Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
As I heard the story and I'm afraid that I don't have a reference handy, is that Brady began training all the monkeys and used the half that learned the task first as the executives and the others as the yoked controls. He thereby potentially confounded nervous system reactivity with the effect of control responsibility. Later studies which used randomly assigned monkeys supposedly found the opposite results. Doug Wallen Emeritus Associate Professor Minnesota State University On Dec 21, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Michael Britt wrote: > Thanks Mike. I'll definitely have to check into these additional resources. > I read the Scientific American summary of the research by the authors and the > results he said he found was that the monkeys who knew when the shocks were > coming and who could do something to avoid them got MORE ulcers than the > monkeys who were yoked to them and could do nothing to avoid the shocks. I > thought the results were the other way around. Perhaps future researchers > discovered this (or were unable to replicate as you suggest below). MOre > investigation needed apparently. > > > Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > http://www.ThePsychFiles.com > Twitter: mbritt > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Mike Palij wrote: > >> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 05:23:12 -0800, Michael Britt wrote: >>> Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly >>> shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one >>> received >>> the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? The >>> latter >>> monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element of >>> unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? >>> Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, >> >> The original article that was summarized in the Scientific American article >> is: >> >> Brady, .I.V., Porter, R.W., Conrad, D.G., and Mason, J.W.: >> Avoidance behavior and the development of gastroduodenal ulcer. >> J. Exper. Anal. Behav., 1:69-72, 1958. >> >> One of the main problems with the research was that it was hard >> to replicate; see: >> >> Foltz, E.L. and Millett, F.E., Experimental psycho~matic disease >> states in monkeys. I. Peptic ulcer- 'executive monkeys', >> J. Surg. Res., 4 (1964) 445-453. >> >> Quoting from Foltz & Millett: >> >> |Our results do not support Brady's conclusions, that performance >> |by rhesus monkeys on a conditioned avoidance schedule of six >> |hours "on" and six hours "off" should produce peptic ulceration. >> |Conditions in our laboratory resembled those environmental conditions >> |described by Brady as closely as we could make them, and our >> |conditioned avoidance program was identical. >> >> For a comprehensive review of this and other research on the effects of >> stress see: >> G.B. Glavin, R. Murison, J.B. Overmier, W.P. Pare, H.K. Bakke, R.G. Henke, >> D.E. Hernandez >> The neurobiology of stress ulcers Review Article >> Brain Research Reviews, Volume 16, Issue 3, September-December 1991, >> Pages 301-343 >> >> -Mike Palij >> New York University >> m...@nyu.edu >> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=22483 >> or send a blank email to >> leave-22483-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: douglas.wal...@mnsu.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13183.a188af0bc920853d3673ab71c5f2a440&n=T&l=tips&o=22484 > or send a blank email to > leave-22484-13183.a188af0bc920853d3673ab71c5f2a...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22486 or send a blank email to leave-22486-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
This study is commonly cited in methodology textbooks as a good example of bad experimental design. Brady did not randomly assign monkeys to conditions; instead, the monkeys who responded most quickly were assigned to be the "executives," which could have been the crucial confound (e.g., the more rapid responders may have been more anxious, and in turn been more ulcer prone). As noted in previous TIPS messages, others (including my Emory psychiatry colleague Jay Weiss) were unable to replicate the Brady findings, so to my knowledge no major researchers take them seriously anymore. Here are two descriptions (hopefully, folks can access them): http://books.google.com/books?id=NyNCEWFs--YC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=brady+executive+monkey+flaw&source=bl&ots=-YfjuN3T5y&sig=Ntgk7aD0NNvzlK4x5Vlljc1ibh4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7ovUUIyZMIn89QSSpoH4DQ&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=brady%20executive%20monkey%20flaw&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=nww5IAAJ&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=brady+executive+monkey+study+flaw&source=bl&ots=rmAu3qWlqX&sig=w579Fnn9U19abQG5L97zFdfWhmQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UYzUUIquHoTM9QSk7oDwCg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=brady%20executive%20monkey%20study%20flaw&f=false Scott Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ph.D. Professor Department of Psychology, Room 473 Emory University 36 Eagle Row Atlanta, Georgia 30322 slii...@emory.edu; 404-727-1125 The Master in the Art of Living makes little distinction between his work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education and his recreation, his love and his intellectual passions. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing. To him - he is always doing both. - Zen Buddhist text (slightly modified) -Original Message- From: Michael Britt [mailto:mich...@thepsychfiles.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 11:14 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys Thanks Mike. I'll definitely have to check into these additional resources. I read the Scientific American summary of the research by the authors and the results he said he found was that the monkeys who knew when the shocks were coming and who could do something to avoid them got MORE ulcers than the monkeys who were yoked to them and could do nothing to avoid the shocks. I thought the results were the other way around. Perhaps future researchers discovered this (or were unable to replicate as you suggest below). MOre investigation needed apparently. Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Dec 21, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Mike Palij wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 05:23:12 -0800, Michael Britt wrote: > >Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were > >slightly >> shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one >> received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was >> coming? The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating >> that this element of unpredictability was really the important factor in >> stressful events? >> Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, > > The original article that was summarized in the Scientific American article > is: > > Brady, .I.V., Porter, R.W., Conrad, D.G., and Mason, J.W.: > Avoidance behavior and the development of gastroduodenal ulcer. > J. Exper. Anal. Behav., 1:69-72, 1958. > > One of the main problems with the research was that it was hard to > replicate; see: > > Foltz, E.L. and Millett, F.E., Experimental psycho~matic disease > states in monkeys. I. Peptic ulcer- 'executive monkeys', J. Surg. > Res., 4 (1964) 445-453. > > Quoting from Foltz & Millett: > > |Our results do not support Brady's conclusions, that performance by > |rhesus monkeys on a conditioned avoidance schedule of six hours "on" > |and six hours "off" should produce peptic ulceration. > |Conditions in our laboratory resembled those environmental conditions > |described by Brady as closely as we could make them, and our > |conditioned avoidance program was identical. > > For a comprehensive review of this and other research on the effects > of stress see: > G.B. Glavin, R. Murison, J.B. Overmier, W.P. Pare, H.K. Bakke, R.G. > Henke, D.E. Hernandez The neurobiology of stress ulcers Review Article > Brain Research Reviews, Volume 16, Issue 3, September-December 1991, > Pages 301-343 > > -Mike Palij > New York University > m...@nyu.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. > To
Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
Thanks Mike. I'll definitely have to check into these additional resources. I read the Scientific American summary of the research by the authors and the results he said he found was that the monkeys who knew when the shocks were coming and who could do something to avoid them got MORE ulcers than the monkeys who were yoked to them and could do nothing to avoid the shocks. I thought the results were the other way around. Perhaps future researchers discovered this (or were unable to replicate as you suggest below). MOre investigation needed apparently. Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Dec 21, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Mike Palij wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 05:23:12 -0800, Michael Britt wrote: > >Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly >> shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one >> received >> the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? The >> latter >> monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element of >> unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? >> Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, > > The original article that was summarized in the Scientific American article > is: > > Brady, .I.V., Porter, R.W., Conrad, D.G., and Mason, J.W.: > Avoidance behavior and the development of gastroduodenal ulcer. > J. Exper. Anal. Behav., 1:69-72, 1958. > > One of the main problems with the research was that it was hard > to replicate; see: > > Foltz, E.L. and Millett, F.E., Experimental psycho~matic disease > states in monkeys. I. Peptic ulcer- 'executive monkeys', > J. Surg. Res., 4 (1964) 445-453. > > Quoting from Foltz & Millett: > > |Our results do not support Brady's conclusions, that performance > |by rhesus monkeys on a conditioned avoidance schedule of six > |hours "on" and six hours "off" should produce peptic ulceration. > |Conditions in our laboratory resembled those environmental conditions > |described by Brady as closely as we could make them, and our > |conditioned avoidance program was identical. > > For a comprehensive review of this and other research on the effects of > stress see: > G.B. Glavin, R. Murison, J.B. Overmier, W.P. Pare, H.K. Bakke, R.G. Henke, > D.E. Hernandez > The neurobiology of stress ulcers Review Article > Brain Research Reviews, Volume 16, Issue 3, September-December 1991, > Pages 301-343 > > -Mike Palij > New York University > m...@nyu.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=22483 > or send a blank email to > leave-22483-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22484 or send a blank email to leave-22484-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 05:23:12 -0800, Michael Britt wrote: >Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element of unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, The original article that was summarized in the Scientific American article is: Brady, .I.V., Porter, R.W., Conrad, D.G., and Mason, J.W.: Avoidance behavior and the development of gastroduodenal ulcer. J. Exper. Anal. Behav., 1:69-72, 1958. One of the main problems with the research was that it was hard to replicate; see: Foltz, E.L. and Millett, F.E., Experimental psycho~matic disease states in monkeys. I. Peptic ulcer- 'executive monkeys', J. Surg. Res., 4 (1964) 445-453. Quoting from Foltz & Millett: |Our results do not support Brady's conclusions, that performance |by rhesus monkeys on a conditioned avoidance schedule of six |hours "on" and six hours "off" should produce peptic ulceration. |Conditions in our laboratory resembled those environmental conditions |described by Brady as closely as we could make them, and our |conditioned avoidance program was identical. For a comprehensive review of this and other research on the effects of stress see: G.B. Glavin, R. Murison, J.B. Overmier, W.P. Pare, H.K. Bakke, R.G. Henke, D.E. Hernandez The neurobiology of stress ulcers Review Article Brain Research Reviews, Volume 16, Issue 3, September-December 1991, Pages 301-343 -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22483 or send a blank email to leave-22483-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
Right! More rigorous replications failed. And then we discovered bacteria and antibiotics. On Dec 21, 2012, at 7:47 AM, John Kulig wrote: > The _original_ was Brady, 1958 Scientific American the "executive" > monkey study. In this study those that _had_ control developed ulcers ... > other studies dealt with predictability. It is my understanding the original > Brady study had design issues .. > > Brady, J. V. (1958). Ulcers in executive monkeys. Scientific American, > 199(4), 95-100.doi:10.1038/scientificamerican1058-95 > > == > John W. Kulig, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology > Coordinator, University Honors > Plymouth State University > Plymouth NH 03264 > == > > From: "Michael Britt" > To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:22:57 AM > Subject: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys > > Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly > shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one > received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? > The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element > of unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? > > Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, > > Michael > > Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > http://www.ThePsychFiles.com > Twitter: mbritt Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato pkbra...@hickorytech.net --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22482 or send a blank email to leave-22482-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
Actually, I had a brief Tip of the Tongue but the internet cured it :-) == John W. Kulig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Coordinator, University Honors Plymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 == - Original Message - From: "Michael Britt" To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:52:39 AM Subject: Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys Tips to the rescue again! THIS is why we have tips. Thanks so much John. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Dec 21, 2012, at 8:47 AM, John Kulig < ku...@mail.plymouth.edu > wrote: The _original_ was Brady, 1958 Scientific American the "executive" monkey study. In this study those that _had_ control developed ulcers ... other studies dealt with predictability. It is my understanding the original Brady study had design issues .. Brady, J. V. (1958). Ulcers in executive monkeys. Scientific American, 199 (4), 95-100. doi : 10.1038/scientificamerican1058-95 == John W. Kulig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Coordinator, University Honors Plymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 == - Original Message - From: "Michael Britt" < mich...@thepsychfiles.com > To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" < tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:22:57 AM Subject: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element of unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu . To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454&n=T&l=tips&o=22478 or send a blank email to leave-22478-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com . To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=22479 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-22479-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu . To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454&n=T&l=tips&o=22480 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-22480-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22481 or send a blank email to leave-22481-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
Tips to the rescue again! THIS is why we have tips. Thanks so much John. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Dec 21, 2012, at 8:47 AM, John Kulig wrote: > > > > > > > The _original_ was Brady, 1958 Scientific American the "executive" > monkey study. In this study those that _had_ control developed ulcers ... > other studies dealt with predictability. It is my understanding the original > Brady study had design issues .. > > Brady, J. V. (1958). Ulcers in executive monkeys. Scientific American, > 199(4), 95-100. doi:10.1038/scientificamerican1058-95 > > == > John W. Kulig, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology > Coordinator, University Honors > Plymouth State University > Plymouth NH 03264 > == > > From: "Michael Britt" > To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:22:57 AM > Subject: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys > > Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly > shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one > received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? > The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element > of unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? > > Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, > > Michael > > Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > http://www.ThePsychFiles.com > Twitter: mbritt > > > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454&n=T&l=tips&o=22478 > or send a blank email to > leave-22478-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=22479 > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) > or send a blank email to > leave-22479-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22480 or send a blank email to leave-22480-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys
The _original_ was Brady, 1958 Scientific American the "executive" monkey study. In this study those that _had_ control developed ulcers ... other studies dealt with predictability. It is my understanding the original Brady study had design issues .. Brady, J. V. (1958). Ulcers in executive monkeys. Scientific American, 199 (4), 95-100. doi : 10.1038/scientificamerican1058-95 == John W. Kulig, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Coordinator, University Honors Plymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 == - Original Message - From: "Michael Britt" To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:22:57 AM Subject: [tips] Stressed out Monkeys Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element of unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454&n=T&l=tips&o=22478 or send a blank email to leave-22478-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22479 or send a blank email to leave-22479-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
[tips] Stressed out Monkeys
Does anybody remember? What was that study in which monkeys were slightly shocked - one monkey knew when the shock was coming but the other one received the exact same number of shocks but didn't know when it was coming? The latter monkey showed more signs of stress, indicating that this element of unpredictability was really the important factor in stressful events? Anyone know the original study on this? appreciate it, Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=22478 or send a blank email to leave-22478-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
