[time-nuts] Re: Noise down-converter project

2022-05-11 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Do you need a 4647?

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
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-Original Message-
From: ed breya [mailto:e...@telight.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 1:57 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Noise down-converter project

The noise converter project based on the Scientific Atlanta 4647 is 
moving along nicely. Still no luck in finding any more info about this 
unit, but I did quite a bit of digging in the guts, and figured out 
enough to make progress.

The noise generator, to my surprise, is not a typical noise-diode-based 
type, but an all-amplifier deal, and apparently the fundamental noise 
source is a 75 ohm resistor in conjunction with the input noise of a 
2N5179 amplifier front end. The first few stages are broadband, followed 
by maybe eight bandpass stages, to craft the power level and shape, 
resulting in the 50-90 MHz noise signal, which gets passed to the noise 
amplifier box.

The noise amplifier is broadband again, then feeding a CATV type hybrid 
power amp for final output, which goes through a ferrite part, which is 
either a splitter or directional coupler, for leveling, then on to a 
decade step attenuator using Teledyne TO-5 style relays. The leveling 
signal from the local detector is sent back to the noise generator box 
where it somehow does the gain control. Altogether, a couple dozen or so 
transistors are used in the gain stages.

The step attenuator output is sent to the last box, the "C+N amplifier," 
where the external carrier input is attenuated with a step attenuator, 
then amplified up and leveled in similar fashion (including another CATV 
hybrid PA), then through its own step attenuator, and added to the noise 
through a reactive power combiner. So, the noise and carrier signals are 
each at least 3 dB bigger than the spec output levels, to accommodate 
the adding process.

I added a small board into the noise amp module, with an RF relay to 
pass the signal as normal, or route it to the new converter. The maximum 
PSD of the noise available there is about -70 dBm/Hz, versus the -73 
dBm/Hz at the normal C+N output.

The rest of the action is all built into the 70 MHz oscillator/agc amp 
module now. I sacrificed the agc amp function, and utilized the space 
for the mixer and LPF, and added yet another CATV type PA in the 
oscillator section, for the LO. More on this in the next installment.

Ed
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[time-nuts] Re: looking for MITREX modem manual/documentation

2022-03-25 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Good luck;
This was one of the first projects I worked on when I joined Comsat Labs.
  Les

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
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-Original Message-
From: jeanmichel.fri...@femto-st.fr [mailto:jeanmichel.fri...@femto-st.fr] 
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:45 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: looking for MITREX modem manual/documentation

Thank you all for the very fruitful exchanges and providing the references
I was looking for (by private email).

FYI I indeed tried the brute force search as documented at
https://github.com/oscimp/gr-satre/tree/main/reverse_code
but wanted to try to find some formal documentation demonstrating the
orthogonality
of the codes beyond "trust me, we selected the best codes for maximum
orthogonality".

Also if anyone is interested, I am looking into receiving TWSTFT exchange
using TV
parabola (of course receiving only !). That is for fun since, for work the
modem is
being assembled indeed, but that is off topic :)

Thank you very much, Jean-Michel

--
JM Friedt, FEMTO-ST Time & Frequency, 26 rue de l'Epitaphe, 25000 Besancon,
France

March 25, 2022 5:40 PM, "Lux, Jim"  wrote:

> On 3/25/22 7:45 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote:
> 
>> From the paper "PRESENT STATE OF LONG DISTANCE TIME TRANSFER VIA
>> SATELLITES WITH APPLICATION OF THE MITREX - MODEM", Hartl specifies
>> that "The PN-code is a truncated maximum length sequence of period
>> 10.000, instead of the 16.383 chips". In the Xilinx application note
>> XAPP052, we can find that the taps for an MLS of 14 bits should be
>> 14,5,3,1. In the paper "GEOSTATIONARY SATELLITE POSITION DETERMINATION
>> FOR COMMON-VIEW TWO-WAY TIME TRANSFER MEASUREMENTS" there is an
>> introduction that suggests the MITREX 2500 modem has a variable
>> pseudorandom noise sequence. Maybe the modem was built in different
>> versions wrt the PN sequence generation.
> 
> There's a fair number of of maximal sequences of length 2^14-1 . And
> it's possible that they chose a non-maximal sequence that had "better"
> properties. Maximal sequences will have a run of N ones and (N-1) zeros,
> for instance, which might not have enough transitions per unit time to
> let the receiver get a good lock.  Or they picked a "good" 10kbit
> sequence in the middle of a maximal sequence.
> 
> It could also be a composite code (the XOR of multiple PN sequences) -
> none of the papers seems to say anything about tap configurations.
> 
> I'd suggest seeing if you could find an email address for Professor
> Hartl - He'd be 94 now.  I think he retired from Univ Stuttgart in 1990.
> 
> At 2 Mchip/second, you could pretty easily build a MITREX type modem
today.
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 2:37 PM  wrote:
>>> Dear community,
>>> I am trying to find historical documents describing the pseudo random
sequences used
>>> in the SATRE Two-Way Satellite Time and Frequency Transfer (TWSTFT)
modem.
>>> K. Imamura & F. Takahashi (Two Way Time Transfer Via a Geostationnary
Satellite,
>>> J. of the Comm. Research Lab., 39(1), March 1992) describe the code
structure
>>> (14-bit long pseudo random sequence truncated to 1 bit length) but
the
>>> generator polynomial coefficients are not given. I have not been able to
find this
>>> information in Timetech's SATRE manual nor in the publicly available
literature.
>>> This paper cites "P. Hartl, A modem for microwave time and ranging
experiments
>>> via telecommunication satellites, MITREX2500 Manual, Jan 1989" which I
am unable
>>> to locate.
>>> Would anyone have such a document, or at least could tell me whether the
generator
>>> polynomials are described there? Alternatively, does anyone have a
description of these
>>> 14-bit polynomial generators?
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Jean-Michel
>>> 
>>> --
>>> JM Friedt, FEMTO-ST Time & Frequency, 26 rue de l'Epitaphe, 25000
Besancon, France
>>> ___
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>> 
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[time-nuts] Re: Frequency Standard - Where Can I Get One.

2021-11-23 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
That reminds me;  Used to have a TWTT link via satellite watching a Caesium
at an English Gov site.  Was puzzled to watch the relative freq cycle day
and night until we learned the UKGOV site  room at nit and day different
temperature control settings.  1 UK Cs vs. our 3 Cs and ulta pure flywheel.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y (Reformed USNSG CTM1)
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln
Keyser WV 26726 USA

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
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-Original Message-
From: Lux, Jim [mailto:j...@luxfamily.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 10:56 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Frequency Standard - Where Can I Get One.

On 11/22/21 7:51 PM, Bill Notfaded wrote:
> There's no substitute for a few good rubidiums.  OCXO and Rb are
> different.  It's really hard to beat a really good GNSS diciplined Rb!
> Extremely good holdover.  We're timenuts after all right?  Where's the fun
> if you don't try them all?  There isn't any silver bullet or perfect
> solution but I've found with some good measurement and comparisons you too
> can be in the search of better and better stability.  Half the fun is
> finding a better OCXO or finding a really stable Rb.  Testing them all
> against each other is part of the journey.  Letting timelab run all night
> every night.  Flipping back and forth between graphs.  For me it's a hobby
> but I've gotten many many hours of great happiness from it.  The first
time
> I got into 10 ^ -13 how can you explain what that's like?  The huge digits
> on an SR620 you can read from across the room.  I guess it's different for
> each of us but it's something we all share.
>
> Bill


When you get to where you can see the air conditioning or heat in the 
room cycling on and off, with TCXO and OXCOs.. "What's that bump at 1000 
seconds?"

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[time-nuts] Re: NTP servers

2021-11-22 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Yupp

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y (Reformed USNSG CTM1)
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln
Keyser WV 26726 USA

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


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-Original Message-
From: Denny Page via time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 12:16 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: Denny Page
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: NTP servers

Well, someone snatched that up quick.


> On Nov 21, 2021, at 19:11, Denny Page via time-nuts
 wrote:
> 
> Highly recommend the LeoNTP. If you are in the US, there is still one in
stock here:
> 
> https://v3.airspy.us/product/upu-leontp/
> 
> Denny
> 
>> On Nov 21, 2021, at 18:52, W7SLS  wrote:
>> 
>> Another option is the Leo Bodnar NTP device, though it appears to be out
of stock at the moment
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[time-nuts] FW: [usncva] United States Naval Cryptologic Veterans Association - Digest #169

2021-11-05 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
 

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

  les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home: +1-304-289-6057

US cell+1-304-790-9192 

Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 

 

 

From: usn...@groups.io [mailto:usn...@groups.io] On Behalf Of usn...@groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2021 6:11 AM
To: les...@veenstras.com
Subject: [usncva] United States Naval Cryptologic Veterans Association - Digest 
#169

 




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1. 

WWV WWVH Scientific Modulation Working Group  <> 



messages: 



.



1a.  



WWV WWVH Scientific Modulation Working Group 
From: Gus Lott - KR4K 

 
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 19:19:30 EDT 

Interesting experiment is underway in the shortwave bands on 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 
and 20 MHz.

CNSG sponsored many HF experiments that utilized WWV and WWVH. These projects 
included testing ionospheric propagation models, measuring ionospheric movement 
induced doppler shift on HF signals, assessing HF time-difference of arrival 
geopositioning techniques, and calibrating HFDF systems.

The working group asks amateur radio operators and shortwave listeners to 
record the IQ of this special WWV/WWVH signal. Beyond the data collected, the 
working group is trying to give WWV an new, scientific on-air purpose. Details 
are available via:

https://zenodo.org/record/5182323#.YYPl157MIuU

Attached shows the amplitude plot of the special test signal broadcast at 
minute 8 (WWV) and minute 44 (WWVH) each hour.

73/gus kr4k


   Attachments:

  
testsignal.png 


View/Reply Online   | Reply 
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[time-nuts] Re: Test

2021-04-22 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Still here

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
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-Original Message-
From: Wes [mailto:w...@triconet.org] 
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2021 1:41 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Test

No messages in weeks.
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[time-nuts] Re: The Collapse of Puerto Rico’s Iconic Telescope [April 5th, 2021 New Yorker]

2021-03-31 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
RX up here at Green Bank

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

-Original Message-
From: Wes [mailto:w...@triconet.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:34 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: The Collapse of Puerto Rico’s Iconic Telescope [April 
5th, 2021 New Yorker]

On 3/30/2021 4:33 PM, Lux, Jim wrote:
> On 3/30/21 2:56 PM, Wes wrote:
>> You would know better than I, but I was thinking of physical size; 100m v. 
>> 70m.
>>
>> Obviously a BIG difference in TX power.
>>
>> Wes
>
>
> It's all about EIRP, baby.
>
> I know they're talking about half a megawatt for GB, but I don't see it 
> happening. They've spent so much time making it "radio quiet", putting a big 
> honkin transmitter there seems odd.   Just think, a return loss from the feed 
> of -30dB (which is pretty good) is good fraction of a kilowatt. 


But AFAIK the system is bistatic (pseudo-monostatic) so there's no local 
receiver to be subjected to transmitter leakage.  We worried about leakage in 
the pulse doppler radars I'm familiar with; AMRAAM and Phoenix missiles, but 
even they were bistatic for most of their flights, tracking off the aircraft 
fire control radar which had significantly higher ERP.  Only when close to the 
targets did they go active.

Wes
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Re: [time-nuts] EOL Motorola Oncore Remote Antenna

2020-11-30 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
This brings up a point I have made frequently, in my professional life.  
Do not try to seal in electronics (for me , satellite units mounted near or
on the feed system) instead warm the area with electronics and place a weep
hole at the low point. Short of true hermetic seals, any other gasketed box
will inhale water vapor, condense it on the cooler surface, and collect
inside as water over time.  Much better to let the enclosure breath a bit
and drain as needed. The hole should not  be subject to external rain
encouraged to come un, and of course, prevent insects from nesting.  Most
active electronics will naturally form a warmer area, discouraging
condensation.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
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-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Art
Sepin
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 4:23 PM
To: Poul-Henning Kamp; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EOL Motorola Oncore Remote Antenna


> To me it looks more like water ingress through micro-cracks in the
>  plastic-dome, and the O-ring did its job and kept that water in.

Interesting. That's the first we've heard about micro-cracks in the Radome
but that's certainly a likely possibility with such a long exposure to U/V.
The more common failure mode reported was moisture ingress due to
"breathing;" the uptake of moisture laden air past the O-Ring, due to a
small pressure differential. But, once the moisture was inside, it was also
trapped internally by the O-Ring. This condition was reported more often in
geographic areas that experienced a wide variation in barometric pressures.


Art

-Original Message-
From: Poul-Henning Kamp  
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 11:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
; Art Sepin 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EOL Motorola Oncore Remote Antenna



> It's obvious from the photo that the O-Ring seal failed its purpose 
> over its many years of service. Has the unit totally failed or does the
electronic portion still function?

No, the electronics is stone dead.

To me it looks more like water ingress through micro-cracks in the
plastic-dome, and the O-ring did its job and kept that water in.

The microcracks are uniform and seem to follow the molding flow, and that is
probably to be expected in our climate:  We have a lot of humid freeze-thaw
cycles.

I wonder if buffing the radomes with car-wax would help ?

> I said lucky because I found some GSynQ parts here in an engineering 
> storage cabinet that we  can send to you at no charge to revive your unit.

Thanks for the offer, but dont bother: I had a spare on hand, and I may
still have third one lying around somewhere.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Aging 5065A ?

2020-10-08 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
This I suspect is not original, but with respect for the need for 48 bit
resolution, why not, say, a 24 bit, with reduced range such that it's steps
are the same as what  you would see with 48 bits, this stacked (Biased) on a
fixed stable voltage in middle of expected control range. Fixed voltage
could be sourced from an initial courser wide range device.

Since this seems so obvious, who did it first?

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
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-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal
Murray
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2020 6:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Aging 5065A ?


kb...@n1k.org said:
> If you want to run a fixed / well regulated C Field, a DDS with (say) 48
bits
> would allow you to tune the device well past  parts in 10^-15.

I don't know how to think about a DDS in this context.

I remember years ago thinking that a DDS was the greatest thing since sliced

bread.  In the context of something like a PPS going into a PC for 
timekeeping, that's probably true.  You get long term accuracy and the PC 
can't see the short term issues.

But then, somebody mentioned close-in spurs.  They get closer the more bits 
you have in the DDS magic number.  (What is that number called?)


Suppose I have a black box labeled "10 MHz" with a cable coming out.

If you plug that cable into your ADEV measuring setup, can you tell if my
box 
has a DDS in it?

If you plug that cable into your spectrum analyzer, how good a setup do you 
need in order to see the spurs?  Do they get lost in the close in noise?  Or

maybe the question should be how clean a signal do I need to start with
before 
the spurs become visible?  Or what should I be asking?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Some FTS1000 questions

2020-09-11 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Boards?

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


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-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of xaos
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 7:44 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Some FTS1000 questions

As usual, Dr. Griffiths has provided all we need.

Back in 2007 I had a similar issue and he worked out this very nice circuit
using easy to find 2N3904 BJTs.

I simulated the circuit using PSPICE. Here are the details.

https://www.darksmile.net/ee/frequency_doubler_BJT.html

George

On 9/10/2020 19:11, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> You could use either the NIST CG JFET doubler or its bipolar CB
equivalent.
>
> Bruce
>> On 11 September 2020 at 08:43 Tobias Pluess  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear colleagues
>>
>> I recently got a FTS1000 oscillator. (Not FTS1000A or B, but just
FTS1000,
>> I assume it is the first version). It is a very nice unit, but I wanted
to
>> know a bit more about its construction and opened it.
>> After I had replaced the foam which was already quite dissolved, I began
>> reverse engineering the output amplifier.
>> Has someone perhaps already done that?
>> I was thinking about whether it would be possible to replace the output
>> amplifier with one that has an integrated doubler (as my unit is a 5MHz
>> version).
>>
>> BR
>> Tobias
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-10811AB-OCXO interface questions

2020-09-02 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Ordered a bunch of these to test against the TAPR device
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001231758949.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.151
84c4d1hMhZs
TLV3501 Single Chan High Speed Comparator Frequency Meter Front Shaping
Module DC 2.7-5V Frequency Counter SMA
Specifications:

Supply voltage: 2.7-5VDC
Input voltage: 8-1000mV (effective value)
Output level: rail to rail output, can directly TTL / CMOS level
Input frequency: 1Hz-120 MHz, Min.1Hz

shape: SMA female head (external screw hole)
Input impedance: 20 K ohm
 Product Use:
Sine wave
The zero crossing comparator
comparator
Colour:green
Material:metal
Size:about 5*2.5cm

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Feher
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2020 10:01 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-10811AB-OCXO interface questions

I remember the days when we had to build our own discrete Schmitt trigger to
do this. 73 - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Bruce
Griffiths
Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 1:46 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-10811AB-OCXO interface questions

For sine to square wave conversion use LTC6957 (select variant to suit
following logic).


Bruce



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB SDR discussion

2020-08-21 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
That’s a unavailable EBAY listing number
What is the actual La Crosse model or part number for the new software 14"
clocks

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Feher
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 11:00 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB SDR discussion

Hi Don - 

I got two of them on eBay. I got these 274056463528 . They were only $35
each with free shipping, a bargain in my opinion. Of course you can find
smaller diameter ones as well. 73 - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell NJ 07731
848-245-9115

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of DON MURRAY
via time-nuts
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 8:41 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: DON MURRAY 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB SDR discussion


Mike...

Which model did you order?


73
Don
W4WJ

On Thursday, August 20, 2020 Mike Feher  wrote:
I just purchased 2 of those La Crosse 14" clocks and was totally amazed. I
live on the Jersey shore on one acre surrounded by trees and about 8 miles
from the ocean. After I placed batteries in the clock, it went through its
initially routine which was neat in itself, and about an hour or less later
the motors purred again and it went to the exact time and continues to do
so. This was on the first floor of my Colonial in my office next to the
computer and all sorts of other digital and switching PS noise and only
about a foot off the floor. My old Junghans Mega 1000 could never do that. I
have to take it upstairs with me and place it by the front (South facing)
window of the master bedroom and sometime during the night it acquires and
corrects if need be. Regardless, I still like my Junghans, but this new
waveform is amazing. Thanks for mentioning it. Regards - Mike  

 

Mike B. Feher, N4FS

89 Arnold Blvd.

Howell NJ 07731

848-245-9115

 


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Re: [time-nuts] another source of time...

2020-08-06 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Just listen on HfF or example about 17m (18MHz) , with a wide band digital
receiver with a waterfall display. If the band is open at all, you will see
them sweeping up every few minutes. 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of
jimlux
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] another source of time...

I was researching potential calibration sources for our orbiting 
receivers (where we need to line up GNSS signals with HF signals) and 
after looking at the usual suspects like WWV, we came across another one.

Ionosondes - they're all over the place, and these days, they're fairly 
accurately timed (how accurately? I don't know.)

Timing wise, since wide band and oblique sounders are popular, they must 
be fairly well controlled, since the transmitter and receiver are not 
co-located.  A traditional vertical sounder drives the transmitter and 
receiver off the same clock, so they don't care so much about what time 
it is.

I think these things are designed so they have resolutions in "meters" 
or "tens of meters" which implies sub microsecond accuracy at worst.



There's several kinds:

The Oblique/QVI sounder - 100 watts into an omni(-ish) antenna - 2-20 
MHz chirp at 100kHz/second, for 180 seconds total sweep. They do the 
chirp once every 12 minutes.

Wide Sweep Backscatter Ionogram (WSBI) sounder
20 kW(!) into a 2 element log periodic curtain pointed in the general 
direction of an over the horizon radar.  5-28 MHz over 282 seconds, also 
at a 12 minute cadence.



They have some of these in Vieques PR, New Kent VA, and Corpus Christi 
TX.  I would imagine the Australians have some associated with JORN 
(their OTH radar network).  There are plenty of other sounders around, too.


There's a USRP implementation of a receiver for various sounders from 
Juha Vierinen

http://www.radio-science.net/2019/04/oblique-ionograms-between-sodankyla-and
.html




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery

2020-07-30 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Magnus:

   Thanks. I now have a full set of 5771 and 5372 manuals. With lots of app 
notes and other addenda.

   If anyone needs a set on a DVD, be happy to make one for them.

  les

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home: +1-304-289-6057

US cell+1-304-790-9192 

Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 

 

 

From: Magnus Danielson [mailto:mag...@rubidium.se] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 3:25 PM
To: Lester Veenstra; 'Tom Van Baak'; Magnus Danielson
Subject: Re: HP-5372A operation with no battery

 

Hi,

As I looked, I found not the full set of manuals, but an operations/programmer 
manual and a few tidbits. I have however been able to locate the service manual 
elsewhere, electrotanya for instance, and was not too hard to locate with a 
DuckduckGo search +HP5371A +"service manual". I am pretty sure I was able to 
locate it before in other places. Please note that the 5371A service manual is 
in Vol1 and Vol2. I have been able to locate a rather complete set of manuals 
before and download to my older laptop, so I have not seen it as a big problem. 
Maybe I was a little bit smarter than I recall. Sorry for any confusion.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-07-29 20:37, Lester Veenstra wrote:

Magnus:

   I know that site well but was not able to see the 5371 manuals.  I will take 
another look, as I have been known to miss the obvious.

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home: +1-304-289-6057

US cell+1-304-790-9192 

Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 

 

 

From: Magnus Danielson [mailto:mag...@rubidium.se] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 1:21 PM
To: Lester Veenstra; 'Tom Van Baak'; Magnus Danielson
Subject: Re: HP-5372A operation with no battery

 

Tom,

Thanks. Splendid work.

Lester,

As I recall it you will find the full set of 5371A manuals at keysight, just as 
you do for 5372A and 5373A. 

The 5372A has hardware accelerated histogram as improvement over the 5371A. I 
have not found out exactly how the 5373A distinguish itself, it seems like a 
5372A hardware with some software improvements.

So, now I will grab some coffee and write another paper on request, polish on 
one rough draft of another.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-07-29 18:27, Lester Veenstra wrote:

Tom:

   Well, if not real, then I will have to go through the process once again.

 

Now, if only there was a simpler way to get at the test points on the A2 board. 
(Without the specialized extender).  Thinking of adding temporary cables, from 
test points, to the top

 

Any manuals about for the HP-5371?

I now have two hanger queens that may come back to life later.

 

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home: +1-304-289-6057

US cell+1-304-790-9192 

Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 

 

 

From: Tom Van Baak [mailto:t...@leapsecond.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 12:19 PM
To: Lester Veenstra
Subject: Re: HP-5372A operation with no battery

 

Amazon? I hope they're real ;-)

/tvb

 

On 7/29/2020 9:16 AM, Lester Veenstra wrote:

Tom:   Thanks for the help  ; Found and ordered some 3.7v  lithium 
non-rechargeable batteries on Amazon 

 

 

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[time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery

2020-07-29 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Hi Magnus:
  You are, of course right;  For a ham, the video board repair was trivial. I 
now have three working boards, one reinstalled in my HP-5372A.

So, of course, now I have the out of cal message, traceable to the RAM battery 
failure. I know this has been discussed a number of times before, but without a 
search function in The time-nuts Archives, I will take the easy way out, and 
ask you, or any one else willing to contribute.

The maintenance manual I have is an Adobe PDF image that was never OCRed, so it 
also is not searchable.  I have not been able to find the BATTERY. 

So where is it,  and are there any tricks to replacing it?

Once replaced, which set of alignment steps are needed to get the instrument 
back to a basic time and frequency functionality?

   Appreciate the help:

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell+1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions

2020-07-22 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Software Costas, see MatLab:
https://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexchange/16744-demodulating-a-bp
sk-using-costas-loop?s_tid=FX_rc2_behav


Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of paul
swed
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 1:26 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions

The KD2BD receiver is a costas loop.
So look at that and you have the answer. It does not decode the BPSK data
though. Thats quite a project all by itself.
Regards
Paul

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 10:42 AM Rodger via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Hey Ray,
>
> Paul and I have a nice piece of code that generates the WWVB BPSK bit
> stream
> using an Arduino and a ublox GPS module. (total cost under $30)  You could
> use this as a WWVB emulator while you're working on your code.  Sorry, I
> can't really help with your question about demodulating the WWVB BPSK but
> the Costas loop sounds like the way to go.  It has also been suggested
that
> a WWVB SDR wouldn't be too difficult to build and would open up lots of
> possibilities.  Unfortunately, I don't have a clue where to begin with
> that.
> Maybe somebody with some SDR experience can chime in.
>
> Re your comment about $30 BPSK clocks.  The only clock I'm aware of that
> uses the BPSK is the Lacrosse Ultratomic.  Are you aware of any others?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rodger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of
> rcb...@atcelectronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:52 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
>
> Paul, thanks for the suggestions. The top of the minute is a good idea.
> Since the first second is part of the sync pattern it will always be 0 and
> the phase would be 0. A differential opamp with one input from WWVB and
the
> other from the local source fed to the STM32 would tell if the signals
were
> in phase. A single gate inverter controlled by the STM32 could be used to
> invert the local source if necessary.
>
> I have worked with the Bluepill for the last year on a few small projects.
> The most complex one (which isn't really complex) was to control two
> stepper
> motors. I really like the boards and you can't beat the prices. I don't
use
> the bootloader so I have no experience with it.
>
> Dana, I looked at the Costas loop and had sort of ruled it out. I may take
> another look at it as I get further into the project. I will probably use
a
> 15.360 MHz oscillator and divide by 256 to get the 60 kHz local source.
> Once
> I get the front end working I will be able to start some "real" testing.
>
> Suggestions from others are welcome.
>
> Ray,
> AB7HE
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions

2020-07-22 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Ray:  If you will pardon the obvious, once digitized, in software, simply
square to remove the phase, or better still, a Costas Loop to sync demod.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of
rcb...@atcelectronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 7:37 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions

I want to decode the WWVB time information using the BPSK information
that is broadcast. I will use a STM32 to do the actual decoding of the
bit stream. This is just an exercise in "can I do it?" as I know I can
buy clocks for $30 that use the BPSK method. At one time you could buy
an IC that output the data stream but I believe there is nothing
currently available to do that.

I read the document "Enhanced WWVB Broadcast Format" by John Lowe from
NIST. One thing that is confusing to me is this paragraph: "Although the
phase representing the information in each symbol is shown to be
available before the amplitude in it transitions from VH to VL, it is
recommended that receivers extract it only from the high amplitude
portion of the symbol. This is not only because of the higher power
there, allowing for more robust phase demodulation, but also because the
low amplitude portion may be used in the future for additional (higher
rate) phase modulation."

How would you detect the phase had changed if you don't detect it when
it changes at 100 msec after the carrier level drops? After the signal
reverses phase wouldn't any reference you are using then be in lock with
the current phase of the signal after it has changed?

Or would you use a locally generated 60 kHz ultra stable signal as the
phase reference? If so, how would you keep your local source locked to
the 0 degree phase signal of WWVB and have it ignore the 180 degree
phase shift?

I have done a lot of searching and reading from various sources. But I
haven't really found a good explanation of the hardware that would be
used to detect the phase changes. Is there a block diagram somewhere
that would illustrate the steps needed to detect the change during the
high power portion of the WWVB signal?

I am going to put together a 60 kHz amplifier using a couple of
FET/transistors and a couple of high speed opamps. Then I can observe
the signal on my scope. Using the output of the amp I can then try to
figure out the best way to detect the phase changes. I can use my AWG to
supply the local 60 kHz signal source.

I have found two articles that give me some ideas. One is the Nov/Dec
QEX article by John, KD2BD and the other is an article titled WWV
de-PSK-r by Paul, WB8TSL. Paul is a member of this list.

Can someone make other suggestions that will get me pointed in the
correct direction?

Thanks,
Ray, AB7HE

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Re: [time-nuts] TICC TAPR and TimeLab

2020-07-06 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
John:

   Thanks for the detailed reply.  As I have said befire: No good deed goes 
unpunished. So another question.

How do I get Timelab to sit up and play nice?

 

I have the TICC cranking away with 10 MHz ref ans 1 PPS Chan A, both from the 
same locked GPSDO.

 



 

# TAPR TICC Timestamping Counter

# Copyright 2017 N8UR, K9TRG, NH6Z, WA8YWQ

 

#

# TICC Configuration: 

# Measurement Mode: Timestamp

# EEPROM Version: 7, Board Version: D

# Software Version: 20170108.1

# Board Serial Number: 60E9C41C

# Clock Speed: 1000

# Coarse tick (ps): 1

# Cal Periods: 20

# SyncMode: M

# Timeout: 0x05

# Time Dilation: 2500 (chA), 2500 (chB)

# FIXED_TIME2: 0 (chA), 0 (chB)

# FUDGE0: 0 (chA), 0 (chB)

#

# Type any character for config menu

# 

 

# timestamp (seconds)

1.305417041697 chA

2.305417036529 chA

3.305417052122 chA

4.305417047247 chA

5.305417042429 chA

6.305417037252 chA

 

-

And I have Timelab capturing this, nut after an hour the collection stops with 
“Insifficient data ..:

--



 



 

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home: +1-304-289-6057

US cell+1-304-790-9192 

Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 

 

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A and HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-07-06 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Magnus:
   The suspects were not hard to locate, leaking black goo.  I did measure the 
actual values of most of the larger electrolytics on the A17, for future 
reference.  On two boards, C414, 3300 mfd 35 vdc had to be replaced with new 
3300 mfd 50 vdc units.  One board had a good C414 with only in place a 4.7 mfd 
component. Replaced this also with 3300 mfd 50 vdc.

One board also needed C406, 450 mfd 50V replaced.

Now all three boards,on bench, with just 12Vdv applied produce a nice raster , 
intensity controllable with variable 0-5 vdc on video input.

Waiting on some female pins to arrive to make up a jumper cable from the mother 
board to an external A17/CRT for final test before reassembling the system.

Certainly not as exciting as bring Cesium Beam standards back to life, but I do 
like to keep the old boat anchors glowing, even if they only have a single 
vacuum tube. HI .
 
Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus 
Danielson
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2020 3:33 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A and HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

Hi Lester,

Good to hear your progress.

So, I gather that you managed to successfully repair it, and it was a
capacitor issue that I also had experienced.

Which caps did fail for you? I think I recall a 50 uF bipolar cap.

Cheers,
Magnus


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[time-nuts] HP-5372A and HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-07-05 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
The repair bench is up and successful on repairing the A17 video driver
boards. This involved replacing bad caps.

If anyone has a bad A17 board, particularly ones with obvious blown
(literally) caps, I would be happy to repair and bench test.

No cost other than send it to me with a prepaid, pre printed USPS return
label.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-07-04 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Ed:
   I see what appear to be good voltages from the mothor board into the A17
video driver board, that is Gnd, +12VDC, V Sync, HSync, and video
(Intensity)

Have  a possibly good A17 board, on the bench along with a CRT, removed from
instrument. 

Am testing voltages, waveforms, and Electrolytic Cap values for base line.
It functions with just +12V drive from bench supply.  I have a raster scan
that varies in intensity with voltage level (0-5v) applied to video input.


Have two more (not good) boards, with some known bad caps, that then can
then be repaired to the baseline.Will then try A17 and CRT on the 5372A
itself.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of ed
breya
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 4:40 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

Looking back at the OP, it appears the display is at least partially 
working, since there is some HV to light a dim spot on screen. I don't 
know what this display looks like inside, but imagine it's one or two 
small boards mounted open-frame on the CRT mechanical assembly, and 
connected to the instrument by one or two cable/connector assemblies. It 
should be possible to remove the whole thing onto a bench, and run it 
out in the open for better access.

The first thing to do is close inspection, looking for any obvious 
problems like puffy or leaky capacitors and burnt parts, loose/broken 
connections, and possibly fuses open. Power supply problems are the most 
likely culprits, so if you can figure out the internal power 
distribution at least somewhat, you can make some measurements. These 
kind of units likely run on a single bulk supply at a standard voltage 
like +12 (most likely since most magnetic raster CRTs use 12V heaters) 
or +24, and you should be able to find out from the schematics for the 
rest of the system.

Are the signals in the interconnections labeled? If so, the power should 
be identified, and also try to figure out what each signal is supposed 
to do. You already know the sync and video, etc, but also look for 
anything else like an enable or standby signal. What I'm getting at here 
is that depending on the overall supply architecture, when the 5372A is 
in standby (keeping the OCXO on) it could be that a lot of stuff is 
actually powered, but disabled. Related to this, is there a GPIB or 
other command that can turn off the display and lock out the front panel 
when in remote-only mode? If there is some form of on/off provision, a 
signal failure here could shut it down even if the rest is OK.

There are lots of possibilities, but it narrows it down a lot if you can 
proof the supplies and external controls.

Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-30 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Magnus;
   Thanks.  The one thing, I think I know, is that the defection coils seem to 
work as expect. That was from testing with a low voltage variable supply.

I have the TAPR TICC talking  to TimeLab,  as a free running ASCII source, but 
the TICC documentation is a bit cryptic.  I will address the "Nuts" with some 
specific questions soon.  First need to upload the new software. 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus 
Danielson
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 11:09 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

Hi Lester,

The 5372A excels in a field where we usually do not go, "high" speed
signals. It can time-tag events every 75 ns (in fast mode, 100 ns in
normal mode) if needed, and it can also do hardware accelerated
histograms. Valuable skills for some tasks. Some have the FFT option.

For normal time-nuts work, you can often use a TAPR TICC and TimeLab to
do most of "our" exercises much more convenient than using the 5372A. To
some degree tha 5372A is old and arcane, but it still find it's uses and
you still can use it as a 200 ps resolution counter, which beat a bunch
of other options. The TAPR TICC has however higher resolution and is
therefore very useful.

The CRT module should not be too challenging to an old tube-ham like
yourself. I had to replace a capacitor. Some diodes looked like they had
been running hot, but they where still operational. I also had
deflection problems, but once the retrace oscillator started operating
things fell into place.

73 de SA0MAD



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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-30 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Magnus:
 Thanks for the advice. As a long time ham (1962 Tech and commercial RTO 
tickets), when one of the rites of passage was taking discarded Vacuum tube TVs 
and turning them into CW transmitters, the dangers of HV are well known.  
Particularly what lurks under that anode feed through clip on the crt envelope. 
 Or learning not to grab the plate cap on a 6146 when using a cathode keyed 
rig.. (Only did that once)   

On my 5372A, both horiz and Vert deflection drives do not look like what I 
would expect, particularly with the coils disconnected.

That is why I am hoping the 5371 (arriving today) may give me a starting point.

As an aside, does the 5372A offer any direct measurement capability that the 
TAPR TICC does not (with sufficient software post processing of course)

I would like to get it going, as a point of personal pride ( I love cheeep, not 
working, for parts only deals), but having a TICC, should I let this project 
simmer on a low burner?

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell+1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus 
Danielson
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 5:24 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

Hi Lester,

I had this problem with the 5372A at work. As others have noted,
documentation of the CRT unit is for sure leaving a lot to wish for when
comparing how well the rest of the unit is documented. We could however
fairly quickly see the problem, and it turned out that a capacitor had
let out it's grey smoke. So, we replaced it and it fired up and worked.
Took care of a little trimming and it went out the lab again. The CRT
unit is fairly standard as for monochrome CRT goes, so nothing very
advanced. I usually do not service CRTs but me and my colleague did not
found it very challenging in the end. One just needs to be careful with
voltages. It was a fair bit of unscrewing to "get to it" as I recall, so
both top and bottom lid had to be popped, as well as the side lid which
hides screws.

Besides the CMOS-battery, the CRT failure is the only other service I've
had to do to the 5372As.

The "GUI" of the 5372A leaves a few things to desire, but it has it's
good points too. The GPIB command structure may be daunting at first,
but if one really reads the programming manual, your really get to learn
how everything is processed from the hardware bits, because the
preferred interface just dumps one of a number of subsets of data
register read-outs, and all the processing one needs to do it explained
in detail. It also becomes apparent that a sneak-feature is that 100 ps
resolution may be possible to support by replacing the interpolator boards.

If I had the time, I would do a modern hardware to grab data on the
fast-port connectors and dump them out over Ethernet. This would be the
way to keep the counter operating continuously with fast data gathering,
but without being limited to the 8192 samples long memory, which when
full being processed by the 68k processor before another run could be
triggered. Offboarding that the existing CPU would be used to set the
instrument up, and then all the data is gathered and processed in
somewhat more modern hardware.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-06-28 16:22, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote:
>  
>
> TimeNuts:   
>
>  
>
> I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this  (A17)
> is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
> around it to see if the defect is findable.
>
>  
>
> Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
>
> I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
> board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
> expect.
>
>  
>
> Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
> no horizontal line.
>
> With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
> in both axis with low voltage DC applied. 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> However, it occurs to me; Does  anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
> instrument without the GUI user interface?
>
> I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
> measurements.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
>
> les...@veenstras.com
>
>  
>
> 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
>
> Keyser WV 26726
>
>  
>
> GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
>
> GPS: 39.33682

Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-29 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Thanks Don, but I suspect we both have the same manual.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of DON
MURRAY via time-nuts
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 9:03 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: DON MURRAY
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.


I'll check my 5372A manual to see if 
I can be of any help.


Don
W4WJ

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 ed breya  wrote:
I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the 
manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where 
HP still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The 
exception sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as 
a single component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the 
guts, as it's been a lot of years since I saw the inside.

Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually 
HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around 
somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.

Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-29 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Ed:   Like many cards and parts in this unit; Not field repairable, so no
schematics or parts list. I do have the "full" maintenance manual.

It appears to be a OEM Taiwan "Part", the CRT and driver board.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
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-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of ed
breya
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 5:25 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the 
manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where 
HP still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The 
exception sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as 
a single component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the 
guts, as it's been a lot of years since I saw the inside.

Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually 
HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around 
somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.

Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-29 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Dave:I have a "not working, parts only" unit coming.
I will see if A17 is working on that unit.
If I get one working, I think I can signal trace to the problem unit, using the 
good one as reference

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell+1-304-790-9192 
Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of VE7HR
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 9:01 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

Lester,
I think looking at the parts list in the Service manual from Artek it’s a 
bought out all in one unit.  If I recall the BOM has one line item.  
Have you checked with Walter at Sphere? He has the next PN in the sequence 
which is a Sony Color display.  Or check with Newscope for a LCD replacement.  

My new to me 5372A has a bright screen but I noticed it glitched a few times 
yesterday.  The size changed for an instant a couple of time but other wise is 
working.  


Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:50 PM, ed breya  wrote:
> 
> I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the 
> manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where HP 
> still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The exception 
> sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as a single 
> component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the guts, as it's 
> been a lot of years since I saw the inside.
> 
> Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually 
> HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around 
> somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.
> 
> Ed
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-28 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Steve:
I probably will be reduced to stealing the two assemblies from a 71 to go 
into the 72

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com
 



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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-28 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
Yes, but no schematics visible.

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave 
Miller
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 11:31 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

Lester,
All I can find is the PN 2090-0209 for the whole assembly.
Dave
VE7HR




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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-28 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
"You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT",
but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it
does work."

Interesting, I will look into it as a way to get a starting point, atleast
for initial tests and diadnostics
---
"If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you
will
need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself.:

Well in the world of Linux/Python, processing, math and plotting, these are
not really big difficulties 


Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
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US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
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-Original Message-
From: Poul-Henning Kamp [mailto:p...@phk.freebsd.dk] 
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: Lester Veenstra
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

----
Lester Veenstra via time-nuts writes:

I assume you mean HP-5372A and not 5732A ?

> I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
> board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
> expect.

The 5372 uses a weird video-format, 19KHz horizontal and 60Hz vertical,
but it might be possible to find a LCD panel which can do that.

There are two bits of video, "half intensity" and "full intensity", so
a color panel would be required.

> However, it occurs to me; Does  anyone have HPIB code that allows use of
the
> instrument without the GUI user interface?

I've never quite gotten the hang of HPIB with the HP5372, the HPIB
is very geared towards moving the raw binary data, and not very
much towards "remote front-panel".

You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT",
but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it
does work.

If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you
will
need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


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Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-28 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
I assume you mean HP-5372A---Yes, of course. Mind not fully in control

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
les...@veenstras.com

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
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[time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.

2020-06-28 Thread Lester Veenstra via time-nuts 
 

TimeNuts:   

 

I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this  (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.

 

Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?

I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.

 

Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.

With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied. 

 

 

However, it occurs to me; Does  anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?

I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
measurements.

 

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home: +1-304-289-6057

US cell+1-304-790-9192 

Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898 

 

 

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