Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hello to the group. Have actually installed the loop antenna in the basement. Its all working. Had to use some telephone twisted pair to feed the antenna. At 60 KHz thats a 15 db loss. Could easily be made up with a small audio amplifier. Free air transmission seems to be another 50 db. Thats through a floor and marbel kitchen counter top. The antenna touches some metal pipes at points. But the WWVB clocks lock up very quickly. As a guess the system may be at the 30 uv level. May try switching to a coax feed. Not as close to the antenna but see what it does. wwvb version 2.0 works. Last step will be to install in a rack mount chassis just in case that day ever comes. Though as mentioned I sure do like the way the clocks lockup fast any time of day. regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 5:50 PM, paul swed wrote: > Achim > No offense taken and sorry if it appeared that way. The great thing about > time nuts is there is a diversity of opinions, guidance and help. I have > admired the DCF signal over the years and whats been done with it. You > mention studios and I also have been involved in Broadcast television so > appreciate time from that perspective. > My understanding is that those cheap little clock ICs handle all of the > VLF time signals. Its normally some sort of internal selection. That may or > may not be pads on the board. pretty amazing for a black glob on a board. > Its unfortunate that we may loose out wwvb. But at least direct > alternatives exist. I am fortunate to be able to actually measure radiated > levels very accurately so will respect the allowed emission levels. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Achim Gratz wrote: > >> paul swed writes: >> > Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I >> > don't. >> >> Fair enough. >> >> > They do what they do very well and consume 0 power. >> >> Well, I assume there's some sort of battery involved, but anyway, this >> line of discussion misses the point. Replacing one LF module with >> another HF module, both powered on for a maximum of half an hour a day >> shouldn't make much of a difference (as long as you do not use the >> transmit function of the module, which I can see uses for given the fact >> that there's nearly always a thermometer and hygrometer in these >> clocks). >> >> > Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the >> basement. >> > Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want >> > also. >> >> That's some indication that your transmitter may have more power or your >> general reception of the real WWVB is better than you think. The null >> on a ferrite rod is pretty steep, so finding no orientation where it >> stops working seems strange. I have had to open a number of my clocks >> specifically to reorient the ferrite so I could place them where I >> wanted. The only clock that didn't have that problem turned out to >> employ two modules with their antennas at 90° at the opposite sides of >> the case. >> >> Anyway, you don't want to modify the clock and I don't particularly want >> to build something that might be illegal if anybody can detect and >> complain about it, even when that chance is very small. >> >> > The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are >> > willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them >> > powered all the time. Many options. >> >> Actually, one of the reasons I even brought it up was that many years >> ago I needed a bunch of clocks driven from a master clock so they'd all >> show the same time synchronized to the sub-second and they needed to be >> readable from a fair distance, so their display had to be large. That >> was for a recording studio, so the electromechanical clocks were out due >> to the racket they make. The cheapest solution was in fact to have the >> master clock put DCF77 bits on a telephone wire and then run that into a >> set of DCF clocks with the biggest LCD that we could find. I didn't >> even remove the modules, they just never got their enable signal after >> the modification. The other bit to know about these clocks was that >> they had slide switches instead of todays typical buttons to set their >> modes and that meant you could put them into a continous reception mode >> easily. >> >> > But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off >> its >> > nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right >> time >> > and far more accurately then my mobile phone. >> >> That's why I was curious about their inner workings and if they might >> be much different than what I know from my side of the pond. >> >> > Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share. >> >> I wasn't commenting about the usefulness of the approach or your (or >> anyone elses) intentions or anything of that sort. I had hoped it was >> obvious that this omission was not meant as a back-handed
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Achim No offense taken and sorry if it appeared that way. The great thing about time nuts is there is a diversity of opinions, guidance and help. I have admired the DCF signal over the years and whats been done with it. You mention studios and I also have been involved in Broadcast television so appreciate time from that perspective. My understanding is that those cheap little clock ICs handle all of the VLF time signals. Its normally some sort of internal selection. That may or may not be pads on the board. pretty amazing for a black glob on a board. Its unfortunate that we may loose out wwvb. But at least direct alternatives exist. I am fortunate to be able to actually measure radiated levels very accurately so will respect the allowed emission levels. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Achim Gratz wrote: > paul swed writes: > > Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I > > don't. > > Fair enough. > > > They do what they do very well and consume 0 power. > > Well, I assume there's some sort of battery involved, but anyway, this > line of discussion misses the point. Replacing one LF module with > another HF module, both powered on for a maximum of half an hour a day > shouldn't make much of a difference (as long as you do not use the > transmit function of the module, which I can see uses for given the fact > that there's nearly always a thermometer and hygrometer in these > clocks). > > > Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the > basement. > > Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want > > also. > > That's some indication that your transmitter may have more power or your > general reception of the real WWVB is better than you think. The null > on a ferrite rod is pretty steep, so finding no orientation where it > stops working seems strange. I have had to open a number of my clocks > specifically to reorient the ferrite so I could place them where I > wanted. The only clock that didn't have that problem turned out to > employ two modules with their antennas at 90° at the opposite sides of > the case. > > Anyway, you don't want to modify the clock and I don't particularly want > to build something that might be illegal if anybody can detect and > complain about it, even when that chance is very small. > > > The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are > > willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them > > powered all the time. Many options. > > Actually, one of the reasons I even brought it up was that many years > ago I needed a bunch of clocks driven from a master clock so they'd all > show the same time synchronized to the sub-second and they needed to be > readable from a fair distance, so their display had to be large. That > was for a recording studio, so the electromechanical clocks were out due > to the racket they make. The cheapest solution was in fact to have the > master clock put DCF77 bits on a telephone wire and then run that into a > set of DCF clocks with the biggest LCD that we could find. I didn't > even remove the modules, they just never got their enable signal after > the modification. The other bit to know about these clocks was that > they had slide switches instead of todays typical buttons to set their > modes and that meant you could put them into a continous reception mode > easily. > > > But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off its > > nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right > time > > and far more accurately then my mobile phone. > > That's why I was curious about their inner workings and if they might > be much different than what I know from my side of the pond. > > > Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share. > > I wasn't commenting about the usefulness of the approach or your (or > anyone elses) intentions or anything of that sort. I had hoped it was > obvious that this omission was not meant as a back-handed critique, I > just had nothing to add to the information that was already shared. But > you seem to be offended nonetheless (ever-so-slightly), so I apologize. > > > Regards, > Achim. > -- > +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ > > SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2: > http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
paul swed writes: > Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I > don't. Fair enough. > They do what they do very well and consume 0 power. Well, I assume there's some sort of battery involved, but anyway, this line of discussion misses the point. Replacing one LF module with another HF module, both powered on for a maximum of half an hour a day shouldn't make much of a difference (as long as you do not use the transmit function of the module, which I can see uses for given the fact that there's nearly always a thermometer and hygrometer in these clocks). > Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the basement. > Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want > also. That's some indication that your transmitter may have more power or your general reception of the real WWVB is better than you think. The null on a ferrite rod is pretty steep, so finding no orientation where it stops working seems strange. I have had to open a number of my clocks specifically to reorient the ferrite so I could place them where I wanted. The only clock that didn't have that problem turned out to employ two modules with their antennas at 90° at the opposite sides of the case. Anyway, you don't want to modify the clock and I don't particularly want to build something that might be illegal if anybody can detect and complain about it, even when that chance is very small. > The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are > willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them > powered all the time. Many options. Actually, one of the reasons I even brought it up was that many years ago I needed a bunch of clocks driven from a master clock so they'd all show the same time synchronized to the sub-second and they needed to be readable from a fair distance, so their display had to be large. That was for a recording studio, so the electromechanical clocks were out due to the racket they make. The cheapest solution was in fact to have the master clock put DCF77 bits on a telephone wire and then run that into a set of DCF clocks with the biggest LCD that we could find. I didn't even remove the modules, they just never got their enable signal after the modification. The other bit to know about these clocks was that they had slide switches instead of todays typical buttons to set their modes and that meant you could put them into a continous reception mode easily. > But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off its > nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right time > and far more accurately then my mobile phone. That's why I was curious about their inner workings and if they might be much different than what I know from my side of the pond. > Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share. I wasn't commenting about the usefulness of the approach or your (or anyone elses) intentions or anything of that sort. I had hoped it was obvious that this omission was not meant as a back-handed critique, I just had nothing to add to the information that was already shared. But you seem to be offended nonetheless (ever-so-slightly), so I apologize. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Bob Fantastic to hear. You did the same thing I initially did and that was to use a fluke 6060 gen locked to a GPSDO. (Not really needed but thats the way I am set up.) Though I went further and created a good oscillator divide chain and real modulator. Per Bob s suggestion nothing more then a tristate gate and resistor dividers to create the 14 db carrier drop. Truly a few cheap and simple chips eliminate the big generator. Most likely all of this stuff will live in a truetime DC468 case with display. A very good second life for the Truetime. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Bob Darlington wrote: > I'm happy to report my Chronverter setup at the home lab is working fine. > I'm setting my cheap wall clocks, not so cheap wrist watches, and now my > Truetime 60-DC rack mount "NBS" time display and irig-b generator. > > https://youtu.be/s7DwzSggQSQ > > Lock light comes on, display started after about two minutes. > > I'm cheating and letting my signal generator produce the carrier and I > modulate that with the chronverter (Coff setting) and it just works till I > come up with a long term solution. > > Thanks everyone. > > -Bob N3XKB > > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 9:39 AM paul swed wrote: > > > Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the > loop > > antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. This > added > > a nice 6DB increase in output power as measured by a reference antenna > to a > > HP 3586 slvm. I did try a transformer going from 50 ohm to .75 ohm of the > > antenna at 60 KHz. I fear the core material isn't correct. No matter lots > > of others I can try. Looks like the signal gets through 3 walls and some > 30 > > ft. Getting to be Gud-enuf for setting clocks in the house. Input power > to > > the antenna is approx -10 dbm. > > Plan to run the loop in the basement and that will cover the house. > > Bob you may want t reachout and get an updated software if yours is not > V2. > > Bad news the DC60 expects the carrier to be within =/-.5Hz at 60 KHz I > > measured the tuetime and spectracoms. So I built a simple chain with > > atreasonable oscillator and simple modulator. The clocks lock up solid. > > Since then another time nut suggested using the common 15.36 oscillator > > that divides by 256 to give 60 KHz. Boy I sure would have liked to build > > the system using that simple divider chain. I used a 9.6 MHz osillator > and > > divided by 160. Using TTL its what I had. So I must be consuming a > > mega-watt in the dividers. ;-) > > The key you need real divider chain and modulator and the DC60 will be > > very happy. > > By the way the chronveryer puts out the Julien date so the dc60 even > > displays that. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:06 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > > The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator. > > > dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time, > Spectracoms > > > and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV. > > > exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should > > WWVB > > > be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by > > > setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case. > > > If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you. > > > Regards > > > Paul > > > WB8TSL > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Achim Indeed anything could be used if you want to modify the clocks. I don't. They do what they do very well and consume 0 power. Can be placed in any location in the house or garage and even the basement. Interestingly without the real wwvb I can orient them any way I want also. The last thing I want to do is hack them. But like you say if you are willing to hack a set of 3 wires will do very well. Or just leave them powered all the time. Many options. But many on time-nuts have these clocks and should wwvb be turned off its nice to know my weather stations will keep working and have the right time and far more accurately then my mobile phone. Last comment. Its a time nuts challenge just have to tinker and share. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM, Achim Gratz wrote: > paul swed writes: > > Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the > loop > > antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. > > I am still a bit puzzled by this desire to feed the time in via LF > waves. Maybe WWVB clocks are more different from the MSF / DCF77 ones I > see around here than I thought. All of the ones I've looked at had a > small (but not tiny) module in them which does all the decoding and the > clock itself really only sees the decoded bits. The module typically is > only enabled around the update hour (mostly 4am, sometimes 2am) and > switched off for the rest of the day (unless they couldn't sync in the > about 15 minutes they usually keep trying). So if you really wanted to > wean these off their LF source, it would be much easier to just send the > time out via some ISM band (433MHz or 868MHz / 915MHz as appropriate for > your location) and replace the module with a different one that provides > the decoded bits these clocks expect, just from a different source. > Both the RX modules (actually I see only TX/RX combos at the usual > suspects) and the corresponding antennas (ceramic strip, helix or coil) > should fit nicely in the space formerly used up by the RX module and the > ferrite rod. You'd need another microC to convert the data or use one > of the modules that are programmable. > > > Regards, > Achim. > -- > +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ > > Wavetables for the Terratec KOMPLEXER: > http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
paul swed writes: > Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the loop > antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. I am still a bit puzzled by this desire to feed the time in via LF waves. Maybe WWVB clocks are more different from the MSF / DCF77 ones I see around here than I thought. All of the ones I've looked at had a small (but not tiny) module in them which does all the decoding and the clock itself really only sees the decoded bits. The module typically is only enabled around the update hour (mostly 4am, sometimes 2am) and switched off for the rest of the day (unless they couldn't sync in the about 15 minutes they usually keep trying). So if you really wanted to wean these off their LF source, it would be much easier to just send the time out via some ISM band (433MHz or 868MHz / 915MHz as appropriate for your location) and replace the module with a different one that provides the decoded bits these clocks expect, just from a different source. Both the RX modules (actually I see only TX/RX combos at the usual suspects) and the corresponding antennas (ceramic strip, helix or coil) should fit nicely in the space formerly used up by the RX module and the ferrite rod. You'd need another microC to convert the data or use one of the modules that are programmable. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Wavetables for the Terratec KOMPLEXER: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hello to the group its time for a wwvb chronverter update. I used the loop antenna as Alex suggested. I added caps to resonate it sort of. This added a nice 6DB increase in output power as measured by a reference antenna to a HP 3586 slvm. I did try a transformer going from 50 ohm to .75 ohm of the antenna at 60 KHz. I fear the core material isn't correct. No matter lots of others I can try. Looks like the signal gets through 3 walls and some 30 ft. Getting to be Gud-enuf for setting clocks in the house. Input power to the antenna is approx -10 dbm. Plan to run the loop in the basement and that will cover the house. Bob you may want t reachout and get an updated software if yours is not V2. Bad news the DC60 expects the carrier to be within =/-.5Hz at 60 KHz I measured the tuetime and spectracoms. So I built a simple chain with atreasonable oscillator and simple modulator. The clocks lock up solid. Since then another time nut suggested using the common 15.36 oscillator that divides by 256 to give 60 KHz. Boy I sure would have liked to build the system using that simple divider chain. I used a 9.6 MHz osillator and divided by 160. Using TTL its what I had. So I must be consuming a mega-watt in the dividers. ;-) The key you need real divider chain and modulator and the DC60 will be very happy. By the way the chronveryer puts out the Julien date so the dc60 even displays that. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:06 PM, paul swed wrote: > The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator. > dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time, Spectracoms > and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV. > exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should WWVB > be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by > setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case. > If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:36 AM, paul swed wrote: > >> Its a LPF and its not effecting anything. Square waves worked fine >> actually. But do want to be able to feed an antenna so a bit of filtering >> plus the loops stick should do the job. >> >> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> >>> HI >>> >>> If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the >>> WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the >>> components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal…. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> > On Aug 28, 2018, at 9:33 PM, paul swed wrote: >>> > >>> > LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and >>> > anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers. >>> > Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it >>> really >>> > is time for GPS a neo. >>> > Looking very good. >>> > >>> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:29 PM, paul swed >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in >>> fact >>> >> the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. >>> Clearly >>> >> the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with >>> GPS >>> >> as its designed for. >>> >> Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed >>> time >>> >> into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and >>> down. Its >>> >> impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way. >>> >> GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility. >>> >> Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. >>> If it >>> >> does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 >>> am >>> >> and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its >>> just nice >>> >> to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the >>> cake. >>> >> I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of >>> the LF >>> >> time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone >>> offsets, >>> >> half zones, etc. >>> >> Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. >>> Simple >>> >> LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality >>> receivers >>> >> I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any >>> filtering. >>> >> Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you >>> just >>> >> have to stick a display on at that point. >>> >> Regards >>> >> Paul >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:11 PM, ed breya wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Paul, >>> >>> If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about >>> a >>> >>> TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make >>> the 60 >>> >>> kHz from the 10 MHz. >>> >>> >>> >>> For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and >>> 10 >>> >>> kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz >>> available. >>> >>> Some fairly
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
The UnusualElectronics Chronverter with NEO 6 GPS, 9.6 MHz oscillator. dividers and such are all up and working. Watching GPS time, Spectracoms and Truetime clocks all tick at the same time while listening to WWV. exactly as they should. Now I have a alternate for wall clocks should WWVB be turned off. Though that said the next step is to test those out by setting up an antenna. Then time to mount everything in a case. If anyone else follows this path let me know offline happy to help you. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:36 AM, paul swed wrote: > Its a LPF and its not effecting anything. Square waves worked fine > actually. But do want to be able to feed an antenna so a bit of filtering > plus the loops stick should do the job. > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> HI >> >> If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the >> WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the >> components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal…. >> >> Bob >> >> > On Aug 28, 2018, at 9:33 PM, paul swed wrote: >> > >> > LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and >> > anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers. >> > Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it >> really >> > is time for GPS a neo. >> > Looking very good. >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:29 PM, paul swed wrote: >> > >> >> Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in >> fact >> >> the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. >> Clearly >> >> the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with >> GPS >> >> as its designed for. >> >> Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed >> time >> >> into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. >> Its >> >> impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way. >> >> GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility. >> >> Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If >> it >> >> does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 >> am >> >> and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just >> nice >> >> to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the >> cake. >> >> I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of >> the LF >> >> time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone >> offsets, >> >> half zones, etc. >> >> Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. >> Simple >> >> LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality >> receivers >> >> I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any >> filtering. >> >> Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you >> just >> >> have to stick a display on at that point. >> >> Regards >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:11 PM, ed breya wrote: >> >> >> >>> Paul, >> >>> If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a >> >>> TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make >> the 60 >> >>> kHz from the 10 MHz. >> >>> >> >>> For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 >> >>> kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz >> available. >> >>> Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up >> >>> sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as >> inverters and >> >>> self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference >> to >> >>> logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, >> you'd >> >>> still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with. >> >>> >> >>> The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then >> >>> divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would >> work too. >> >>> It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high >> at 6 >> >>> MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily >> >>> available parts. >> >>> >> >>> Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are >> >>> more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type >> stuff >> >>> - you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure. >> >>> >> >>> Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 >> MHz >> >>> crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks >> available for >> >>> I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I >> think >> >>> would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each >> HC390 >> >>> is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable >> >>> separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s >> available. >> >>> >> >>> Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with >> >>>
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Mark OK I did indeed find what you suggested pretty neat most likely will order one and see whats what. That certainly simplifies old 60 KHz and in fact may be traceable. Pretty amazing. On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:39 AM, paul swed wrote: > Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious. Indeed at that > cost it would be great if it did produce 60 KHz as it would eliminate the > whole counter chain + power. The chronverter wants GPS data so its a nice > answer. > I have some 6s here so will start with that. Love low power and crazy > cheap technology. > Regards > Paul. > WB8TSL > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 9:52 PM, Mark Sims wrote: > >> >> Like I mentioned before, get a $10-ish Ublox Neo7 board/antenna off of >> Ebay, program one of the Ublox pulse output pins for 60 kHz. Add your >> favorite microprocessor to talk to the Ublox and drive the modulator. The >> Ublox 60kHz output should be more than accurate and stable enough to do the >> job. >> >> I don't know how well 77.5 kHz for DCF would work, but I suspect it might >> work. >> >> >> >> >If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a >> TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the >> 60 kHz from the 10 MHz. >> >> For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 >> kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz >> available >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi Even when dividing from 48 MHz straight to 60 KHz, the uBlox is going to do a pulse drop / pulse add to keep things on frequency. For a wall clock that probably is not an issue. For a phase locking receiver it’s not quite as clear. The 60 KHz edge is going to hop by about 21 ns every so often. If the TCXO is running at ~0.1 ppm high or low, it’ll do it around 5 times a second. If the newer parts run both edges or a higher counter drive frequency, you would get more steps per second, but smaller steps. Bob > On Aug 29, 2018, at 3:42 PM, Mark Sims wrote: > > The Ublox 7 has two programmable "timepulse" outputs. The default freqs are > (I think) 1 PPS and 10 MHz.I don't remember if the Ublox 6 has one or two > outputs... also some of the earlier Ublox receivers have limits on the range > you can set the output(s) to (like 1 kHz). Lady Heather can program the > outputs (start up with /rxu to force Ublox binary mode). The pulse output > control commands are in the "P" menu. > > You may have to bodge a wire onto the Ublox module to get access to > timepulse2 on those cheap Ublox7 boards. I bought a couple that brought TP2 > out to a pad. > > -- > >> Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Mark I looked at the 7 and the pulse out wasn't obvious. Indeed at that cost it would be great if it did produce 60 KHz as it would eliminate the whole counter chain + power. The chronverter wants GPS data so its a nice answer. I have some 6s here so will start with that. Love low power and crazy cheap technology. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 9:52 PM, Mark Sims wrote: > > Like I mentioned before, get a $10-ish Ublox Neo7 board/antenna off of > Ebay, program one of the Ublox pulse output pins for 60 kHz. Add your > favorite microprocessor to talk to the Ublox and drive the modulator. The > Ublox 60kHz output should be more than accurate and stable enough to do the > job. > > I don't know how well 77.5 kHz for DCF would work, but I suspect it might > work. > > > > >If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a > TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the > 60 kHz from the 10 MHz. > > For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 > kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz > available > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Its a LPF and its not effecting anything. Square waves worked fine actually. But do want to be able to feed an antenna so a bit of filtering plus the loops stick should do the job. On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > HI > > If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the > WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the > components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal…. > > Bob > > > On Aug 28, 2018, at 9:33 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and > > anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers. > > Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it > really > > is time for GPS a neo. > > Looking very good. > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:29 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > >> Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact > >> the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. > Clearly > >> the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with > GPS > >> as its designed for. > >> Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed > time > >> into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. > Its > >> impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way. > >> GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility. > >> Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If > it > >> does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am > >> and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just > nice > >> to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the > cake. > >> I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the > LF > >> time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone > offsets, > >> half zones, etc. > >> Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. > Simple > >> LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality > receivers > >> I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any > filtering. > >> Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you > just > >> have to stick a display on at that point. > >> Regards > >> Paul > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:11 PM, ed breya wrote: > >> > >>> Paul, > >>> If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a > >>> TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make > the 60 > >>> kHz from the 10 MHz. > >>> > >>> For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 > >>> kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz > available. > >>> Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up > >>> sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters > and > >>> self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to > >>> logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, > you'd > >>> still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with. > >>> > >>> The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then > >>> divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work > too. > >>> It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at > 6 > >>> MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily > >>> available parts. > >>> > >>> Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are > >>> more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type > stuff > >>> - you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure. > >>> > >>> Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 > MHz > >>> crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks > available for > >>> I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I > think > >>> would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each > HC390 > >>> is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable > >>> separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s > available. > >>> > >>> Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with > >>> HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, > BPF 6 > >>> MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f, > >>> 120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390. > >>> > >>> Ed > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > >>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >> > >> > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
HI If you are feeding “Time Nuts” gear, a fancy filter on the output of the WWVB gizmo may be an issue. Temperature impacts the value of the components and that value change impacts the phase of the signal…. Bob > On Aug 28, 2018, at 9:33 PM, paul swed wrote: > > LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and > anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers. > Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it really > is time for GPS a neo. > Looking very good. > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:29 PM, paul swed wrote: > >> Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact >> the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. Clearly >> the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with GPS >> as its designed for. >> Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed time >> into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. Its >> impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way. >> GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility. >> Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If it >> does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am >> and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just nice >> to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the cake. >> I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the LF >> time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone offsets, >> half zones, etc. >> Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. Simple >> LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality receivers >> I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any filtering. >> Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you just >> have to stick a display on at that point. >> Regards >> Paul >> >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:11 PM, ed breya wrote: >> >>> Paul, >>> If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a >>> TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the 60 >>> kHz from the 10 MHz. >>> >>> For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 >>> kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz available. >>> Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up >>> sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters and >>> self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to >>> logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, you'd >>> still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with. >>> >>> The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then >>> divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work too. >>> It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at 6 >>> MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily >>> available parts. >>> >>> Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are >>> more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type stuff >>> - you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure. >>> >>> Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz >>> crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available for >>> I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I think >>> would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each HC390 >>> is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable >>> separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s available. >>> >>> Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with >>> HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF 6 >>> MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f, >>> 120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ >>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
LPF filter added 2.2mH choke to a .0022uf cap 1K R pretty simple and anttenuators and isolation to drive up to 4 receivers. Have not looked at the power amp and loops stick antenna yet. But it really is time for GPS a neo. Looking very good. On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:29 PM, paul swed wrote: > Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact > the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. Clearly > the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with GPS > as its designed for. > Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed time > into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. Its > impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way. > GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility. > Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If it > does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am > and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just nice > to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the cake. > I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the LF > time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone offsets, > half zones, etc. > Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. Simple > LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality receivers > I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any filtering. > Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you just > have to stick a display on at that point. > Regards > Paul > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:11 PM, ed breya wrote: > >> Paul, >> If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a >> TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the 60 >> kHz from the 10 MHz. >> >> For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 >> kHz and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz available. >> Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up >> sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters and >> self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to >> logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, you'd >> still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with. >> >> The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then >> divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work too. >> It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at 6 >> MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily >> available parts. >> >> Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are >> more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type stuff >> - you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure. >> >> Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz >> crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available for >> I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I think >> would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each HC390 >> is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable >> separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s available. >> >> Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with >> HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF 6 >> MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f, >> 120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390. >> >> Ed >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Ed appreciate the details but no intent to generally run a GPSDO in fact the 5 V @ 50 ma is a serious power pig. The chronverter draws 5 ma. Clearly the TTL is a heater. Chuckle. I do want to drive the chronverter with GPS as its designed for. Whats pretty interesting is you can adjust its offset. I just jammed time into it several days and its been fairly good with power ups and down. Its impressive. Though not in an ultimate time-nuts way. GPS just assures it is accurate. But there is a lot of flexibility. Main goal of this whole project is to replace wwvb if it goes away. If it does the project doesn't even have to run 24/7. Fire up at 10 pm to 3 am and power down. Thats enough to set my wall clocks for a day. Its just nice to know it can also set the spectracoms and Truetimes. Icing on the cake. I am impressed with what Dave did with the 8 pin pic. He has all of the LF time signals in there. (No wwvb BPSK though) DSTs settings, zone offsets, half zones, etc. Just looking at low pass filters for the 60 KHz ttl out right now. Simple LR or RC. Since this particular output feeds coax to the quality receivers I don't need to be that careful. Its working great without any filtering. Reality if it draws little power I will let it run 24/7 but then you just have to stick a display on at that point. Regards Paul On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 7:11 PM, ed breya wrote: > Paul, > If you're going to reference it from a GPSDO anyway, why worry about a > TCXO reference (and power too, for that matter). You can easily make the 60 > kHz from the 10 MHz. > > For example, with two 74HC390s and a 74HC86 you can make 50 kHz and 10 kHz > and mix them with one EXOR section of the '86 to have 60 kHz available. > Some fairly simple bandpass filtering should select and clean it up > sufficiently. Two other sections of the '86 can be set up as inverters and > self-biased as amplifiers - one to convert the 10 MHz sine reference to > logic, and the other from the filter output to logic, if needed. And, you'd > still have a divide by 5 and an EXOR left over to fool around with. > > The same parts and process can be done at a higher frequency and then > divided down afterward. (5+1) MHz/100, and (500+100) kHz/10 would work too. > It depends on what frequency you prefer for the BPF. If you go high at 6 > MHz, you then have the option to make a crystal filter from readily > available parts. > > Going the high way also provides for higher logic frequencies that are > more or less in sync, in case you want to do any I-Q modulation type stuff > - you can even use synchronous counters instead, to really make sure. > > Overall, I think I'd recommend going at 5+1= 6 MHz, filtering with 6 MHz > crystals, then dividing down to 60 kHz, with 2f and 4f clocks available for > I-Q use. I sketched out a quickie circuit that's quite simple and I think > would do. It would take two HC390s for the dividing, as before. Each HC390 > is two divide by 10 counters, including a 1/2 and 1/5 in each, usable > separately. So, with two parts, there are four 1/5s and four 1/2s available. > > Here's a verbal process description: 10 MHz sine convert to logic with > HC86, 10 MHz/2=5, 10 MHz/10=1 with first HC390, add 5+1=6 with EXOR, BPF 6 > MHz, convert to logic with HC86, 6 Mhz/25=240 kHz=4f, 240/2=120 kHz=2f, > 120/2=60 kHz=f, with second HC390. > > Ed > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Totally locked up just fine its looking very good. What interesting is the chronverter actually puts out the correct julien date for the old truetimes. From this point its time to get a gps unit hooked up to the chronverter and then filtering and an amplifier to drive a loop stick antenna. Think that may radiate enough to cover the house. Lastly putting the whole think in a rack unit. To hack a DC 468 case or not. That is the question. Suspect the answer is that would look nice. Regards Paul On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:57 PM, paul swed wrote: > Yup running it without any filtering at the moment. Just completed the > modulator using a tri-state 74ls125. Works well. > But now the real test, does the symetricom lock to the chroneverter? As I > type this it just did. Running about -50 db. Now for the true time. > Regards > Paul > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi >> >> The clock could care less if the harmonics are at -10 dbc or -100 ….. >> >> Bob >> >> > On Aug 28, 2018, at 2:54 PM, paul swed wrote: >> > >> > Well the 9.6 MHZ/160 is working really well. The vectron VTO is .032 Hz >> > high and when heated to 100 drops to .005 Hz. >> > Carrier lights turn on ASAP on the spectracoms and truetimes. So time to >> > add the modulator and some low pass filtering and then antennuate to >> > something like -60 to -70 db for the good clocks. >> > Then finally back to the chronverter and adding gps to it for the >> correct >> > time. >> > Regards >> > Paul >> > >> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:00 PM, paul swed >> wrote: >> > >> >> Ed >> >> Thanks for the clue. Well on the way with the 9.6 MHz. But I think I >> may >> >> also have something in the 15.360 range. >> >> Darn soldered things to quickly. :-) >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:50 PM, ed breya wrote: >> >> >> >>> I remember I have a bunch of 15.360 MHz TCXOs that were very common - >> I >> >>> think they came from some big old cell phones I junked out long ago - >> you >> >>> know, the kind that were bolted into the car. This is still a standard >> >>> frequency, and it would be nice for making 60 kHz by simply diving by >> 256. >> >>> A quickie search for modern ones shows this as an example: >> >>> >> >>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3/AST3TQ-28-461101.pdf >> >>> >> >>> I believe this class of parts will easily do the job, and there are >> >>> likely lesser, cheaper ones that would suffice. >> >>> >> >>> Ed >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ___ >> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ >> >>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > ___ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> > and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out > >> the > >>> lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO. > >>> I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its > .05 > >>> PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer. > >>> I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were > >> off > >>> by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting > >> that > >>> all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not > TCXOs. > >>> A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation. > >>> So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for. > >>> Regards > >>> Paul > >>> WB8TSL > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher wrote: > >>> > >>>> Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Mike B. Feher, N4FS > >>>> > >>>> 89 Arnold Blvd. > >>>> > >>>> Howell NJ 07731 > >>>> > >>>> 848-245-9115 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -Original Message- > >>>> From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bob > >> kb8tq > >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM > >>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > >>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. > >>>> That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an > >> OCXO > >>>> will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com > > > >>>> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. > >>>> > >>>>> Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though > >>>> > >>>>> they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed < >> paulsw...@gmail.com> > >>>> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed < >>>> paulsw...@gmail.com> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. > >>>> > >>>>>>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. > >>>> > >>>>>>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the > >>>> > >>>>>>> de-psk-er experiments. > >>>> > >>>>>>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I > >>>> > >>>>>>> recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an > >>>> > >>>>>>> external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting > >>>> lazy these days. > >>>> > >>>>>>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several > >>>> > >>>>>>> cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. > >>>> > >>>>>>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. > >>>> > >>>>>>> Regards > >>>> > >>>>>>> Paul. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>&
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Well tinkering around and have 20 X 13 MHz vectron TCXOs. I have to say impressive. Ran it from 73-100 degrees. Its starts 40 Hz low and only moves 5 Hz over the range. Just my luck no 12 MHz units. Though I do have a number of 9.6 Mhz vectron and div 160 gets 60 KHz. They are actually only VTOs and have no specs on them. But they do run at 5V with no smoke. Will see as 160 is a number I can work with chip wise. As I say the phase tracking clocks are tight so no wiggle room. Did test the vectron VTO's. No markings from 73-100 degrees 6 hertz temp up freq down. Will have to add a pot with a stable reference for the Vtune. But appears good enough for what I need. One day when bored I could add a tempsnsor and opamp to correct even that. Now to dig up the divider chips and figure out how I want to mount the VTO. Regards Paul. On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > One of the “interesting” things about the phase modulation on WWVB is that > it does not get converted to > AM (and thus mess things up) in the front end filters of the typical > watches and clocks. The filters also do > not strip off the AM modulation sidebands of the signal. One would *guess* > that the filters have to be at least > 20Hz wide (+/- 10 Hz relative to 60,000 Hz) to make this happen. > > Bob > > > On Aug 27, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Larry McDavid wrote: > > > > Tim, there is indeed a consumer clock that uses only the BPSK modulation > on WWVB. It is an "ULTRATOMIC" clock by La Crosse and has available on > Amazon for over a year now. I have two of these clocks. They are *vastly* > more sensitive than the usual "atomic" AM clocks. My actual experience is > that these clocks will sync to WWVB within 10 minutes any time of day, > completely unlike the usual AM "atomic" clocks. > > > > Several years ago I had radiant barrier thermal insulation installed in > my home attic; it forms essentially an aluminum umbrella over my home, an > unexpected result. I had to relocate all my AM "atomic" clocks to (the > inside of) outside walls for them to sync overnight. However, the > ULTRATOMIC clocks will sync within 10 minutes any time of day, anywhere > within my home. > > > > But, so far as I can determine, this one rather large analog-display La > Crosse clock is the only consumer BPSK clock available. It uses two or four > C-cells for power and claims up to 6 years "battery" life. I installed two > C-cells and they were only slightly depleted after one year. The clock can > be configured for time zone and to inhibit motion of the second hand > between midnight and 5 am. For me, one advantage is that the clock face is > large enough that I can read it without my glasses! > > > > Look here: > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-404-1235UA-SS- > UltrAtomic-Stainless/dp/B01CCHXTE2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8& > qid=1535393731=8-3=la+crosse+ultratomic > > > > or search ULTRATOMIC La Crosse on Amazon. > > > > Tom Van Baak did a tear-down has many pictures posted on his website; > look here: > > > > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ > > > > Larry > > > > > > On 8/27/2018 8:12 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > ... > >> Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects > >> the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea > how > >> it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You > might > >> think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude > >> modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a > >> single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability. > >> Tim N3QE... > > > > -- > > Best wishes, > > > > Larry McDavid W6FUB > > Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi One of the “interesting” things about the phase modulation on WWVB is that it does not get converted to AM (and thus mess things up) in the front end filters of the typical watches and clocks. The filters also do not strip off the AM modulation sidebands of the signal. One would *guess* that the filters have to be at least 20Hz wide (+/- 10 Hz relative to 60,000 Hz) to make this happen. Bob > On Aug 27, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Larry McDavid wrote: > > Tim, there is indeed a consumer clock that uses only the BPSK modulation on > WWVB. It is an "ULTRATOMIC" clock by La Crosse and has available on Amazon > for over a year now. I have two of these clocks. They are *vastly* more > sensitive than the usual "atomic" AM clocks. My actual experience is that > these clocks will sync to WWVB within 10 minutes any time of day, completely > unlike the usual AM "atomic" clocks. > > Several years ago I had radiant barrier thermal insulation installed in my > home attic; it forms essentially an aluminum umbrella over my home, an > unexpected result. I had to relocate all my AM "atomic" clocks to (the inside > of) outside walls for them to sync overnight. However, the ULTRATOMIC clocks > will sync within 10 minutes any time of day, anywhere within my home. > > But, so far as I can determine, this one rather large analog-display La > Crosse clock is the only consumer BPSK clock available. It uses two or four > C-cells for power and claims up to 6 years "battery" life. I installed two > C-cells and they were only slightly depleted after one year. The clock can be > configured for time zone and to inhibit motion of the second hand between > midnight and 5 am. For me, one advantage is that the clock face is large > enough that I can read it without my glasses! > > Look here: > > https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-404-1235UA-SS-UltrAtomic-Stainless/dp/B01CCHXTE2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1535393731=8-3=la+crosse+ultratomic > > or search ULTRATOMIC La Crosse on Amazon. > > Tom Van Baak did a tear-down has many pictures posted on his website; look > here: > > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ > > Larry > > > On 8/27/2018 8:12 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > ... >> Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects >> the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how >> it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might >> think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude >> modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a >> single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability. >> Tim N3QE... > > -- > Best wishes, > > Larry McDavid W6FUB > Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Tim, there is indeed a consumer clock that uses only the BPSK modulation on WWVB. It is an "ULTRATOMIC" clock by La Crosse and has available on Amazon for over a year now. I have two of these clocks. They are *vastly* more sensitive than the usual "atomic" AM clocks. My actual experience is that these clocks will sync to WWVB within 10 minutes any time of day, completely unlike the usual AM "atomic" clocks. Several years ago I had radiant barrier thermal insulation installed in my home attic; it forms essentially an aluminum umbrella over my home, an unexpected result. I had to relocate all my AM "atomic" clocks to (the inside of) outside walls for them to sync overnight. However, the ULTRATOMIC clocks will sync within 10 minutes any time of day, anywhere within my home. But, so far as I can determine, this one rather large analog-display La Crosse clock is the only consumer BPSK clock available. It uses two or four C-cells for power and claims up to 6 years "battery" life. I installed two C-cells and they were only slightly depleted after one year. The clock can be configured for time zone and to inhibit motion of the second hand between midnight and 5 am. For me, one advantage is that the clock face is large enough that I can read it without my glasses! Look here: https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-404-1235UA-SS-UltrAtomic-Stainless/dp/B01CCHXTE2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1535393731=8-3=la+crosse+ultratomic or search ULTRATOMIC La Crosse on Amazon. Tom Van Baak did a tear-down has many pictures posted on his website; look here: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ Larry On 8/27/2018 8:12 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: ... Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability. Tim N3QE... -- Best wishes, Larry McDavid W6FUB Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly rational temperatures. That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal. Simply to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would require a bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz. For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at least ten … again back into the 10’s of Hz range. The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one direction. You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that device. Bob > On Aug 27, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end > filter (not as an oscillator). > > Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You can > actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in an > oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a couple > seconds before dying off.). > > This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a more > than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are > demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using amplitude > modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s pulses. > And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 ppm. > > It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and > "loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine. > > Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects > the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how > it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might > think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude > modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a > single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability. > > Tim N3QE > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:40 AM Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi >> >> One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts. >> >> One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million. >> >> One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM. >> >> One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million. >> >> If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the >> incoming signal, >> it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the >> sub half ppm >> range are not uncommon. >> >> So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall clock, >> they aren’t phase locking >> an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this >> is going to feed >> TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be >> part of >> the deal. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 27, 2018, at 10:19 AM, paul swed wrote: >>> >>> OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something >>> that works without a power sucking oven. >>> But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr >>> Google seems to know all. >>> That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight. >> +/- >>> .6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out >> the >>> lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO. >>> I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05 >>> PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer. >>> I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were >> off >>> by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting >> that >>> all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs. >>> A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation. >>> So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for. >>> Regards >>> Paul >>> WB8TSL >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher wrote: >>> >>>> Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike B. Feher, N4FS >>>> >>>> 89 Arnold Blvd. >>>> >>>> Howell NJ 07731 >>>> >>>> 848-245-9115 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bob >> kb8tq >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM >>>> To: Discuss
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end filter (not as an oscillator). Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You can actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in an oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a couple seconds before dying off.). This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a more than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using amplitude modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s pulses. And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 ppm. It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and "loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine. Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also expects the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea how it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You might think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability. Tim N3QE On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:40 AM Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts. > > One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million. > > One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM. > > One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million. > > If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the > incoming signal, > it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the > sub half ppm > range are not uncommon. > > So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall clock, > they aren’t phase locking > an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this > is going to feed > TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be > part of > the deal. > > Bob > > > On Aug 27, 2018, at 10:19 AM, paul swed wrote: > > > > OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something > > that works without a power sucking oven. > > But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr > > Google seems to know all. > > That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight. > +/- > > .6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out > the > > lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO. > > I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05 > > PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer. > > I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were > off > > by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting > that > > all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs. > > A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation. > > So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher wrote: > > > >> Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike > >> > >> > >> > >> Mike B. Feher, N4FS > >> > >> 89 Arnold Blvd. > >> > >> Howell NJ 07731 > >> > >> 848-245-9115 > >> > >> > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bob > kb8tq > >> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> > >> > >> Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. > >> That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an > OCXO > >> will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. > >> > >> > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> > >> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. > >> > >>> Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though > >> > >>> they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. > >> >
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts. One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million. One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM. One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million. If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the incoming signal, it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in the sub half ppm range are not uncommon. So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall clock, they aren’t phase locking an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If this is going to feed TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may be part of the deal. Bob > On Aug 27, 2018, at 10:19 AM, paul swed wrote: > > OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something > that works without a power sucking oven. > But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr > Google seems to know all. > That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight. +/- > .6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out the > lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO. > I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05 > PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer. > I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were off > by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting that > all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs. > A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation. > So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher wrote: > >> Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike >> >> >> >> Mike B. Feher, N4FS >> >> 89 Arnold Blvd. >> >> Howell NJ 07731 >> >> 848-245-9115 >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq >> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress >> >> >> >> Hi >> >> >> >> Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. >> That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO >> will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. >> >> >> >> Bob >> >> >> >>> On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> >> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. >> >>> Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though >> >>> they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> >> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed < > paulsw...@gmail.com> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. >> >>>>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. >> >>>>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the >> >>>>> de-psk-er experiments. >> >>>>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I >> >>>>> recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an >> >>>>> external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting >> lazy these days. >> >>>>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several >> >>>>> cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. >> >>>>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. >> >>>>> Regards >> >>>>> Paul. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto:kb...@n1k.org> >> kb...@n1k.org> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi >> >>>>>> >> >
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find something that works without a power sucking oven. But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. Mr Google seems to know all. That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is tight. +/- .6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure out the lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO. I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its .05 PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer. I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens were off by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting that all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not TCXOs. A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation. So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher wrote: > Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike > > > > Mike B. Feher, N4FS > > 89 Arnold Blvd. > > Howell NJ 07731 > > 848-245-9115 > > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress > > > > Hi > > > > Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. > That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO > will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. > > > > Bob > > > > > On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> > paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. > > > Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though > > > they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> > paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. > > >> > > >> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed < paulsw...@gmail.com> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. > > >>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. > > >>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the > > >>> de-psk-er experiments. > > >>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I > > >>> recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an > > >>> external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting > lazy these days. > > >>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several > > >>> cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. > > >>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. > > >>> Regards > > >>> Paul. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto:kb...@n1k.org> > kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi > > >>>> > > >>>> A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will > > >>>> turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a > > >>>> lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz. > > >>>> In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d > > >>>> probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or > > >>>> something similar. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bob > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> > paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a > > >>>>> divider chain and such your idea makes great sense. > > >>>>> Then filter to 60 KHz. > > >>>>> But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. > > >>>>> Bounces around a fair amount. > > >>>>> There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not > > >>>>> actually > > >>>> be > > >>>>>
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ 07731 848-245-9115 -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress Hi Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. Bob > On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> > paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. > Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though > they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. > > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> > paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. >> >> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> >> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. >>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. >>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the >>> de-psk-er experiments. >>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I >>> recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an >>> external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy >>> these days. >>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several >>> cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. >>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. >>> Regards >>> Paul. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto:kb...@n1k.org> >>> kb...@n1k.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will >>>> turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a >>>> lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz. >>>> In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d >>>> probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or >>>> something similar. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> >>>>> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a >>>>> divider chain and such your idea makes great sense. >>>>> Then filter to 60 KHz. >>>>> But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. >>>>> Bounces around a fair amount. >>>>> There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not >>>>> actually >>>> be >>>>> phase stable. >>>>> It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its >>>> simply >>>>> not good enough. >>>>> I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was >>>>> intended >>>> for. >>>>> Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of >>>> coding >>>>> and doing exactly what Dave did. >>>>> Regards >>>>> Paul >>>>> WB8TSL >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto:kb...@n1k.org> >>>>> kb...@n1k.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> >>>>>> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a >>>>>> pair >>>> of >>>>>> resistors. >>>>>> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate >>>> control. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed < <mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 ppm. That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what an OCXO will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. Bob > On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. > Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though they > all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. > > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed wrote: > >> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. >> >> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed wrote: >> >>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. >>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. >>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the >>> de-psk-er experiments. >>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall >>> and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal >>> input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days. >>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards >>> of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. >>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. >>> Regards >>> Paul. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >>> Hi A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar. Bob > On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider > chain and such your idea makes great sense. > Then filter to 60 KHz. > But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. > Bounces around a fair amount. > There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be > phase stable. > It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply > not good enough. > I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended for. > Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of coding > and doing exactly what Dave did. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi >> >> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of >> resistors. >> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate control. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed wrote: >>> >>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks >>> like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks >> yet. >>> >>> I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few >>> resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by >> -14 >>> db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter >> and >>> it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time. >>> There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. >> Just >>> did not have any. >>> >>> The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates >>> any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer. >>> >>> The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats >>> reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you >> do >>> not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after >>> setting the time. >>> >>> Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power. >>> >>> All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away. >>> As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those >>> silly politicians screw with it again. >>> >>> Speculation >>> The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations >>> along with the time codes for them. >>> >>> Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the >>> frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks >>> have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the >> output >>> of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening >> on >>> a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not >>> good enough. Or
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed wrote: > My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed wrote: > >> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. >> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. >> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the >> de-psk-er experiments. >> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall >> and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal >> input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days. >> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards >> of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. >> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. >> Regards >> Paul. >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn >>> the square wave >>> into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply >>> components out there that >>> work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the >>> way to go. I’d probably >>> use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something >>> similar. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> > On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed wrote: >>> > >>> > Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider >>> > chain and such your idea makes great sense. >>> > Then filter to 60 KHz. >>> > But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. >>> > Bounces around a fair amount. >>> > There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually >>> be >>> > phase stable. >>> > It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its >>> simply >>> > not good enough. >>> > I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended >>> for. >>> > Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of >>> coding >>> > and doing exactly what Dave did. >>> > Regards >>> > Paul >>> > WB8TSL >>> > >>> > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >>> > >>> >> Hi >>> >> >>> >> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair >>> of >>> >> resistors. >>> >> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate >>> control. >>> >> >>> >> Bob >>> >> >>> >>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end >>> clocks >>> >>> like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy >>> clocks >>> >> yet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a >>> few >>> >>> resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops >>> by >>> >> -14 >>> >>> db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the >>> chronverter >>> >> and >>> >>> it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time. >>> >>> There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will >>> work. >>> >> Just >>> >>> did not have any. >>> >>> >>> >>> The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This >>> eliminates >>> >>> any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer. >>> >>> >>> >>> The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats >>> >>> reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if >>> you >>> >> do >>> >>> not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after >>> >>> setting the time. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power. >>> >>> >>> >>> All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away. >>> >>> As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if >>> those >>> >>> silly politicians screw with it again. >>> >>> >>> >>> Speculation >>> >>> The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF >>> stations >>> >>> along with the time codes for them. >>> >>> >>> >>> Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the >>> >>> frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these >>> clocks >>> >>> have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the >>> >> output >>> >>> of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though >>> listening >>> >> on >>> >>> a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its >>> just not >>> >>> good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it >>> gaps >>> >>> the PLL in these clocks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Next steps >>> >>> >>> >>> - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator. >>> >>> - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or >>> >> below >>> >>> 30uv@30 meters. >>> >>> - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed wrote: > Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. > Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. > Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the > de-psk-er experiments. > Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall > and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal > input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days. > I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards > of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. > :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. > Regards > Paul. > > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi >> >> A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn >> the square wave >> into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply >> components out there that >> work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way >> to go. I’d probably >> use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar. >> >> Bob >> >> > On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed wrote: >> > >> > Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider >> > chain and such your idea makes great sense. >> > Then filter to 60 KHz. >> > But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. >> > Bounces around a fair amount. >> > There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be >> > phase stable. >> > It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply >> > not good enough. >> > I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended >> for. >> > Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of >> coding >> > and doing exactly what Dave did. >> > Regards >> > Paul >> > WB8TSL >> > >> > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> > >> >> Hi >> >> >> >> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of >> >> resistors. >> >> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate >> control. >> >> >> >> Bob >> >> >> >>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed wrote: >> >>> >> >>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end >> clocks >> >>> like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks >> >> yet. >> >>> >> >>> I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a >> few >> >>> resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops >> by >> >> -14 >> >>> db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter >> >> and >> >>> it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time. >> >>> There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. >> >> Just >> >>> did not have any. >> >>> >> >>> The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This >> eliminates >> >>> any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer. >> >>> >> >>> The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats >> >>> reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if >> you >> >> do >> >>> not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after >> >>> setting the time. >> >>> >> >>> Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power. >> >>> >> >>> All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away. >> >>> As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if >> those >> >>> silly politicians screw with it again. >> >>> >> >>> Speculation >> >>> The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations >> >>> along with the time codes for them. >> >>> >> >>> Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the >> >>> frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these >> clocks >> >>> have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the >> >> output >> >>> of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though >> listening >> >> on >> >>> a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just >> not >> >>> good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it >> gaps >> >>> the PLL in these clocks. >> >>> >> >>> Next steps >> >>> >> >>> - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator. >> >>> - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or >> >> below >> >>> 30uv@30 meters. >> >>> - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy) >> >>> - >> >>> - Box it up. >> >>> >> >>> Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy >> panelplex >> >>> display. >> >>> >> >>> Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go >> >> away. >> >>> Regards >> >>> Paul >> >>> WB8TSL >> >>> ___ >> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a divide. Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for the de-psk-er experiments. Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. Getting lazy these days. I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. Several cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. Regards Paul. On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate will turn > the square wave > into a sine. Not much to it since there are a lot of power supply > components out there that > work fine at 60 KHz. In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way > to go. I’d probably > use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or something similar. > > Bob > > > On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider > > chain and such your idea makes great sense. > > Then filter to 60 KHz. > > But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. > > Bounces around a fair amount. > > There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be > > phase stable. > > It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply > > not good enough. > > I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended > for. > > Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of coding > > and doing exactly what Dave did. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> > >> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of > >> resistors. > >> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate > control. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed wrote: > >>> > >>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end > clocks > >>> like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks > >> yet. > >>> > >>> I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a > few > >>> resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by > >> -14 > >>> db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter > >> and > >>> it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time. > >>> There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. > >> Just > >>> did not have any. > >>> > >>> The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This > eliminates > >>> any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer. > >>> > >>> The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats > >>> reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you > >> do > >>> not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after > >>> setting the time. > >>> > >>> Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power. > >>> > >>> All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away. > >>> As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if > those > >>> silly politicians screw with it again. > >>> > >>> Speculation > >>> The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations > >>> along with the time codes for them. > >>> > >>> Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the > >>> frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks > >>> have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the > >> output > >>> of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening > >> on > >>> a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just > not > >>> good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it > gaps > >>> the PLL in these clocks. > >>> > >>> Next steps > >>> > >>> - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator. > >>> - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or > >> below > >>> 30uv@30 meters. > >>> - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy) > >>> - > >>> - Box it up. > >>> > >>> Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex > >>> display. > >>> > >>> Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go > >> away. > >>> Regards > >>> Paul > >>> WB8TSL > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a divider chain and such your idea makes great sense. Then filter to 60 KHz. But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz high. Bounces around a fair amount. There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not actually be phase stable. It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms its simply not good enough. I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was intended for. Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch of coding and doing exactly what Dave did. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of > resistors. > Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate control. > > Bob > > > On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks > > like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks > yet. > > > > I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few > > resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by > -14 > > db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter > and > > it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time. > > There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. > Just > > did not have any. > > > > The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates > > any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer. > > > > The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats > > reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you > do > > not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after > > setting the time. > > > > Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power. > > > > All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away. > > As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those > > silly politicians screw with it again. > > > > Speculation > > The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations > > along with the time codes for them. > > > > Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the > > frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks > > have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the > output > > of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening > on > > a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not > > good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it gaps > > the PLL in these clocks. > > > > Next steps > > > > - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator. > > - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or > below > > 30uv@30 meters. > > - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy) > > - > > - Box it up. > > > > Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex > > display. > > > > Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go > away. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
Hi You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and a pair of resistors. Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the tristate control. Bob > On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed wrote: > > From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for high end clocks > like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the cheapy clocks yet. > > I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then with a few > resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the carrier drops by -14 > db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the chronverter and > it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the normal time. > There are far better modern single supply analog gates that will work. Just > did not have any. > > The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. This eliminates > any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term answer. > > The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock chip thats > reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So that even if you do > not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time correctly after > setting the time. > > Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low power. > > All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes away. > As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change DST if those > silly politicians screw with it again. > > Speculation > The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF stations > along with the time codes for them. > > Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I speculate the > frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All of these clocks > have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to measure the output > of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though listening on > a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe its just not > good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work because it gaps > the PLL in these clocks. > > Next steps > > - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external modulator. > - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying at or below > 30uv@30 meters. > - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy) > - > - Box it up. > > Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy panelplex > display. > > Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should WWVB go away. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
