[time-nuts] Re: Schatz Ships clock

[William H. Fite]

Hold on to your hats, gentlemen. I'm about to launch hip-deep into heresy.

I think Peter's advice is about right; just replace the movement, don't try
to repair it. My question is, why would you not simply replace the
electronic movement with a mechanical movement as was intended in the
original design of the clock?

Over the years, fifteen or twenty Schatz marine clocks have passed through
my hands, most mechanical, some electronic. I have not paid a great deal of
attention to the electronic movements except to remove them and toss them
in the trash because their reliability is not good. Some, apparently, were
manufactured in Germany or Switzerland but others are Chinese in origin. In
the latter case, I very much doubt you will ever find schematics.

As I'm sure you know, Schatz clocks are mid-market consumer-grade
instruments, not nearly as good as Chelsea, for example, but lots better
than the eBay knockoffs. They were designed from the ground up to use
mechanical movements. Putting an electronic movement into a clock intended
by its original designers to be mechanical in nature, is like buying a
battery and motor from Tesla and putting it into a 1928 Pierce Arrow. Will
it run? Yes, and very fast, but it will not be what the designers intended.

Replacing an electronic movement with a mechanical movement requires a
little bit of effort but it is certainly doable. You will need to find a
movement that fits in the case and you will have to replace the face with
one that has arbor hole(s) of the correct size and in the right location
for the movement. It is a fun Saturday project.

Or just install a new electronic movement in the case and call it good.

Or, unless the one your friend has now has sentimental value, consign it to
outer darkness and pick up a Royal Mariner off eBay. They're not very
expensive.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Bill


On Tuesday, May 18, 2021, Peter Torry via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Joe,
>
> If its a hardware fault it can usually be repaired but if its software
> then that could be a show stopper. If you have the required test equipment
> and some expertise then trace the signal from the antenna ( usually a cross
> field) through the crystal filter to the processor.
>
> I would thing that the best way would be tp open up the clcok and find the
> movement type and manufacturer and get a new one from somewhere like
> Timesavers - I assume that you are in the US.
>
> Good luck
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> On 18/05/2021 19:26, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>
>> A friend of mine has an old round brass Schatz Ships clock (looks
>> like a Royal Mariner clock, but is not) with a radio-clock quartz
>> mechanism.  This clock is quite dead, but one would think it can be
>> repaired.  When I google on this clock, I don't find repair details
>> and schematics, I see only offers to sell me a new clock, or nw clock
>> innards.  If the problem is electronic, I'll probably be the one
>> doing the repairs.
>>
>> So, my question is if these old clocks can in fact be repaired, or is
>> the only option to polish the brass and wood, but replace the innards?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe
>> send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
>>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send
> an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an 
email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Congratulations to David Allan

[William H. Fite]

Heartiest congratulations, David. A very meaningful recognition of your
work.

On Thursday, December 10, 2020, Francis Grosz  wrote:

> Folks,
>
>  David Allan has just been named an IEEE Fellow as a member of the
> Fellows Class
> of 2021.  The citation is, "for contributions to timing systems, and
> precision clocks".  This
> is a significant honor and we should all congratulate him on this
> recognition.
>
>Francis Grosz
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] 81, not quite a random number

[William H. Fite]

When my son was 10 years old, he suddenly came running down the stairs
madly clanging an old dinner bell.

"What in the world are you doing?"

"Quick, dad, look at the clock"

I looked.

"Now think about the calendar."

I thought. And thought. Then it dawned on me.

The date and time was 12:34 5/6/78.



On Saturday, June 20, 2020, Mark Goldberg  wrote:

> Similar sense of humor. See if the attachment comes through.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:48 AM Bob Fleming  wrote:
> >
> > Divide by 81 has resulted in a great conversation but I could not help
> but notice a potential attempt at humor.
> > 10Mhz divided by 81 is 123456.7901 which I find to be amusing.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] VAPORware Parts and pulse stretching circuits

[William H. Fite]

Subject line edited for those of us who have OCD

On Saturday, April 25, 2020, John Moran, Scawby Design <
j...@scawbydesign.co.uk> wrote:

> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:19:24 + (UTC)
> Perry Sandeen said -
>
>
> "I believe It is a bit disingenuous to say: *It is a small-pitch device
> but not impossible to solder*.
>
> Really?? If you've dropped $750 to $1K for a stereo microscope and other
> specialized soldering equipment then you can probably do it without too
> much difficulty.? Or some may access to such specialized equipment.
>
> But for us *Po Folks* hobbyist we have to stick with older but larger
> parts."
>
>
>
> Just to put the record straight, I am a 72-year-old retired electronics
> specialist who uses a 50-year-old Weller soldering iron and a magnified
> (x3.5) bench light to solder 64pin 0.5mm pitch MSP430 microprocessors by
> hand. As I said - "... not impossible to solder."
>
>
>
> Like you Perry, I am a *Po Folk* :)
>
>
>
> Kind regards - John
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] New Subscriber, DIY GPSDO project (yes, another one)

[William H. Fite]

I appreciate this discussion. I'm a statistician, not an engineer. I teach
linear quadratic estimation, of which Kalman is the archetypal example, as
a mathematical exercise without dealing more than very superficially with
practical applications. I've been following these posts with interest.
Thanks, gentlemen.


On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:

> 
> In message , Magnus
> Danielson
>  writes:
>
> >It should be said that Kalman is kind of optimum for "white" noise
> >(what-ever that is), but we are far from white noise. Variants of Kalman
> >filters use noise-colour compensation of some sort, and that kind of
> >solves some of the issues. It does not fit the problem perfectly. This
> >is why time-scale algorithms is not directly Kalman filters but only
> >Kalman-esque to some degree.
>
> And that line of thought brings us to the stochastic-ish model which
> timing.com used on three 5071A and (three?) GPS's for the LORAN-C
> modernization.
>
> It's a very interesting paper and a very good idea, which works
> becuase their frequency source "bottoms out" in the MVAR plot:
> Frequency drift would mean you too many degrees of freedom.
>
> The only chance I see of doing something like that, would be a Rb
> where the lowest point on the MVAR plot is very close to 12h, or
> even better 24h, where the GPS is similarly optimal.
>
> Que the HP5065A...
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Yukon to make Daylight Saving Time permanent after final time change Sunday

[William H. Fite]

Temps atomique international toujours et partout!



On Friday, March 6, 2020, Brian Lloyd  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:12 AM David Van Horn via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > GMT EVERYWHERE!!
> >
>
> TAI everywhere!
>
> --
>
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> 706 Flightline
> Spring Branch, TX 78070
> br...@lloyd.aero
> +1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation

[William H. Fite via time-nuts]

Precisely, Dick!

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020, Richard Solomon via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> The Ancient Romans had another,
> not so nice, definition.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm confused:
> >
> > I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term
> > 'decimation'.
> >
> > One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard
> > the others without regard to possible aliasing".
> >
> > The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter
> > as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing".
> >
> > Which is it?  And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all
> > be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to
> > the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > DanaK8YUM
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] HP5071A with bad tube.... can I get one used?

[William H. Fite]

Brooklyn Dodgers here.

It has been caesium since I was an undergrad, at which time there were
dinosaurs grazing in the quad.




On Friday, October 25, 2019, Richard Solomon  wrote:

> When did the spelling of Cesium
> change ? As far back as I can
> remember (High School chemistry,
> easier then, we only had 52
> elements), it was spelled Cesium.
>
> But then, they are still the San
> Diego Chargers to me.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 11:00 PM Tom Knox  wrote:
>
> > The Latin form “caesium” is the internationally recognized legal
> spelling.
> > The common form “cesium” may still be found in older Symmetricom user’s
> > manuals and publications. The caesium inside any of the devices is
> > contained in a UN certified stainless steel cylinder. This cylinder meets
> > all of the
> > requirements for dangerous goods “containers” or “packages” for both
> > international and U.S. domestic shipments. The instructions in this
> document
> > refer to the labeling required on the outside of the carton or box that
> is
> > used to enclose the caesium device.
> > 1. All U.S. domestic (only) shipments must use and comply with all the
> > requirements of the DOT-SP11401 exemption. The document may be
> > downloaded from the DOT web site at
> > http://hazmat.dot.gov/sp_app/special_permits/docs/11000/E11401.pdf. All
> > Symmetricom customers who are
> > reshipping the Symmetricom device do not need to be listed as a grantee
> > and may use Symmetricom’s exemption (see Par. 8a of DOT-SP11401).
> > The prohibited “modifications or changes” to the “package” referenced in
> > Par. 8a refers to the stainless steel caesium beam tube cylinder, and not
> > any
> > other external packaging (see Par. 7a). Follow normal shipping and
> > handling practice and the following instructions.
> > 2. Attach a copy of DOT-SP11401 to the outer box or container. The
> > document may be legibly reduced, folded, placed in a clear plastic pouch
> and
> > attached outside the package (see Par. 10). The title page should be
> > readable through the pouch. Staple a copy of DOT-SP11401 to the shipping
> > invoice so that the copy attached to the package will not be disturbed.
> Do
> > not include this instruction sheet that you are now reading. Do not use
> > the preprinted, bar-coded dangerous goods label offered by the shipper,
> > which, if scanned, would incorrectly route the package to non-passenger
> > aircraft.
> > 3. Mark the outside of the package "DOT-SP11401 CAESIUM UN 1407". A
> > downloadable template is available from
> > http://www.symmttm.com/5071A/Shipping.
> > 4. Limit to five units the maximum number of caesium devices in each
> > shipment (par. 7b).
> > 5. Comply with the training requirement (Par. 11) for “Hazmat employee”
> > under 49CFR 172.704(a)(2) function-specific training (i). Explanation:
> > This requirement is fully met if the person handling the transportation
> of
> > the caesium device has read, understood and followed these
> > instructions and DOT-SP11401.
> > 6. Additional explanation: The following requirements of the IATA-DG
> > regulations are waived by DOT-SP11401., i.e. not required for U.S.
> > domestic only shipments. Paragraph numbers (Par. #) refer to the
> > paragraphs in DOT-SP11401:
> > LABELING “Dangerous When Wet” and “Danger – Do not load in passenger
> > aircraft” are waived (Par. 4).
> > PLACARDING “Dangerous When Wet” on the carrier’s vehicle is waived (Par.
> > 4).
> > AUTHORIZED PACKAGING or UN (United Nations) certified packaging is waived
> > (Par. 4). The stainless steel caesium beam tube cylinder
> > comprises the authorized or prescribed packaging. No other packaging over
> > the apparatus is required for compliance (Par. 4 and 7a).
> > PASSENGER AIRCRAFT is added as an authorized mode of shipment (Par. 9).
> > Note: FedEx recognizes DOT exemptions. Some carriers,
> > such as UPS and DHL may not recognize DOT exemptions. Check first with
> the
> > carrier when using the exemption.
> > International Shipping
> > 1. All overseas and international shipments must comply with the
> > requirements of the UN/IATA dangerous goods regulations. Visit
> > http://www.iata.org/cargo/dg/index.htm.
> > 2. Mark the outside of the package: “Inner packages comply with
> prescribed
> > specifications CAESIUM UN1407 0.009kg”, the UN package
> > certification number, the “Dangerous when wet” and “Do not load in
> > passenger aircraft” stickers. A downloadable template is available from
> the
> > Symmetricom web sites noted above. Any suitable container that is
> > reasonably strong for normal shipping and handling may be used. No other
> UN
> > certified container is required by the regulation. Visit the Symmetricom
> > web sites for more information.
> > 3. Attach a Dangerous Goods Declaration (authorized, red-stripe bordered
> > document) and fill identification as follows: Proper name CAESIUM;
> > Class 4.3; UN No. UN1407; Packing group I; Quantity and type of packing:
> 1
> > 

Re: [time-nuts] DC distribution

[William H. Fite]

A solid crimp is, I believe, generally held to be more than a solder joint
but this is in no way specific to audio cables.



On Saturday, October 5, 2019, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/4/19 1:41 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> 
>> In message <5d979ac0.80...@rogers.com>, MLewis writes:
>>
>> With audio signals, a soldered crimp is one of the worst possible
>>> connections.
>>>
>>
>> Dabbling in audio-homoepathy are we ?
>>
>> No, don't bother responding unless you have a reference to peer-reviewed
>> scientific documentation for you claim.
>>
>>
>
> well..
> https://nepp.nasa.gov/files/27631/NSTD87394A.pdf
>
> doesn't give why, and doesn't explicitly say "don't crimp and solder" but
> does basically say "crimp crimp connectors and solder solder connectors"
>
> TE "Crimp Theory Fundamentals; Advanced" - explanation of what makes a
> good crimp, doesn't discuss solder
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAO9eCS65jw
>
> There are actually splices designed to be crimped and soldered - but I
> suspect their applicability is for specific applications.
>
>
> On Monday, I will try to find one of the connector reliability people for
> some references.  One challenge is that these practices ("don't solder
> crimped connectors") have been around for a long time (at least 70 years),
> so there may not be recent published information on it. (recent papers I
> found on solder joint reliability are all about PWB connections - esp BGA,
> CGA, etc.)
>
> And, to be honest, materials have changed.
>
> There is *great* resistance to changing any assembly and workmanship
> standard - nobody wants to be the person who says "we don't need to do
> *that* anymore" and then a disaster happens, and one of the potential
> causes is "you didn't do *that*"
>
> It is entirely possible that the original rationale and explanation is no
> longer valid.
>
> There is no question that in a vibration environment, solder is deprecated
> (it's hard, brittle, work hardens, etc), not to mention all the issues with
> RoHS.  That said they do use solder joints in high reliability systems -
> just with attention to the support of the wire.
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14686996.2019.1640072
> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100029736.pdf
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Talking Clock

[William H. Fite]

"Alexa, what time is it?"


On Monday, September 30, 2019, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Based on only dimly remembered conversations long long ago:
>
> Getting all the “message fragments” so they sound natural and not choppy
> is
> not quite as easy as it seems at first. It’s by not quite rocket science,
> but there
> is more fiddling involved than one might think.
>
> One “solution” is to use fewer fragments and record larger portions of the
> message.
> Back in the day, storage limited your ability to record every message
> “full up”.
>
> Assuming you record the “at the stroke the time will be” only once, the
> rest is
> under 3 seconds of audio. At maybe 16 bits / 32K sps. (yes that’s
> overkill). this comes
> up just under 200 K bytes. Recording the full time message for every
> minute of the
> day would be less than 270 megabytes.
>
> That’s a pretty small flash drive ….
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 30, 2019, at 4:00 PM, Neville Michie  wrote:
> >
> > Here in Australia we are suffering the loss
> > of one of the significant developments in accurate time keeping and
> dissemination.
> > The talking clock, built in England, with sound tracks on rotating glass
> disks,
> > has been on the Australian telephone system for more than half a century.
> > The system was timed by quartz oscillators, synchronised to the local
> observatory time.
> > Now in spite of the trivial cost of maintaining the system it has been
> removed by
> > the money-hungry telco which took over the government run telephone
> system.
> > Now it occurs to me that the sound tracks occupy a very small digital
> space, and
> > with modern flash drives and a little logic the talking clock could be
> driven by
> > any time nut's disciplined time source.
> > So is there a time nut who could design a voice output that we could all
> use?
> >
> > “At the third stroke the time will be…”
> >
> > cheers,
> > Neville Michie
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Keysight N5511A - phase noise measurements down to theoretical-177 dBm/Hz

[William H. Fite]

The thought of what it must cost is frightening. A colleague just acquired
a *used* 5503 for a bit under $50K.


On Friday, August 16, 2019, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
wrote:

> OMG, you need two PSG's AND a PXI cage with lots of cards.
> Another doomsday machine (it replaces the E5505A which I
> have a lot of experience with, and THAT was a doomsday
> machine for sure.  The blurb calls it the "gold standard".
> Right, only when it comes to price).  It even says it is designed
> for Power Users at the high-end of the market.
> Power Users with deep pockets.
>
> My guess is well into 6 figure$.
>
> (Note:  I am a Keysight retiree).
>
> BTW, I don't know what -177 dBm/Hz has to do with phase noise.
> The relevant units are dBc/Hz as any time-nut knows.
>
> Rick
>
> On 8/15/2019 3:42 PM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
>
>> This seems quite an impressive bit of kit, which in the standard
>> configuration boasts
>>
>> RF INPUT 50 kHz to 40 GHz
>> OFFSET  10 mHz to 160 MHz
>> NOISE FLOOR kT
>>
>> https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2998258-pn-N5511A/phase-noise
>> -test-system-50-khz-to-40-ghz
>>
>> Despite setting my country to the USA, where it is usually possible to get
>> prices.  Maybe its a case of “if you have to ask the price, then you can’t
>> afford it”
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] The forbidden question

[William H. Fite]

That's an excellent point, Bob. We have friends who have friends who are
involved with the long baseline interferometry (LIGO) lab in Louisiana. I
will inquire and, if they have any relevant information I will pass it
along to you.

Thanks for your reply.

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> One very basic thing that precision clocks allow you to dig deeper into is
> gravity. A gravity wave passing between two clocks should show up as a
> time
> ripple.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 4, 2019, at 12:43 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:
> >
> > Warning: Potentially heretical material below
> >
> > Let me begin by saying I am neither an engineer nor a time expert. My PhD
> > is in statistics and my spouse's PhD is in theoretical computer science,
> > working on quantum computer algorithms. Neither of us claims any special
> > expertise when it comes to time and frequency measurement. I am a radio
> > amateur and I came to this group following a recommendation from John
> > Ackermann, who very kindly answered some questions for me regarding the
> > amateur radio frequency measurement test. I thoroughly enjoy the dialogue
> > here and I think that I have learned a bit about the subject though, by
> any
> > standard of this group, I am the rankest newbie.
> >
> > My question is a serious one. I am not trolling, nor am I trying to begin
> > an argument, nor am I implying criticism of anyone or any endeavor, here
> or
> > elsewhere.
> >
> > What useful purpose, if any, is served by the continuing evolution of
> > clocks like NIST-F2 that now achieve accuracy along the lines of one
> second
> > per many billions of years? Are there tangible benefits to be had? I
> > consulted an astronomer friend who advised that the current generation of
> > clocks would allow a suitable space vehicle to plant a probe squarely in
> > the middle of Alpha Centauri, if rocket technology existed to do so. We
> > have many friends in the academic computer science community who say that
> > neither conventional nor quantum computers that exist at present or in
> the
> > projectable future require anything like this kind of accuracy.
> >
> > By no means am I questioning the value of new knowledge qua knowledge.
> For
> > theoreticians like the one to whom I am wedded, no justification is
> needed
> > beyond the words of mountaineer George Mallory: "Because it's there." I'm
> > sure that engineers and scientists in the field of time and frequency
> > measurement feel the same. From that perspective, there need be no
> > rationalization beyond the desire to do it just a little better than it
> has
> > been done.
> >
> > Please don't lecture me about the value of science for its own sake. My
> > career has largely been built on that principle. I'd like to be informed
> as
> > to present or anticipated applications that require such accuracy. Are we
> > developing these incredible devices just to push boundaries? Or do they
> > have some practical purpose?
> >
> > I'll appreciate thoughtful answers. Dismissive and/or snarky replies will
> > be deleted unread.
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] The forbidden question

[William H. Fite]

I appreciate your point, one that I have emphasized to my graduate students
many times over 30 years of teaching. Of course you are entirely correct.

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019, Kevin Birth  wrote:

> When a clock is represented as only losing a second in billions of years
> that is a statement packaged in a rhetorical fashion to impress readers.
> Another way to think about the statement of such long-term accuracy is
> that it is a improvement in reducing uncertainty about accuracy over time,
> and that includes uncertainty in the short term at high levels of
> precision.
>
> Consider that the SI second is 9,192,631,770 transitions of cesium, but
> that when the number of cesium transitions per second was originally
> measured, there was a plus or minus of 20 transitions.  That means in
> first generation cesium clocks there was a lurking uncertainty in accuracy
> of at least plus or minus 20 not taking into account all the other factors
> that can influence a clock¹s performance.  Now if a clock¹s time was
> uncertain by just a few transitions, then that could produce a 1 second
> loss of accuracy over billions of years.
>
> So one way to look at the claim that a clock is accurate for billions of
> years (although NIST-F2 is claimed for hundreds of millions of years) is
> that it is a clock that has reduced the uncertainty in the short run,
> making it not only precise, but accurate at high levels of precision over
> short periods of time.
>
> Now that we live in a world where big data analysis (including data feeds
> on Wall St) have ns levels of precision, reducing uncertainty in accuracy
> in primary standards is highly valued.


How precise does it need to be?

>
> Or, at least that is how I understand things.


Thanks for your reply.

>
> Best,
>
> Kevin
>
>
> --
> Kevin K. Birth, Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> Queens College, City University of New York
> 65-30 Kissena Boulevard
> Flushing, NY 11367
> telephone: 718/997-5518
>
> "Tempus est mundi instabilis motus, rerumque labentium c/ursus." --Hrabanus


To which I reply:  Tunc temporis omnia consumit omnia iubeo.



> We may live longer but we may be subject to peculiar contagion and
> spiritual torpor or illiteracies of the imagination" --Wilson Harris
>
>
>
>
> On 6/4/19, 12:43 PM, "time-nuts on behalf of William H. Fite"
>  wrote:
>
> >EXTERNAL EMAIL: please report suspicious content to the ITS Help Desk.
> >
> >
> >Warning: Potentially heretical material below
> >
> >Let me begin by saying I am neither an engineer nor a time expert. My PhD
> >is in statistics and my spouse's PhD is in theoretical computer science,
> >working on quantum computer algorithms. Neither of us claims any special
> >expertise when it comes to time and frequency measurement. I am a radio
> >amateur and I came to this group following a recommendation from John
> >Ackermann, who very kindly answered some questions for me regarding the
> >amateur radio frequency measurement test. I thoroughly enjoy the dialogue
> >here and I think that I have learned a bit about the subject though, by
> >any
> >standard of this group, I am the rankest newbie.
> >
> >My question is a serious one. I am not trolling, nor am I trying to begin
> >an argument, nor am I implying criticism of anyone or any endeavor, here
> >or
> >elsewhere.
> >
> >What useful purpose, if any, is served by the continuing evolution of
> >clocks like NIST-F2 that now achieve accuracy along the lines of one
> >second
> >per many billions of years? Are there tangible benefits to be had? I
> >consulted an astronomer friend who advised that the current generation of
> >clocks would allow a suitable space vehicle to plant a probe squarely in
> >the middle of Alpha Centauri, if rocket technology existed to do so. We
> >have many friends in the academic computer science community who say that
> >neither conventional nor quantum computers that exist at present or in the
> >projectable future require anything like this kind of accuracy.
> >
> >By no means am I questioning the value of new knowledge qua knowledge. For
> >theoreticians like the one to whom I am wedded, no justification is needed
> >beyond the words of mountaineer George Mallory: "Because it's there." I'm
> >sure that engineers and scientists in the field of time and frequency
> >measurement feel the same. From that perspective, there need be no
> >rationalization beyond the desire to do it just a little better than it
> >has
> >been done.
> >
> >Please don't lecture me about the value of science for its own sake. My
&

[time-nuts] The forbidden question

[William H. Fite]

In answer to your question, there are practical things that can be done
with an optical or electron microscope that cannot be done with unaided
vision. What I am asking is not the validity of the quest for better timing
but rather its tangible applications. Note that I did not say or even
suggest that there are no tangible applications, I'm simply interested in
what they are. I thought I made that fairly clear.

As to your analogy, it is valid only if and to the extent that NIST-F2 has
practical applications. That is what I am asking about.

No,  there is no logic issue in my statement but I will grant that it is a
bit imprecise. (Donning pedant hat) "...will be deleted as soon as I have
read enough to conclude that it is dismissive or snarky."

If you have an answer to my question, I will be very happy to receive it.

Best regards



On Tuesday, June 4, 2019, Bill Beam  wrote:

> You will have an answer if you can answer the question:
> "Why is an optical microscope needed when unaided vision is good enough?"
> My PhD is in high energy particle physics ca 1966.
> This is not intended to be 'Dismissive and/or snarky'.
> Your statement "Dismissive and/or snarky replies will be deleted unread."
> has a logic issue
> Regards (73)
>
> On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:43:04 -0400, William H. Fite wrote:
>
> >Warning: Potentially heretical material below
>
> >Let me begin by saying I am neither an engineer nor a time expert. My PhD
> >is in statistics and my spouse's PhD is in theoretical computer science,
> >working on quantum computer algorithms. Neither of us claims any special
> >expertise when it comes to time and frequency measurement. I am a radio
> >amateur and I came to this group following a recommendation from John
> >Ackermann, who very kindly answered some questions for me regarding the
> >amateur radio frequency measurement test. I thoroughly enjoy the dialogue
> >here and I think that I have learned a bit about the subject though, by
> any
> >standard of this group, I am the rankest newbie.
>
> >My question is a serious one. I am not trolling, nor am I trying to begin
> >an argument, nor am I implying criticism of anyone or any endeavor, here
> or
> >elsewhere.
>
> >What useful purpose, if any, is served by the continuing evolution of
> >clocks like NIST-F2 that now achieve accuracy along the lines of one
> second
> >per many billions of years? Are there tangible benefits to be had? I
> >consulted an astronomer friend who advised that the current generation of
> >clocks would allow a suitable space vehicle to plant a probe squarely in
> >the middle of Alpha Centauri, if rocket technology existed to do so. We
> >have many friends in the academic computer science community who say that
> >neither conventional nor quantum computers that exist at present or in the
> >projectable future require anything like this kind of accuracy.
>
> >By no means am I questioning the value of new knowledge qua knowledge. For
> >theoreticians like the one to whom I am wedded, no justification is needed
> >beyond the words of mountaineer George Mallory: "Because it's there." I'm
> >sure that engineers and scientists in the field of time and frequency
> >measurement feel the same. From that perspective, there need be no
> >rationalization beyond the desire to do it just a little better than it
> has
> >been done.
>
> >Please don't lecture me about the value of science for its own sake. My
> >career has largely been built on that principle. I'd like to be informed
> as
> >to present or anticipated applications that require such accuracy. Are we
> >developing these incredible devices just to push boundaries? Or do they
> >have some practical purpose?
>
> >I'll appreciate thoughtful answers. Dismissive and/or snarky replies will
> >be deleted unread.
>
> >Thanks for your help.
>
>
> >--
> >Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
> >___
> >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> Bill Beam
> NL7F
>
>
>
>

-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

[time-nuts] The forbidden question

[William H. Fite]

Warning: Potentially heretical material below

Let me begin by saying I am neither an engineer nor a time expert. My PhD
is in statistics and my spouse's PhD is in theoretical computer science,
working on quantum computer algorithms. Neither of us claims any special
expertise when it comes to time and frequency measurement. I am a radio
amateur and I came to this group following a recommendation from John
Ackermann, who very kindly answered some questions for me regarding the
amateur radio frequency measurement test. I thoroughly enjoy the dialogue
here and I think that I have learned a bit about the subject though, by any
standard of this group, I am the rankest newbie.

My question is a serious one. I am not trolling, nor am I trying to begin
an argument, nor am I implying criticism of anyone or any endeavor, here or
elsewhere.

What useful purpose, if any, is served by the continuing evolution of
clocks like NIST-F2 that now achieve accuracy along the lines of one second
per many billions of years? Are there tangible benefits to be had? I
consulted an astronomer friend who advised that the current generation of
clocks would allow a suitable space vehicle to plant a probe squarely in
the middle of Alpha Centauri, if rocket technology existed to do so. We
have many friends in the academic computer science community who say that
neither conventional nor quantum computers that exist at present or in the
projectable future require anything like this kind of accuracy.

By no means am I questioning the value of new knowledge qua knowledge. For
theoreticians like the one to whom I am wedded, no justification is needed
beyond the words of mountaineer George Mallory: "Because it's there." I'm
sure that engineers and scientists in the field of time and frequency
measurement feel the same. From that perspective, there need be no
rationalization beyond the desire to do it just a little better than it has
been done.

Please don't lecture me about the value of science for its own sake. My
career has largely been built on that principle. I'd like to be informed as
to present or anticipated applications that require such accuracy. Are we
developing these incredible devices just to push boundaries? Or do they
have some practical purpose?

I'll appreciate thoughtful answers. Dismissive and/or snarky replies will
be deleted unread.

Thanks for your help.


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium Cells for Sale ?!

[William H. Fite]

And it drives SpaceX nuts. Likely the other privates, as well. SpaceX
recovers a faulty part or system, analyzes the problem, resolves it, tests
the revision, and is ready to go. "No no," says NASA. "First we must have a
workgroup to define the problem. Then we must have a workgroup to identify
possible solutions with a subgroup to analyze the resource requirements for
each. Then there is a workgroup to analyze the findings of the previous
workgroups and offer recommendations to senior leadership. Leadership
checks to assure that the distribution of suppliers and contactors to
implement the solution provides sufficient lagniappe to key congressional
districts. The chosen solution is then referred to a feasibility workgroup.
Its findings are sent to a materiel acquisitions workgroup that ultimately
lets bids for the required engineering, parts, and labor. An oversight
workgroup is empanelled to coordinate the fix, overseen by a quality
assurance workgroup. A validation and certification workgroup takes a final
look, 113 concurring agency approvals are solicited, and the fix is
declared ready to go back to space."



On Monday, May 6, 2019, jimlux  wrote:

> On 5/6/19 7:04 PM, William H. Fite wrote:
>
>> Mother of God, really?
>>
>> I had a friend, now of blessed memory, who was lead communications
>> engineer
>> for Grumman on the lunar lander. He used to boggle our minds with stories
>> of the truly absurd lengths that NASA made them go to have hardware "space
>> certified."
>>
>>
>
> This is changing..
>
> Recognize that for NASA, they're usually building just one (or maybe 2
> flight units plus a spare, if you're on a big budget Class A mission with
> redundant strings). So they don't think in terms of MIL-HDBK-217 kinds of
> reliability calculations of statistics.. It's more a matter of "what could
> go wrong, and how can we prevent that".
>
> So you wind up with a lot of requirements and tests that may not be
> statistically justifiable. They tend to require large design margins (since
> you're building just one, the unit test campaign is both verifying the
> design AND doing acceptance testing).
>
> For instance, some years ago voltage/frequency stress testing was popular
> - run it at a variety of frequencies and voltages, well beyond the design
> range, and show that you've got margin.
>
> There's also a "if it doesn't meet the datasheet specs under all test
> conditions, it is deemed to have failed" philosophy.  A classic problem is
> optocouplers.  You might choose a part that has a current transfer ratio of
> 100, and your design needs a CTR of 1.  But the data sheet says
> 90 85.  The part still works just fine (you need a CTR of 1) but the parts
> engineer says "nope, that part has failed at the dose, you can't use it".
>
> A lot of space qualification is paperwork to prove you have "traceability
> to sand" for the parts.  Lot numbers, production dates, etc.  So when the
> GIDEP (http://www.gidep.org/) comes out for a 2NA (yes I've gotten
> one), you can go and see if YOUR particular NPN transistor is covered.
>
> And then there's testing at many levels (not all of which is valuable)...
>
> Incoming inspection of resistors.  Back in the 60s, someone must have
> gotten a "out of spec" resistor in a box of 5% resistors - so the procedure
> was put in place: Measure each resistor (after assigning a serial number,
> and verifying the color stripes, including the stripe width and
> colorimetric properties) with a calibrated ohmmeter(with calibration data
> recorded), record each measurement, and attach that the to the build book.
>
> So, today, you get a reel of 1000 resistors all 100 ohms. Someone in
> incoming inspection in a clean room at an ESD safe (to 50V) workstation,
> pulls each resistor off the tape, takes a picture of it, verifies the
> physical size on a coordinate measuring machine, measures the resistance,
> logs that information, and carefully places the resistor into an assigned
> cell in a waffle pack.   Then, later, someone takes the resistors out of
> the waffle pack, puts them back into a tape, after measuring the resistance
> and dimensions, so that it can be loaded into the automated assembly
> machine.
>
> This is what makes space qualified equipment expensive.
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium Cells for Sale ?!

[William H. Fite]

Mother of God, really?

I had a friend, now of blessed memory, who was lead communications engineer
for Grumman on the lunar lander. He used to boggle our minds with stories
of the truly absurd lengths that NASA made them go to have hardware "space
certified."


On Monday, May 6, 2019, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Back a while ago it was in the “over a million dollars” range.  Like
> anything that
> is designed for space use, the price is meaningless until you sort through
> what
> kind of paperwork this or that program requires.
>
> Bob
>
> > On May 6, 2019, at 5:37 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:
> >
> > Anyone know the price of the Excelitas device? No, I'm not interested in
> > purchasing one, just curious. I assume it is hair-curling expensive.
> >
> >
> > On Monday, May 6, 2019, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Ummm ….. e ….. the Efratom Rb’s use an integrated lamp plus one
> cell.
> >>
> >> http://www.wriley.com/A%20Modern%20MIL%20Rubidium%
> >> 20Frequency%20Standard.pdf <http://www.wriley.com/A%
> >> 20Modern%20MIL%20Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standard.pdf>
> >>
> >> There still are a lot of people doing the lamp plus two approach. One of
> >> many:
> >>
> >> http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf <
> >> http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf>
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On May 6, 2019, at 3:23 PM, Ed Palmer  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2019-05-06 10:00 AM,  Bob kb8tq wrote:
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> I?m sure they are good cells. The gotcha is ?which one is it??. A
> >> normal Rb has multiple
> >>>> cells doing different things. You ? umm? errr ? need a set of cells ?.
> >>>
> >>> Why do you think I posed the question "Anybody feeling lucky (or
> >> desperate!)?"?  Don't forget that all(?) newer Rb standards use an
> >> integrated cell so it's a 'set' of one.  Whether that's the case here is
> >> unknown, but not likely given the size of this cell.
> >>>
> >>> The only Russian Rb company I've heard of is Kvarz.  Has anyone seen a
> >> cell from one of their old units?
> >>>
> >>> Ed
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium Cells for Sale ?!

[William H. Fite]

I suppose that shouldn't surprise me but, since I have neither ITAR
credentials nor a metric shit load of money, it's a good thing that I don't
want one.



On Monday, May 6, 2019, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:

> 
> In message <
> cany2ixqyls38t7jvao76vdhj2pkvhbpittzq85jnwnd+lpx...@mail.gmail.com>,
> "William H. Fite" writes:
>
> > Anyone know the price of the Excelitas device? No, I'm not interested in
> > purchasing one, just curious. I assume it is hair-curling expensive.
>
> In addition to a metric shit-load of money, you also need an ITAR
> approval before they will sell you one.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium Cells for Sale ?!

[William H. Fite]

Anyone know the price of the Excelitas device? No, I'm not interested in
purchasing one, just curious. I assume it is hair-curling expensive.


On Monday, May 6, 2019, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Ummm ….. e ….. the Efratom Rb’s use an integrated lamp plus one cell.
>
> http://www.wriley.com/A%20Modern%20MIL%20Rubidium%
> 20Frequency%20Standard.pdf  20Modern%20MIL%20Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standard.pdf>
>
> There still are a lot of people doing the lamp plus two approach. One of
> many:
>
> http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf <
> http://www.excelitas.com/Downloads/DTS_Frequency_Standards_RAFS.pdf>
>
> Bob
>
> > On May 6, 2019, at 3:23 PM, Ed Palmer  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2019-05-06 10:00 AM,  Bob kb8tq wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> I?m sure they are good cells. The gotcha is ?which one is it??. A
> normal Rb has multiple
> >> cells doing different things. You ? umm? errr ? need a set of cells ?.
> >
> > Why do you think I posed the question "Anybody feeling lucky (or
> desperate!)?"?  Don't forget that all(?) newer Rb standards use an
> integrated cell so it's a 'set' of one.  Whether that's the case here is
> unknown, but not likely given the size of this cell.
> >
> > The only Russian Rb company I've heard of is Kvarz.  Has anyone seen a
> cell from one of their old units?
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Homo sum humani a me nihil alienum puto.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] multimeter

[William H. Fite]

You're so right about the 289. It costs too much, sucks the life out of
batteries and is way too big.

I have about a dozen handheld MMs, from a piece of Harbor Freight trash to
a Gossen Metrahit M248A (believe it or not, a gift from a widow, off her
late husband's bench. NIB). My 87 is the one I use the most. You know what
I use my 289 for? Tracking internal temp on the Christmas turkey and the
occasional hunk of roast beef.

It may not be the most desirable multimeter but it's one hell of a meat
thermometer!



On Monday, March 25, 2019, Dan Kemppainen  wrote:

> The 87 is a good general purpose meter. My preference has been the now
> obsolete Fluke 189. It was replaced with the 289, which is just horrible.
> It eats batteries, is huge, takes forever to 'boot'. No one in the ship
> grabs that one unless it's the last one on the shelf.
>
> We've gone to orange meters now that we can't get more 189's. The Keysignt
> U1272A has been a good replacement in our shop for the 189.
>
> I also have a U1241B, and am quite happy with it. I find myself reaching
> for the U1241B more often than the Fluke 189 as of late. It's smaller...
>
> All that said, I'm certain you'll be happy 87 for what you plan on doing
> with it.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On 3/24/2019 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote:
>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:00:12 +1100
>> From: Jim Palfreyman
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] multimeter
>> Message-ID:
>> > gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Thanks so much everyone for your comments. I especially liked "get the
>> orange one". Because that's what I did get (I think it's orange - could be
>> yellow).
>>
>> I was deliberately vague (apologies) but I just wanted a broad response.
>> Which I got.
>>
>> I've settled on the Fluke 87V. It's on it's way.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


--
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] multimeter

[William H. Fite]

Fluke is the yellow one. Agilent is the orange one. Both are excellent. You
made a fine choice.



On Sunday, March 24, 2019, Jim Palfreyman  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Thanks so much everyone for your comments. I especially liked "get the
> orange one". Because that's what I did get (I think it's orange - could be
> yellow).
>
> I was deliberately vague (apologies) but I just wanted a broad response.
> Which I got.
>
> I've settled on the Fluke 87V. It's on it's way.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 12:00, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> >  I have a cheap Chinese clamp-on power line ammeter I use occasionally.
> > Its lowest range is 20 A I think but I built a 10:1 expander (very
> > simple).  I also built a line separator so I can grip just one line.
> > Bob
> > On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 5:00:23 PM PDT, Jim Harman <
> > j99har...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  jim77...@gmail.com said:
> > > I think I'm in the market for a new digital multimeter.
> > > Could I have some recommendations?
> >
> > >
> > > It all depends on whether you are checking for a bad power supply or
> > testing the linearity of a 24 bit DAC.
> >
> > For the former, I find a built-in clamp type AC/DC ammeter with a
> > reasonably sensitive range (40 A or less) is very handy. My current
> > favorite is the Mastech MS2108, from Amazon.
> >
> > -Jim Harman
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


--
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] multimeter

[William H. Fite]

That's why I mentioned 8.5 digit meters, Adrian. This being time nuts,
someone is going to declare it essential to measure a signal with zeptovolt
accuracy.



On Saturday, March 23, 2019, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> This is volt-nut territory, isn't it ?
> If we're into choosing on the basis of essential specialist features, as is
> fitting for time-nuts, I'm going to recommend the HP970A. It's the only
> meter I know that can be configured to work upside-down.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 5:08 PM Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> >  It depends on what kind of measurements you make.  I have many
> voltmeters
> > and use what is appropriate for the task.  I can measure very accurately
> if
> > necessary.  My spectrum analyzers are great rf voltmeters.  I have some
> of
> > the Harbor Freight cheapies that are handy for many occasional uses.  I
> > have an old Radio Schlock VOM that is almost indispensable, and a Simpson
> > 260 and a Triplett 630-NA.  I even have an antique digital voltmeter,
> five
> > digit.
> > Judging from the brevity of your request, I will assume you just want to
> > make the occasional measurement.  The Harbor Freight units are a good
> > choice except they only have a 1 Megohm input resistance on dc, and only
> go
> > up to about 2 Meg on resistance if I recall correctly.  Maybe 20 meg.
> They
> > won't measure ac current but they do have semiconductor tests and a
> battery
> > test position.  If I needed just one, I'd look at the Fluke 87 or some of
> > its variants.
> > The worst part of all these is the need to replace batteries now and then
> > or risk damage from corrosion.
> > Bob
> > On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 7:01:57 AM PDT, Jim Palfreyman <
> > jim77...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Hi all,
> >
> > I think I'm in the market for a new digital multimeter.
> >
> > Could I have some recommendations?
> >
> > Jim
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


--
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Bricked Garmin GPS 18x LVC

[William H. Fite]

That worked for mine a while back. I bricked it and my attempts at
resuscitation failed. I put it in my "probably junk" container. Shortly
after that, I moved. With the hassle of packing, moving, unpacking, I
forgot it completely. Weeks later, I came across it, applied power, and it
sprang to life anew.

So don't give up.



On Saturday, February 23, 2019, Jason Rabel via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> That page you linked to says:
>
> "I am reminded by Dave Hart that it was due to a firmware bug that bricks
> the unit until it's left off power long enough to drain the capacitor that
> retains its settings, sort of a poor-man's NVRAM.  This can take some
> weeks."
>
> Or I suppose if you are impatient you could open it up and de-solder the
> super-cap if you don't want to wait weeks for it to drain on its own.
> *Maybe* you will get lucky and that's all it will take?
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


--
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[William H. Fite]

Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?


On Friday, February 15, 2019, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Jim,
> ...
> Please register by June 4, 2019 to ensure your spot at this event. The
> registration fee is $1,900.
>
> Thanks for the heads up.
>
> Best Regards,
> John W.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 3:00 PM jimlux  wrote:
>
> >
> > https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-
> nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


--
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: IFCS-EFTF 2019: Call for Papers

[William H. Fite]

That  happens more often than you might think. Many and many a post doc has
labored long hours to complete and write up a piece of research only to see
it published under their boss's name.



On Saturday, September 22, 2018, Chris Howard  wrote:

>
> I read these "calls for papers" things and try to think of
> something "meta" since I am not anywhere near the 'bleeding edge'
> of any such topic.  Maybe a survey of the number of NTP-using
> devices in the world  (people love charts and statistics),
> or something about the history of something.
>
> Hey, one of you shy geniuses could write the paper and
> I go present it?  That would work until Q time.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 09/21/2018 03:41 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
>> Fellow time-nuts,
>>
>> This just came in, and my first thought is to send it to you. Consider
>> writing a paper and presentation, consider submitting it, consider to be
>> part of the professional community if you do not already do this.
>> Regardless, I see many talented folks here, some professional, some very
>> advanced amateurs, and regardless, I think more people can contribute
>> and with that improve the exchange of ideas and experience, we can have
>> the community flourish.
>>
>> So, I know that I should try my best to write up one or two things. You
>> should too!
>>
>> I want more people to get experience, acknowledgment and better ability
>> to contribute to the field.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>>  Forwarded Message 
>> Subject:IFCS-EFTF 2019: Call for Papers
>> Date:   Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:07:44 +
>> From:   IEEE-UFFC 
>> Reply-To:   IEEE-UFFC 
>> To: mag...@rubidium.se
>>
>>
>>
>> IFCS-EFTF 2019: Call for Papers
>> IEEE IFCS-EFTF 2019
>>
>> View this email in your browser
>> > frequency-control-symposium-2018-cfp-first-round-1027905?e=b16304b3ba>
>>
>> > 9842244c47f5eef6a1=07fcdc4950=b16304b3ba>
>>
>>
>> Colleagues,
>>   On behalf of the Joint Technical Program Committee, we are pleased to
>> announce the first call for papers to be submitted to the 2019 Joint
>> Conference of the IEEE International Frequency Control Symposium and the
>> European Frequency and Time Forum. The Conference will be held April
>> 14-18, 2019 at the Caribe Royale Hotel in Orlando, Florida.
>>   *Conference web site and submission
>> instructions:* http://ifcs-eftf2019.org/
>> > 9842244c47f5eef6a1=0eb8330f98=b16304b3ba>
>> *Abstract submission deadline:* November 30, 2018
>>   We look forward to seeing you in Orlando next year!
>>   Davide Calonico, John Kitching
>> Co-Chairs, JTPC, IFCS-EFTF 2019
>>
>> /Copyright © 2018 Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and Frequency Control
>> Society, All rights reserved./
>> This list is used ONLY for IEEE Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and
>> Frequency Control Society (UFFC-S) announcements. It is NOT shared with
>> others. If you unsubscribe, you will not receive future announcements
>> about UFFC-S activities, such as the International Frequency Control
>> Symposium and the Transactions on Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and
>> Frequency Control.
>>
>> *Our mailing address is:*
>> Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and Frequency Control Society
>> 1210 NW 14th Ave
>> Gainesville, Florida 32601
>>
>> Add us to your address book
>> > eef6a1=767ea70f2a>
>>
>>
>> Want to change how you receive these emails?
>> You can update your preferences
>> > 244c47f5eef6a1=767ea70f2a=b16304b3ba>
>> or unsubscribe from this list
>> > 9842244c47f5eef6a1=767ea70f2a=b16304b3ba=98a471937c>.
>>
>> IEEE Privacy Policy
>> > 9842244c47f5eef6a1=7188f6ba5a=b16304b3ba>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: IFCS-EFTF 2019: Call for Papers

[William H. Fite]

I wholeheartedly endorse Magnus's recommendation regarding refereed
publications and presentations. Those of us who have made our careers in
academia accept the obligation to research and publish as critical to
promotion, tenure, even continued employment. Yes, it can be intimidating
at first. In the hypercompetitive world of academe you can take the
occasional pounding but the act of committing your ideas to print and
laying them before your peers sharpens your thinking, broadens and deepens
your knowledge, and brings you into contact with some very bright
individuals.

Go for it, gents. The rewards are plentiful.

Bill


On Friday, September 21, 2018, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Fellow time-nuts,
>
> This just came in, and my first thought is to send it to you. Consider
> writing a paper and presentation, consider submitting it, consider to be
> part of the professional community if you do not already do this.
> Regardless, I see many talented folks here, some professional, some very
> advanced amateurs, and regardless, I think more people can contribute
> and with that improve the exchange of ideas and experience, we can have
> the community flourish.
>
> So, I know that I should try my best to write up one or two things. You
> should too!
>
> I want more people to get experience, acknowledgment and better ability
> to contribute to the field.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject:IFCS-EFTF 2019: Call for Papers
> Date:   Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:07:44 +
> From:   IEEE-UFFC 
> Reply-To:   IEEE-UFFC 
> To: mag...@rubidium.se
>
>
>
> IFCS-EFTF 2019: Call for Papers
> IEEE IFCS-EFTF 2019
>
> View this email in your browser
>  control-symposium-2018-cfp-first-round-1027905?e=b16304b3ba>
>
>  868cb5d9842244c47f5eef6a1=07fcdc4950=b16304b3ba>
>
>
> Colleagues,
>
> On behalf of the Joint Technical Program Committee, we are pleased to
> announce the first call for papers to be submitted to the 2019 Joint
> Conference of the IEEE International Frequency Control Symposium and the
> European Frequency and Time Forum. The Conference will be held April
> 14-18, 2019 at the Caribe Royale Hotel in Orlando, Florida.
>
> *Conference web site and submission
> instructions:* http://ifcs-eftf2019.org/
>  868cb5d9842244c47f5eef6a1=0eb8330f98=b16304b3ba>
> *Abstract submission deadline:* November 30, 2018
>
> We look forward to seeing you in Orlando next year!
>
> Davide Calonico, John Kitching
> Co-Chairs, JTPC, IFCS-EFTF 2019
>
> /Copyright © 2018 Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and Frequency Control
> Society, All rights reserved./
> This list is used ONLY for IEEE Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and
> Frequency Control Society (UFFC-S) announcements. It is NOT shared with
> others. If you unsubscribe, you will not receive future announcements
> about UFFC-S activities, such as the International Frequency Control
> Symposium and the Transactions on Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and
> Frequency Control.
>
> *Our mailing address is:*
> Ultrasonics, Ferroelectrics, and Frequency Control Society
> 1210 NW 14th Ave
> Gainesville, Florida 32601
>
> Add us to your address book
>  767ea70f2a>
>
>
> Want to change how you receive these emails?
> You can update your preferences
>  868cb5d9842244c47f5eef6a1=767ea70f2a=b16304b3ba>
> or unsubscribe from this list
>  868cb5d9842244c47f5eef6a1=767ea70f2a=b16304b3ba=98a471937c>.
>
> IEEE Privacy Policy
>  868cb5d9842244c47f5eef6a1=7188f6ba5a=b16304b3ba>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[William H. Fite]

We sound like we could be cousins, Scott. When we bought our current house,
I discovered that the previous owner had built a Faraday cage in a small
room off the basement. I put all my stuff in there. I also have a generator
with magneto ignition so I should be good to go when the end-of-the-world
arrives.



On Saturday, September 8, 2018, Scott McGrath  wrote:

> Actually
>
> I do have much of my equipment inside a shield room,  not for tinfoil hat
> reasons but to keep experimental systems from causing interference and to
> eliminate existing RF sources in the 800 Mhz to 8 Ghz range as error
> sources in measurements.
>
> If one is concerned there are lots of old screen rooms coming up for sale
> on e-bay as WiFi manufacturers prepare to dip their toes into bands above
> 10 Ghz and many of the old ones were only good to 6-8 Ghz.
>
> As to backup generators I have a modern one and an ‘old school’
> mechanically governed one with magneto ignition.I keep that one mainly
> because i like its Art Deco design.Sometimes bring it to local Ag Fair
> to display among the gear from that era.
>
> Content by Scott
> Typos by Siri
>
> On Sep 8, 2018, at 8:11 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Gentlemen, I've found this discussion interesting and informative. This
> household works on quantum information theory rather than engineering so
> there is much for us to learn.
>
> I must observe that if an event takes out the entire GPS system (which a
> Carrington event would not do) we will have issues a great deal more
> immediate and pressing than getting hyper-precise timing systems restored.
>
> And speaking of Carrington events, how many of us have our equipment
> surrounded by Faraday cages and supplied with off-grid power? Because
> without those, we won't have instruments to measure T at home or even in
> a great many labs and businesses.
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
>
>
> > On Saturday, September 8, 2018, Dana Whitlow 
> wrote:
> >
> > I argue that when the "big one" happens, getting back to where we are
> > technologically
> > will be in large part a bootstrapping kind of affair.  And I believe that
> > starting off with
> > WWV* will be a far better starting point than starting with sun clocks
> and
> > dripping
> > water.
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Ruslan Nabioullin  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 8:32 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is Time Nuts, not end of the world nuts …..
> >>> ...
> >>> I think we’ve all heard plenty of “the world is ending” stuff.
> >>>
> >>
> >> But the availability of a T service under adverse conditions and the
> >> ability of a system which consumes a T reference to gracefully degrade
> >> its functionality upon degradation or absence of reference input(s) are
> >> features/figures of merit---I do not see how discussion of that aspect
> > can
> >> be considered to be offtopic.
> >>
> >> -Ruslan
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ruslan Nabioullin
> >> Wittgenstein Laboratories
> >> rnabioul...@gmail.com
> >> (508) 523-8535
> >> 50 Louise Dr.
> >> Hollis, NH 03049
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
> when it deserves it.
> --Mark Twain
>
> We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
> for sinners. His standards are quite low.
> --Desmond Tutu
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?

[William H. Fite]

Gentlemen, I've found this discussion interesting and informative. This
household works on quantum information theory rather than engineering so
there is much for us to learn.

I must observe that if an event takes out the entire GPS system (which a
Carrington event would not do) we will have issues a great deal more
immediate and pressing than getting hyper-precise timing systems restored.

And speaking of Carrington events, how many of us have our equipment
surrounded by Faraday cages and supplied with off-grid power? Because
without those, we won't have instruments to measure T at home or even in
a great many labs and businesses.

Just a thought.




On Saturday, September 8, 2018, Dana Whitlow  wrote:

> I argue that when the "big one" happens, getting back to where we are
> technologically
> will be in large part a bootstrapping kind of affair.  And I believe that
> starting off with
> WWV* will be a far better starting point than starting with sun clocks and
> dripping
> water.
>
> Dana
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Ruslan Nabioullin 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 8:32 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > > This is Time Nuts, not end of the world nuts …..
> > > ...
> > > I think we’ve all heard plenty of “the world is ending” stuff.
> > >
> >
> > But the availability of a T service under adverse conditions and the
> > ability of a system which consumes a T reference to gracefully degrade
> > its functionality upon degradation or absence of reference input(s) are
> > features/figures of merit---I do not see how discussion of that aspect
> can
> > be considered to be offtopic.
> >
> > -Ruslan
> >
> > --
> > Ruslan Nabioullin
> > Wittgenstein Laboratories
> > rnabioul...@gmail.com
> > (508) 523-8535
> > 50 Louise Dr.
> > Hollis, NH 03049
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion

[William H. Fite]

With respect, Scott, EVERY ham knows about WWV.


On Saturday, September 1, 2018, Scott McGrath  wrote:

> I’m concerned with the science
>
> the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the condition
> of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data.
>
> Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a interface for
> Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still provide
> network time within all national banking regulations.
>
> As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS users
> like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of influence
> just how FRAGILE a system GPS is.I realize some dont want to hear this
> but its essential that we as a technological society create backup systems
> using different techology bases to deliver precise time and frequency in an
> economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of 5071’s.
>
> As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are
> running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch to align
> the PTO,  even know about WWV.
>
> Most of the WWV users  I know personally are atmospheric scientists,
> military and other government users.
>
>
>
> Content by Scott
> Typos by Siri
>
> On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Brian Lloyd  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw <
> david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic.  They may not be as
> > precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly
> > available methods of time dissemination.  I am very concerned that
> factions
> > of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission.
> >
>
> I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons:
>
> 1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
> You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave
> receiver.  No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things
> that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
> dinner.
>
> 2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
> ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
> 15, 20, and 25 MHz.
>
> I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for
> people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
> convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.
>
> YMMV.
>
> --
>
>
>
> Brian Lloyd
> 706 Flightline
> Spring Branch, TX 78070
> br...@lloyd.aero
> +1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] News

[William H. Fite]

Congratulations, Magnus! Fellowship is next.


On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Magnus Danielson 
wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> On 08/30/2018 10:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Magnus … do you have some news you might want to share with the group?
>
> Oh, well, sure:
>
> Today I received a nice email from IEEE starting with:
> "It is a great pleasure to congratulate you on your elevation to the
> grade of IEEE Senior member. IEEE Senior Membership is an honor bestowed
> only to those who have made significant contributions to the profession."
>
> I'm humbled by these words, but proud of the achievement and happy for
> the distinction. This has been a process that has been going on since
> spring when IEEE approached me and pointed out that I should be able to
> become senior member, writing up a modern CV and then being interviewed
> by three Senior Members was interesting, sharing the room with very
> senior engineers, PhDs and professors all seeking to reach the IEEE
> Senior member elevation.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.