RE: [tips] Hey Vegans! When Plants Communicate, Do You Listen?

[Mike Palij]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 07:34:34 -0700, Jim Clark wrote:

Seems that a lot here hinges on what the word "know" means.


For some reason this statement reminds me of Bill Clinton
when he said "It depends upon what the meaning of 'is" is..."
For those who don't know or have forgotten or are actively
repressing any memories from that period of time, see the
Wiki entry for a refresher:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton

So, let me put forward a "hypothetical":  a person is infected
by a flu virus.  It initiates an attack by the immune system which
produces antibodies to either eliminate the virus or put it into
a state where it can no longer attack the body.

Question: Is this "memory"?
Depending upon one's medical knowledge this may sound
like an odd question because our subjective experience of
memories (cognitive) represent a completely different system.
Then again, there are those with a different view; see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_immune_system#Immunological_memory

What does "memory" mean?  Oh, that reminds me, I need
to buy a new hard drive to back-up files on my PC --- I'm
running out of memory.


Does the response of an object to any treatment warrant
the label?


Is there some logical system or calculus that will allow us to
unambiguously answer this question?  Or does it depend
upon one's subjective definition or agreement with a group
convention?


Or does "know" imply something else, like awareness.


I don't think so, especially given that social cognitive psychologies
have shown how often human responses in social and non-social
situations are done unconsciously,  priming effects in an almost
"stimulus-response" situation.  Even if were to concede the
operation of "awareness" or "consciousness" one is stuck
with the problem that Sir John Eccles had in describing
consciousness as "consciousness1", "consciousness2",
"consciousness3",  and so on.


Even "they fight back" seems like a provocative and
perhaps unjustified wording, although not as egregious as "know."


Again, are you appealing to some abstract logical system or
subjectivity or social consensus for what these words mean?


Does an organism or object reacting imply "fighting back?"


If an immune system generate antibodies in response to a virus,
is it "fighting back"?  Or does your immune system have an
awareness that our brain's awareness is not aware of?


If I throw a rock up in the air, is it "fighting back" against gravity
when it falls to the ground?


Metaphorically or literally?  If "fighting back" mean "working in
opposition", then when anything is thrown away from a large
body, like a rock into the air from the surface of a planet, isn't
working in opposition to gravity?  With enough opposition it
might even escape the clutches of gravity and go out into space
with it will be attracted by the gravitational forces of other large
bodies.


Silly example, but does illustrate that "fighting back" does not
apply to all reactions of objects.


Metaphorically or literally?  Or should we avoid the whole problem
of using natural language and simply create a compute simulation
where we can operationally define "fighting back" by referring to
the operation of specific code?


Question is whether the reactions of plants to being eaten are
more akin to the rock or to some animate object that can "fight back"
and perhaps "know."


H, sounds like you think words have Buddha Nature.
For one view on what this means, see:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen/2013/11/do-words-have-buddha-nature-fighting-over-and-gnawing-at-rotting-bones-crunch-snap-howl-bark.html

Btw. Mu!

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu


On October-30-16 6:55 AM, Mike Palij wrote:

Plants apparently respond to "attacks" on them, such as eating
them. For a couple of examples. see:
http://daily.jstor.org/plants-know-when-they-are-being-eaten-and-they-fight-back/

There is an old story in Zen Buddhism about all living things having
Buddha nature and it is a sin to kill and eat, say, animals, because
of this.  But one day a novice asked a master about plants and
whether they had Buddha nature.  The mater responded "All
living things have Buddha nature".

The novice responded "So when we eats plant, they scream as we
eat them?'

The master responded "Yes, but they do so very quietly."

In contrast, on the Zombie series "The Walking Dead" Carl
makes the astute observation:

"Everything is food for something else."

Yes, indeed.



---
You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com.
To unsubscribe click here: 
http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5=T=tips=49800
or send a blank email to 
leave-49800-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu

RE: [tips] Hey Vegans! When Plants Communicate, Do You Listen?

[Jim Clark]

Seems that a lot here hinges on what the word "know" means. Does the response 
of an object to any treatment warrant the label? Or does "know" imply something 
else, like awareness. Even "they fight back" seems like a provocative and 
perhaps unjustified wording, although not as egregious as "know." Does an 
organism or object reacting imply "fighting back?" If I throw a rock up in the 
air, is it "fighting back" against gravity when it falls to the ground? Silly 
example, but does illustrate that "fighting back" does not apply to all 
reactions of objects. Question is whether the reactions of plants to being 
eaten are more akin to the rock or to some animate object that can "fight back" 
and perhaps "know."

Jim

Jim Clark
Professor & Chair of Psychology
University of Winnipeg
204-786-9757
Room 4L41A (4th Floor Lockhart)
www.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark


From: Mike Palij [mailto:m...@nyu.edu]
Sent: October-30-16 6:55 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Cc: Michael Palij
Subject: [tips] Hey Vegans! When Plants Communicate, Do You Listen?



Plants apparently respond to "attacks" on them, such as eating them.
For a couple of examples. see:
http://daily.jstor.org/plants-know-when-they-are-being-eaten-and-they-fight-back/

There is an old story in Zen Buddhism about all living things having
Buddha nature and it is a sin to kill and eat, say, animals, because
of this.  But one day a novice asked a master about plants and
whether they had Buddha nature.  The mater responded "All
living things have Buddha nature".

The responded "So when we eats plant, they scream as we
eat them?'

The master responded "Yes, but they do so very quietly."

In contrast, on the Zombie series "The Walking Dead" Carl
makes the astute observation:

"Everything is food for something else."

Yes, indeed.

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu




---

You are currently subscribed to tips as: 
j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca.

To unsubscribe click here: 
http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9=T=tips=49798

(It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken)

or send a blank email to 
leave-49798-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu

---
You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com.
To unsubscribe click here: 
http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5=T=tips=49799
or send a blank email to 
leave-49799-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu

[tips] Hey Vegans! When Plants Communicate, Do You Listen?

[Mike Palij]

Plants apparently respond to "attacks" on them, such as eating them.
For a couple of examples. see:
http://daily.jstor.org/plants-know-when-they-are-being-eaten-and-they-fight-back/

There is an old story in Zen Buddhism about all living things having
Buddha nature and it is a sin to kill and eat, say, animals, because
of this.  But one day a novice asked a master about plants and 
whether they had Buddha nature.  The mater responded "All
living things have Buddha nature".

The responded "So when we eats plant, they scream as we
eat them?'

The master responded "Yes, but they do so very quietly."

In contrast, on the Zombie series "The Walking Dead" Carl
makes the astute observation:

"Everything is food for something else."

Yes, indeed.

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu



---
You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com.
To unsubscribe click here: 
http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5=T=tips=49798
or send a blank email to 
leave-49798-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu