, most of them stop at 1Ms or even at 100ks. > As I understand it, cesium beams are considered "primary" standards > because once the ADEV hits the floor, it stays down there ? "primary" standard means different things in different context. In telecom, it means it adheres to ITU-T G.811 specifications, which effectively puts within 1E-11 in maximum frequency error, which is what analog cesiums can deliver. Most of the cesiums we attain as hobbyists was designed to meet this spec. The underlying specification driving it was to keep data-slip rate between two operators down to once in 70 days. It was reasonably achieveable with the technology at hand and for the total cost so I think it was fair. In metrology "primary standard" has a complete different meaning, and in practice all clocks we hobbyists gets to have would not fit, they would all be more or less good "secondary standards". The sales people for vendors will be happy to underblow the understanding of you being able to buy and have your own "primary standard". If it where, you would not be needing traceability to anything else, but you end up needing to have that anyway, and in reality the "primary" reference is actually one of the few that contributes to the international realization. I've seen a few of those, but not in my basement. The "primary reference" is not about ADEV hitting the floor, all devices do that (for a strict definition of what should be measured in ADEV). It's about the context one consider it "primary". It would be cool to say one has a "primary standard", and depending on context I have several working or none. Coolness aside, when talking to metrology folks and national metrology labs, I might have some clocks, but I do not call them "primary reference", because most of them does not have that either. So, I think we should be careful with the term, it's get thrown around too lightly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
