Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion,
One way I like to put it is like you when I start it in ham radio I immediately considered WWV as the answer to everything TimeWise. But for me around about 1975 I worked at General Electric space flight systems. One could say I became a Time nuts then and discovered that what I thought what is a Accurate Way of determining how much in error I was between NBS and my clock Waze and amount that was totally useless to anybody else other than maybe a ham and someone that owned a watch. So I went from 1/100th to at least at work 1/100 and now today that is considered totally useless. Put about 20 zeros and you're getting closer. The only way to put it is the world has changed On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 7:15 AM Scott McGrath wrote: > Hi Joe > > Like myself you are not a RECENT ham. Your first radio like mine was > probably a Heathkit with Glassfet technology. Like me you learned how to > use WWV to set clocks and your VFO accurately > > Fast forward to the ‘current’ generation of hams. Most have been licensed > 15 years or less. They are interested in SDR, digital modes, ‘The World > Above 50 Mhz’ and to a lesser extent coherent CW. This generation ‘knows’ > WWV as a question in the exam pool and they never met W2NSD. > > This is the generation of hams who DONT use WWV. At many large tech > companies you would be surprised at the number of hams but most of them > don’t advertise the fact as I’dont because of the undeserved reputation of > hams being behind the technology curve. But everyone is gaga because i > have a GROL+RADAR+GMDSS maintainer. > > Content by Scott > Typos by Siri > > On Sep 1, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Joe Hobart wrote: > > Scott McGrath > > I am an amateur radio operator (62 years), and I have accurate 1 PPS and > 10 MHz > available. I also coordinate emergency communications for this very large > county. > > I use WWV: > > To judge propagation during normal and other than normal times > > To set clocks after a power outage > > To calibrate relatively new amateur radio transceivers (not Collins) > > To set my computer clock to better than 1/10 second for FT8 digital mode > and > when I was recovering faint asteroids that were in danger of being lost > > It is easy to set clocks within 1/10 second while watching the digital > display > and listening to the WWV/WWVH tics. I tend to get the wrong second when I > use a > GPS clock. > > Best, > Joe Hobart > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
Hi The referenced line item is $6.8 million a year. It is still very much unclear if that is just WWV(H) (from the reference it must include them) or if it also includes WWWVB. Without any clarification, we are only guessing about WWVB. Given the way the budget process works, there’s never a lot of clarity at this point. Bob > On Sep 2, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Artek Manuals wrote: > > Does any one know what the line item $$$ amount is for the WWV/WWVB operating > budget? > > -DC > NR1DX > manu...@artekmanuals.com > > On 9/1/2018 11:59 PM, Peter Laws wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 7:25 PM Bob kb8tq wrote: >> >>> I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed >>> the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the >>> “delay” >> I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in >> the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with >> NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used >> as a "refclock". Certainly not in the last decade. Maybe there were >> many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference >> implementation back in the 1980s but not now. >> >> I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent, >> evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to >> keep my powder dry. >> > > -- > Dave > manu...@artekmanuals.com > www.ArtekManuals.com > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
Does any one know what the line item $$$ amount is for the WWV/WWVB operating budget? -DC NR1DX manu...@artekmanuals.com On 9/1/2018 11:59 PM, Peter Laws wrote: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 7:25 PM Bob kb8tq wrote: I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay” I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used as a "refclock". Certainly not in the last decade. Maybe there were many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference implementation back in the 1980s but not now. I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent, evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to keep my powder dry. -- Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion,
Scott McGrath I am an amateur radio operator (62 years), and I have accurate 1 PPS and 10 MHz available. I also coordinate emergency communications for this very large county. I use WWV: To judge propagation during normal and other than normal times To set clocks after a power outage To calibrate relatively new amateur radio transceivers (not Collins) To set my computer clock to better than 1/10 second for FT8 digital mode and when I was recovering faint asteroids that were in danger of being lost It is easy to set clocks within 1/10 second while watching the digital display and listening to the WWV/WWVH tics. I tend to get the wrong second when I use a GPS clock. Best, Joe Hobart ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
Hi I most certainly *have* seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay” number into their config file with the wrong sign on it (or there was a bug in the NTP code at that time). The result was that they were …. errr …. a bit off time. So yes, you *can* hook NTP into WWVB, it has been done. It is a way (if you get the signs right ….) to get into millisecond(s) level accuracy. Bob > On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:02 PM, Peter Laws wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM David G. McGaw > wrote: > >> available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that >> factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their >> mission. > > > 1) WWV* systems are not critical to anything I have found other than > WWVB being used to keep "atomic clocks" in sync and updated for DST. > I've asked in many places but other than two recent papers that used > WWV HF signals with the Long Wavelength Array to do some ionospheric > measurements I can't find any evidence that the signals are critical > to anything in science. > > 2) Anyone that *needs* accurate time to within a few ms of UTC uses > NTP. Anyone who thinks they need more precision than that can look at > PTP (usually deciding that NTP is plenty good once they see what it > will cost them for PTP). All current consumer operating systems (OS > X, iOS, Android, Windows, etc) have some form of NTP client built in. > > 3) Is no one familiar with the US federal budgeting process? Really? > The executive branch (Commerce is a cabinet-level department therein) > submits to the legislative branch the budget for what they claim they > will need for the upcoming fiscal year. This is made up from > estimates of each cabinet member (and others) who get their numbers > from the various institutions within their silos (e.g., NIST under > Commerce). Because no department head wants their budget cut, they > ensure that items put up for "cutting" are ones that the public is > most likely to complain (to congress) about. A quick google didn't > tell me when the executive branch last submitted a budget that was > actually in balance but I'm sure it's been 35 years at least despite > the alleged cutting. And it doesn't matter because the executive > budget is routinely ignored by the body that is actually in charge of > spending, congress. > > 4) I don't think I've ever seen an NTP server that used WWV* as their > reference clock (it's listed in the output of the query command) > because GPS is ubiquitous. "Yeah, but Carrington!" I am not certain, > but given that in the US, the Navstar GPS is a US military system run > by the US military for US military purposes (which happens to have a > signal available to civilians) that the designers were not only aware > of solar physics but used that awareness to make the GPS system as > resilient as they could to the potential effects of CMEs and flares. > So for me, the "GPS COULD FAIL!" argument does nothing. > > > > I'd rather read about Earth tides affecting time measurements. Or > proper care and feeding of your Cs oscillator. > > > > -- > Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train! > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
Try receiving wwv or wwvb with your HP3586 SLV and determine precisely where f(o) is. It's difficult, ...as propagation and atmospheric conditions will unwittingly prevail. This ham prefers my gpsdo's, or my cesium. Don N5CID = On Sat, 2018-09-01 at 17:04 -0400, William H. Fite wrote: > With respect, Scott, EVERY ham knows about WWV. > > > On Saturday, September 1, 2018, Scott McGrath > wrote: > > > > > I’m concerned with the science > > > > the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the > > condition > > of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data. > > > > Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a > > interface for > > Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still > > provide > > network time within all national banking regulations. > > > > As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS > > users > > like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of > > influence > > just how FRAGILE a system GPS is.I realize some dont want to > > hear this > > but its essential that we as a technological society create backup > > systems > > using different techology bases to deliver precise time and > > frequency in an > > economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of > > 5071’s. > > > > As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are > > running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch > > to align > > the PTO, even know about WWV. > > > > Most of the WWV users I know personally are atmospheric > > scientists, > > military and other government users. > > > > > > > > Content by Scott > > Typos by Siri > > > > On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw < > > david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be > > > as > > > precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are > > > publicly > > > available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned > > > that > > factions > > > > > > of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their > > > mission. > > > > > I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons: > > > > 1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time > > reference. > > You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 > > shortwave > > receiver. No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most > > things > > that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to > > come to > > dinner. > > > > 2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the > > the > > ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, > > 5, 10, > > 15, 20, and 25 MHz. > > > > I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant > > because, for > > people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the > > most > > convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful. > > > > YMMV. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Brian Lloyd > > 706 Flightline > > Spring Branch, TX 78070 > > br...@lloyd.aero > > +1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359) > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
Me too... that's why Lady Heather can calculate and plot solid earth tide displacements. Also the vertical offset in gravity due to solar/lunar tidal effects. - >I'd rather read about Earth tides affecting time measurements. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
With respect, Scott, EVERY ham knows about WWV. On Saturday, September 1, 2018, Scott McGrath wrote: > I’m concerned with the science > > the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the condition > of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data. > > Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a interface for > Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still provide > network time within all national banking regulations. > > As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS users > like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of influence > just how FRAGILE a system GPS is.I realize some dont want to hear this > but its essential that we as a technological society create backup systems > using different techology bases to deliver precise time and frequency in an > economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of 5071’s. > > As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are > running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch to align > the PTO, even know about WWV. > > Most of the WWV users I know personally are atmospheric scientists, > military and other government users. > > > > Content by Scott > Typos by Siri > > On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw < > david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu> > wrote: > > > I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be as > > precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly > > available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that > factions > > of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission. > > > > I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons: > > 1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference. > You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave > receiver. No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things > that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to > dinner. > > 2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the > ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10, > 15, 20, and 25 MHz. > > I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for > people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most > convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful. > > YMMV. > > -- > > > > Brian Lloyd > 706 Flightline > Spring Branch, TX 78070 > br...@lloyd.aero > +1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359) > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > -- Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. --Mark Twain We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot for sinners. His standards are quite low. --Desmond Tutu ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw wrote: > I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be as > precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly > available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that factions > of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission. > I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons: 1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference. You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave receiver. No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to dinner. 2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 MHz. I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful. YMMV. -- Brian Lloyd 706 Flightline Spring Branch, TX 78070 br...@lloyd.aero +1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic. They may not be as precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly available methods of time dissemination. I am very concerned that factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their mission. David N1HAC On 9/1/18 9:07 AM, David C. Partridge wrote: Guys, The noise level has risen rather high lately. I really think that discussions of jamming of GPS and other systems are not relevant. The loss of WWVx is also mostly OT as I don't believe that anyone seriously still uses it for a time/frequency reference these days. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.comdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Ce0e9e895b95745b22e1108d6100c0feb%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636714041375744905sdata=GIbCxoeew%2F2dJlK7sI8lPe%2F6dTzzC5Aas%2BGdCYizb9o%3Dreserved=0 and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lots of Off Topic discussion
Guys, The noise level has risen rather high lately. I really think that discussions of jamming of GPS and other systems are not relevant. The loss of WWVx is also mostly OT as I don't believe that anyone seriously still uses it for a time/frequency reference these days. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
