RE: [tips] Polling...
Y'all So which is it? Interocular or intraocular. I find the infamous IOTT described all over the internet as both interocular AND intraocular. I've always understood intraocular based on, for example, intraocular surgery or intraocular injection- i.e., into the eye. Interocular as between or within the eye (medical definition)- For example, the interocular distance is the distance between the eyes. Or am I incorrect/misremembering? Since the Inter/intra Ocular Trauma Test is referring to an effect so obvious it hits you between the eyes . . . I'm confused. And I checked several statistical sites that, yep, say it both ways (not on the same site!). :) I'll be happy to be wrong (again!). I took three different science knowledge tests today and haven't missed one as yet so I'll still have had a good day if I missed just one! My students will be happy too as I share with them when I discover a mistake I've been making -(and my rule is corrected mistakes are to be celebrated so they get chocolate!). Tim ___ Timothy O. Shearon, PhD Professor, Department of Psychology The College of Idaho Caldwell, ID 83605 email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and systems You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. Dorothy Parker --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25203 or send a blank email to leave-25203-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
Wouldn't intraocular be WITHIN the eye, and interocular be BETWEEN the eyes? It should be the second, I think. Chris ... Christopher D Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M6C 1G4 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo On 2013-04-24, at 3:04 AM, Tim Shearon tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu wrote: Y'all So which is it? Interocular or intraocular. I find the infamous IOTT described all over the internet as both interocular AND intraocular. I've always understood intraocular based on, for example, intraocular surgery or intraocular injection- i.e., into the eye. Interocular as between or within the eye (medical definition)- For example, the interocular distance is the distance between the eyes. Or am I incorrect/misremembering? Since the Inter/intra Ocular Trauma Test is referring to an effect so obvious it hits you between the eyes . . . I'm confused. And I checked several statistical sites that, yep, say it both ways (not on the same site!). :) I'll be happy to be wrong (again!). I took three different science knowledge tests today and haven't missed one as yet so I'll still have had a good day if I missed just one! My students will be happy too as I share with them when I discover a mistake I've been making -(and my rule is corrected mistakes are to be celebrated so they get chocolate!). Tim ___ Timothy O. Shearon, PhD Professor, Department of Psychology The College of Idaho Caldwell, ID 83605 email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and systems You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. Dorothy Parker --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92n=Tl=tipso=25203 or send a blank email to leave-25203-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25206 or send a blank email to leave-25206-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
On the lighter side, one of my statistics professors liked to talk about the inter-ocular effect: An effect so big it hit you right between the eyes (and the statistical analysis was a matter of confirming the obvious). :-) Claudia _ Claudia J. Stanny, Ph.D. Director Center for University Teaching, Learning, and Assessment Associate Professor NSF UWF Faculty ADVANCE Scholar School of Psychological and Behavioral Sciences University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 – 5751 Phone: (850) 857-6355 (direct) or 473-7435 (CUTLA) csta...@uwf.edu CUTLA Web Site: http://uwf.edu/cutla/ Personal Web Pages: http://uwf.edu/cstanny/website/index.htm --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25180 or send a blank email to leave-25180-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Polling...
Dear Tipsters, Continuing on Claudia's lighter side, whenever we consider results in the research methods course (either from an article or one of our projects), I always ask the class to say what their eyeballs are telling them. Then we look at the stats to see if the eyeballs are correct or not. Ocularity is a great teaching technique! Sincerely, Stuart ___ Floreat Labore [cid:image001.jpg@01CE4010.C71BB7E0] Recti cultus pectora roborant Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D., Phone: 819 822 9600 x 2402 Department of Psychology, Fax: 819 822 9661 Bishop's University, 2600 rue College, Sherbrooke, Québec J1M 1Z7, Canada. E-mail: stuart.mckel...@ubishops.camailto:stuart.mckel...@ubishops.ca (or smcke...@ubishops.camailto:smcke...@ubishops.ca) Bishop's University Psychology Department Web Page: http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psyblocked::http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy Floreat Labore [cid:image002.jpg@01CE4010.C71BB7E0] [cid:image003.jpg@01CE4010.C71BB7E0] ___ --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25181 or send a blank email to leave-25181-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.eduinline: image001.jpginline: image002.jpginline: image003.jpg
Re: [tips] Polling...
I agree with the eyeball method and it fits a distinction I always make between the context of discovery and a context of justification. Most researchers (some tipster might want to say "some researchers") discover based on the eyeball, playing with data sans "rules" as well as prior data, insightful hunches etc etc .. it's probably a long list. Then we must justify to others and that's when we pull out all the statistical expertise, and thank goodness as so much is discovered through serendipity and chance and just plain curiosity. Though, nearly all of us have a big enough statistical super-ego to double and triple check assumptions, procedures etc while in the "justification" phase. And on a few occasions I was discouraged from a hypothesis I _knew_ was correct by those darned p values once properly figured, so they can be very useful helping us give up dead ends.Speaking of eyeballs, I love to plug the extensive and proper use of graphs (though in this article they are discussed as as part of the "justification" phase)Constructing knowledge: The role of graphs and tables in hard and soft psychology.Smith, L. D., and othersAmerican Psychologist, Vol 57(10), Oct, 2002. pp. 749-761.==John W. Kulig, Ph.D.Professor of PsychologyCoordinator, University HonorsPlymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 ==From: "Stuart McKelvie" smcke...@ubishops.caTo: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" tips@fsulist.frostburg.eduSent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:53:24 AMSubject: RE: [tips] Polling... Dear Tipsters, Continuing on Claudia’s lighter side, whenever we consider results in the research methods course (either from an article or one of our projects), I always ask the class to say what their eyeballs are telling them. Then we look at the stats to see if the eyeballs are correct or not. Ocularity is a great teaching technique! Sincerely, Stuart ___ "Floreat Labore" "Recti cultus pectora roborant" Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D., Phone: 819 822 9600 x 2402 Department of Psychology, Fax: 819 822 9661 Bishop's University, 2600 rue College, Sherbrooke, Québec J1M 1Z7, Canada. E-mail: stuart.mckel...@ubishops.ca (or smcke...@ubishops.ca) Bishop's University Psychology Department Web Page: http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy Floreat Labore" ___ --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: ku...@mail.plymouth.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66454n=Tl=tipso=25181 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25181-13338.f659d005276678c0696b7f6beda66...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5=T=tips=25183 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25183-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Polling...
I refer to the Iball statistic. Cheers, [Karl L. Wuensch]http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/klw.htm From: Claudia Stanny [mailto:csta...@uwf.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:46 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Polling... On the lighter side, one of my statistics professors liked to talk about the inter-ocular effect: An effect so big it hit you right between the eyes (and the statistical analysis was a matter of confirming the obvious). :-) Claudia _ Claudia J. Stanny, Ph.D. Director Center for University Teaching, Learning, and Assessment Associate Professor NSF UWF Faculty ADVANCE Scholar School of Psychological and Behavioral Sciences University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 - 5751 Phone: (850) 857-6355 (direct) or 473-7435 (CUTLA) csta...@uwf.edumailto:csta...@uwf.edu CUTLA Web Site: http://uwf.edu/cutla/ Personal Web Pages: http://uwf.edu/cstanny/website/index.htm --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: wuens...@ecu.edumailto:wuens...@ecu.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13060.c78b93d4d09ef6235e9d494b3534420en=Tl=tipso=25180 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25180-13060.c78b93d4d09ef6235e9d494b35344...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25180-13060.c78b93d4d09ef6235e9d494b35344...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25184 or send a blank email to leave-25184-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.eduinline: image001.jpg
RE: [tips] Polling...
One of my stat professors in grad school referred to it as the inter-ocular trauma test. (If someone else said that already, never mind). :) Tim From: Claudia Stanny [mailto:csta...@uwf.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 8:46 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Polling... On the lighter side, one of my statistics professors liked to talk about the inter-ocular effect: An effect so big it hit you right between the eyes (and the statistical analysis was a matter of confirming the obvious). :-) Claudia _ Claudia J. Stanny, Ph.D. Director Center for University Teaching, Learning, and Assessment Associate Professor NSF UWF Faculty ADVANCE Scholar School of Psychological and Behavioral Sciences University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 - 5751 Phone: (850) 857-6355 (direct) or 473-7435 (CUTLA) csta...@uwf.edumailto:csta...@uwf.edu CUTLA Web Site: http://uwf.edu/cutla/ Personal Web Pages: http://uwf.edu/cstanny/website/index.htm --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edumailto:tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13545.bae00fb8b4115786ba5dbbb67b9b177an=Tl=tipso=25180 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25180-13545.bae00fb8b4115786ba5dbbb67b9b1...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25180-13545.bae00fb8b4115786ba5dbbb67b9b1...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25192 or send a blank email to leave-25192-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE:[tips] Polling...
I was told the same thing in my stats classes, although one of our resident statisticians here has no problem with it. To be it's a dichotomous decision, but I was also taught not to say things like a result approached significance. Is this a somewhat arbitrary guideline? Maybe. But it's the one we adopt in such testing, no? Just my two cents as someone who's always told to chill out. David W. -Original Message- From: Marc Carter [mailto:marc.car...@bakeru.edu] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 2:03 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: [tips] Polling... Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: dwasi...@valdosta.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13191.978362ce7b096266e2cefb878aa3250bn=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-13191.978362ce7b096266e2cefb878aa32...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25138 or send a blank email to leave-25138-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
I get a similar reaction when I read that expression. The question for me is this: Has there ever been a consensus as to what obtained p level merits that designation? Miguel - Original Message - From: Marc Carter marc.car...@bakeru.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 2:03:04 PM Subject: [tips] Polling... Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: miguelr...@comcast.net. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=466839.0421d1005414eed82340aa280e7ce629n=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-466839.0421d1005414eed82340aa280e7ce...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25139 or send a blank email to leave-25139-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Polling...
That's a good question. I'm prepping for a discussion tomorrow of Bandura, Ross Ross (1961), and they use highly significant to describe a result where the _p_ is .02 – which to me doesn't really merit highly anything. m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- From: MiguelRoig [mailto:miguelr...@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 1:10 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Polling... I get a similar reaction when I read that expression. The question for me is this: Has there ever been a consensus as to what obtained p level merits that designation? Miguel From: Marc Carter marc.car...@bakeru.edumailto:marc.car...@bakeru.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 2:03:04 PM Subject: [tips] Polling... Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: miguelr...@comcast.netmailto:miguelr...@comcast.net. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=466839.0421d1005414eed82340aa280e7ce629n=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-466839.0421d1005414eed82340aa280e7ce...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25137-466839.0421d1005414eed82340aa280e7ce...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: marc.car...@bakeru.edumailto:marc.car...@bakeru.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72a2d17c90e1n=Tl=tipso=25139 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25139-13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72a2d17c9...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25139-13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72a2d17c9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25140 or send a blank email to leave-25140-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
Highly significant conflates statistical rarity with impact (importance of the effect, the size of the effect). On the other hand, I think approaching significance can be useful and I will defend that practice (although I wouldn't push its use in a publication). Many statisticians note the arbitrariness of the decision criterion (the magical .05) and argue that a result that would occur randomly with a probability of .051 or .052 or .06 (I could go on . . . it is a slippery slope) deserves closer examination than just deciding that the result is does not meet the criterion to be declared statistically reliable. This rigidness in the decision process seems to reinforce the too-common treatment of statistical analysis as a ritual of taking out data (our sacrificial goat, as it were) to the oracle for a decision. We can be more thoughtful than this. (Abelson's excellent book, *Statistics as Principled Argument*, has some discussion of the thoughtful use of inferential statistics.) Failure to reach the criterion can occur for reasons other than absence of an effect. The near misses are worth examining. Similarly, the just-made-it successes deserve replication and questions about Type I Errors. Claudia _ Claudia J. Stanny, Ph.D. Director Center for University Teaching, Learning, and Assessment Associate Professor NSF UWF Faculty ADVANCE Scholar School of Psychological and Behavioral Sciences University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 – 5751 Phone: (850) 857-6355 (direct) or 473-7435 (CUTLA) csta...@uwf.edu CUTLA Web Site: http://uwf.edu/cutla/ Personal Web Pages: http://uwf.edu/cstanny/website/index.htm --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25141 or send a blank email to leave-25141-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
I still emphasize this in my classes. I do not like significance used without statistical before, as I find this soon leads to such statements, and other, unwarranted inferences. However, other colleagues and editors apparently feel that the context of such use (results sections, etc.) is sufficient justification. We recently had our annual departmental poster session where students presented their research and almost all posters did not make any such qualifications in their use of significant findings. Of course, a highly significant observation eh? - Original Message - From: Marc Carter marc.car...@bakeru.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 2:03:04 PM Subject: [tips] Polling... Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: peter...@svsu.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13445.e3edca0f6e68bfb76eaf26a8eb6dd94bn=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-13445.e3edca0f6e68bfb76eaf26a8eb6dd...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25142 or send a blank email to leave-25142-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Polling...
Claudia You make reasonable arguments. It's debatable, ultimately, as the decision criteria can be thought of flexibly (as in, this is early so I used a softer criterion of .07, or similar arguments) OR as a disciplinary cut-off (as in, we use .05 in the social sciences based on reasoned consequences of Type I and Type II errors). To be honest, I find people often teach the later and do the former depending on a variety of factors. At any rate, I'm siding with the fingernail on a chalkboard metaphor, or, NO, you are not being too picky, when it comes to the term that started this discussion. I distinctly remember an episode of MASH (episode 14 of season 1?) where Radar is attempting to impress a rather intelligent nurse and Hawkeye teaches him to say, That's highly significant! when he doesn't understand a point she's made. At least now it makes me laugh instead of cringing when someone says that. :) Best, Tim Shearon ___ Timothy O. Shearon, PhD Professor, Department of Psychology The College of Idaho Caldwell, ID 83605 email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and systems You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. Dorothy Parker From: Claudia Stanny [mailto:csta...@uwf.edu] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:27 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Polling... Highly significant conflates statistical rarity with impact (importance of the effect, the size of the effect). On the other hand, I think approaching significance can be useful and I will defend that practice (although I wouldn't push its use in a publication). Many statisticians note the arbitrariness of the decision criterion (the magical .05) and argue that a result that would occur randomly with a probability of .051 or .052 or .06 (I could go on . . . it is a slippery slope) deserves closer examination than just deciding that the result is does not meet the criterion to be declared statistically reliable. This rigidness in the decision process seems to reinforce the too-common treatment of statistical analysis as a ritual of taking out data (our sacrificial goat, as it were) to the oracle for a decision. We can be more thoughtful than this. (Abelson's excellent book, Statistics as Principled Argument, has some discussion of the thoughtful use of inferential statistics.) Failure to reach the criterion can occur for reasons other than absence of an effect. The near misses are worth examining. Similarly, the just-made-it successes deserve replication and questions about Type I Errors. Claudia --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25144 or send a blank email to leave-25144-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
The use is a highly irritating conflation of a dichotomous decision and an indication of effect size. Ken Kenneth M. Steele, Ph. D.steel...@appstate.edu Professor and Assistant Chairperson Department of Psychology http://www.psych.appstate.edu Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 USA On 4/22/2013 2:03 PM, Marc Carter wrote: Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25145 or send a blank email to leave-25145-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Polling...
Ahh Bach! (nodding with a smile). Doug Peterson, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology The University of South Dakota Vermillion SD 57069 605.677.5295 From: Tim Shearon [tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 1:59 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: RE: [tips] Polling... Claudia You make reasonable arguments. It’s debatable, ultimately, as the decision criteria can be thought of flexibly (as in, this is early so I used a softer criterion of .07, or similar arguments) OR as a disciplinary cut-off (as in, we use .05 in the social sciences based on reasoned consequences of Type I and Type II errors). To be honest, I find people often teach the later and do the former depending on a variety of factors. At any rate, I’m siding with the fingernail on a chalkboard metaphor, or, “NO, you are not being too picky”, when it comes to the term that started this discussion. I distinctly remember an episode of MASH (episode 14 of season 1?) where Radar is attempting to impress a rather intelligent nurse and Hawkeye teaches him to say, “That’s highly significant!” when he doesn’t understand a point she’s made. At least now it makes me laugh instead of cringing when someone says that. ☺ Best, Tim Shearon ___ Timothy O. Shearon, PhD Professor, Department of Psychology The College of Idaho Caldwell, ID 83605 email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and systems You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. Dorothy Parker From: Claudia Stanny [mailto:csta...@uwf.edu] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:27 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Polling... Highly significant conflates statistical rarity with impact (importance of the effect, the size of the effect). On the other hand, I think approaching significance can be useful and I will defend that practice (although I wouldn't push its use in a publication). Many statisticians note the arbitrariness of the decision criterion (the magical .05) and argue that a result that would occur randomly with a probability of .051 or .052 or .06 (I could go on . . . it is a slippery slope) deserves closer examination than just deciding that the result is does not meet the criterion to be declared statistically reliable. This rigidness in the decision process seems to reinforce the too-common treatment of statistical analysis as a ritual of taking out data (our sacrificial goat, as it were) to the oracle for a decision. We can be more thoughtful than this. (Abelson's excellent book, Statistics as Principled Argument, has some discussion of the thoughtful use of inferential statistics.) Failure to reach the criterion can occur for reasons other than absence of an effect. The near misses are worth examining. Similarly, the just-made-it successes deserve replication and questions about Type I Errors. Claudia --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: doug.peter...@usd.edumailto:doug.peter...@usd.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=12991.6a54289b29ceb58cb7609cc50e0dc1c8n=Tl=tipso=25144 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25144-12991.6a54289b29ceb58cb7609cc50e0dc...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25144-12991.6a54289b29ceb58cb7609cc50e0dc...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25146 or send a blank email to leave-25146-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
No, you are not being too picky and this is why I think so: Suppose instead of a simple t-test for independent means you had several conditions and for some reason did a collection of t-tests among the means. You knew to take a Bonferoni correction for alpha so that it was necessarily reduced, maybe to .001. Then you had several of your t-tests come through significant at alpha at .001 with p = .0008 for each. The temptation for a single t-test with p = .0008 would be to declare it 'highly significant' but when you had to whittle alpha down to such a low value before doing the tests it is clear that phrase no longer applies because you are just barely crossing the barrier for a null rejection decision. If a student wants to characterize the result is 'important' or 'big' or'notable' etc. they should do so based on effect size, and/or practical criteria. Paul On Apr 22, 2013, at 2:03 PM, Marc Carter wrote: Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: pcbernha...@frostburg.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13441.4e79e96ebb5671bdb50111f18f263003n=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-13441.4e79e96ebb5671bdb50111f18f263...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25147 or send a blank email to leave-25147-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Polling...
To me, the phrase approaching significance implies that all we need to do is run a few more subjects until we see significance, a practice known to bolster your chances for a type I error. Bill Scott Claudia Stanny 04/22/13 1:28 PM Highly significant conflates statistical rarity with impact (importance of the effect, the size of the effect). On the other hand, I think approaching significance can be useful and I will defend that practice (although I wouldn't push its use in a publication). Many statisticians note the arbitrariness of the decision criterion (the magical .05) and argue that a result that would occur randomly with a probability of .051 or .052 or .06 (I could go on . . . it is a slippery slope) deserves closer examination than just deciding that the result is does not meet the criterion to be declared statistically reliable. This rigidness in the decision process seems to reinforce the too-common treatment of statistical analysis as a ritual of taking out data (our sacrificial goat, as it were) to the oracle for a decision. We can be more thoughtful than this. (Abelson's excellent book, Statistics as Principled Argument, has some discussion of the thoughtful use of inferential statistics.) Failure to reach the criterion can occur for reasons other than absence of an effect. The near misses are worth examining. Similarly, the just-made-it successes deserve replication and questions about Type I Errors. Claudia _ Claudia J. Stanny, Ph.D. Director Center for University Teaching, Learning, and Assessment Associate Professor NSF UWF Faculty ADVANCE Scholar School of Psychological and Behavioral Sciences University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 * 5751 Phone: (850) 857-6355 (direct) or 473-7435 (CUTLA) csta...@uwf.edu CUTLA Web Site: http://uwf.edu/cutla/ Personal Web Pages: http://uwf.edu/cstanny/website/index.htm --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: wsc...@wooster.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb25165cn=Tl=tipso=25141 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25141-13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb251...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25149 or send a blank email to leave-25149-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Polling...
Dear Tipsters, Cowles and Davis (1982) wrote an excellent paper on the origins of the .05 convention. It is interesting to see the position that some of the great statisticians took on where the issue of where to set a guideline for siginificant. For example, referring to chi square, Pearson wrote that the fit is remarkably good if p = .56, and not very improbable if p .1. American Psychologist, 37, 553-558. Sincerely, Stuart ___ Floreat Labore [cid:image007.jpg@01CE3F73.D292AD60] Recti cultus pectora roborant Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D., Phone: 819 822 9600 x 2402 Department of Psychology, Fax: 819 822 9661 Bishop's University, 2600 rue College, Sherbrooke, Québec J1M 1Z7, Canada. E-mail: stuart.mckel...@ubishops.camailto:stuart.mckel...@ubishops.ca (or smcke...@ubishops.camailto:smcke...@ubishops.ca) Bishop's University Psychology Department Web Page: http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psyblocked::http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy Floreat Labore [cid:image008.jpg@01CE3F73.D292AD60] [cid:image009.jpg@01CE3F73.D292AD60] ___ From: William Scott [mailto:wsc...@wooster.edu] Sent: April 22, 2013 4:01 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Polling... To me, the phrase approaching significance implies that all we need to do is run a few more subjects until we see significance, a practice known to bolster your chances for a type I error. Bill Scott Claudia Stanny 04/22/13 1:28 PM Highly significant conflates statistical rarity with impact (importance of the effect, the size of the effect). On the other hand, I think approaching significance can be useful and I will defend that practice (although I wouldn't push its use in a publication). Many statisticians note the arbitrariness of the decision criterion (the magical .05) and argue that a result that would occur randomly with a probability of .051 or .052 or .06 (I could go on . . . it is a slippery slope) deserves closer examination than just deciding that the result is does not meet the criterion to be declared statistically reliable. This rigidness in the decision process seems to reinforce the too-common treatment of statistical analysis as a ritual of taking out data (our sacrificial goat, as it were) to the oracle for a decision. We can be more thoughtful than this. (Abelson's excellent book, Statistics as Principled Argument, has some discussion of the thoughtful use of inferential statistics.) Failure to reach the criterion can occur for reasons other than absence of an effect. The near misses are worth examining. Similarly, the just-made-it successes deserve replication and questions about Type I Errors. Claudia _ Claudia J. Stanny, Ph.D. Director Center for University Teaching, Learning, and Assessment Associate Professor NSF UWF Faculty ADVANCE Scholar School of Psychological and Behavioral Sciences University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 - 5751 Phone: (850) 857-6355 (direct) or 473-7435 (CUTLA) csta...@uwf.edumailto:csta...@uwf.edu CUTLA Web Site: http://uwf.edu/cutla/ Personal Web Pages: http://uwf.edu/cstanny/website/index.htm --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: wsc...@wooster.edumailto:wsc...@wooster.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb25165cn=Tl=tipso=25141 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25141-13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb251...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25141-13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb251...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: smcke...@ubishops.camailto:smcke...@ubishops.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13510.2cc18398df2e6692fffc29a610cb72e3n=Tl=tipso=25149 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-25149-13510.2cc18398df2e6692fffc29a610cb7...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-25149-13510.2cc18398df2e6692fffc29a610cb7...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25150 or send a blank email to leave-25150-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.eduinline: image007.jpginline: image008.jpginline: image009.jpg
Re: [tips] Polling...
Hi I do think there are places where qualifiers to significant (or statistically significant) are appropriate. An effect that has p = .002 is quite different in my mind than p = .048, and highly significant vs significant would appear to capture that. Indeed isn't that the logic behind APA's recommendation to report specific p values? And to say that an effect is marginally significant or approached significance for p = .055 strikes me as appropriate especially when you know the test has weak power (e.g., tests of interactions that do not conform to X pattern) and you plan follow-up analyses (e.g., planned contrasts for main effects, simple effects or partitioning interaction). I'm not sure that we give a very realistic impression about the nature of statistics striving to adhere strictly to the mathematical preciseness of the tests under ideal conditions. Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor Chair of Psychology j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca Room 4L41A 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax Dept of Psychology, U of Winnipeg 515 Portage Ave, Winnipeg, MB R3B 0R4 CANADA Marc Carter marc.car...@bakeru.edu 22-Apr-13 1:03 PM Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9n=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25151 or send a blank email to leave-25151-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.eduattachment: Jim_Clark.vcf
Re: [tips] Polling...
Hi Marc- Not only do I abhor the term highly significant I also dislike the term significant. I always taught my students to use the term statistically reliable instead. significant implies that the results are important. That is a value judgement which should be made after careful consideration of a whole host of non-statistical factors. There was also a paper published a number of years ago (sorry, no reference and no access to the library right now) which showed that people ascribed more value to results which were labeled significant than those which were described as non-chance findings. -Don. - Original Message - From: Marc Carter marc.car...@bakeru.edu To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 11:03:04 AM Subject: [tips] Polling... Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? m -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Behavioral and Health Sciences College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: dap...@shaw.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13157.966b795bc7f3ccb35e3da08aebe98f18n=Tl=tipso=25137 or send a blank email to leave-25137-13157.966b795bc7f3ccb35e3da08aebe98...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25155 or send a blank email to leave-25155-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
re: [tips] Polling...
On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:03:12 -0700, Marc Carter wrote: Hi, All -- A poll: Am I being too picky about the use of the phrase, highly significant (or something similar) when it's used to describe a very low-probability result? It sort of drives me crazy; all I can hear is my graduate math stats teacher threatening to kill us if we ever said something like that. I still read it in papers and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. But perhaps I should just chill out? What do you think? I tend to agree with you but I'd like to make the following points: (1) Some software packages, such as SPSS, truncate the p-value or significance at three decimal values, so, it would be a mistake to say that any result with p= .001 or p .001 is highly significant because it is likely that there are some results that have an even smaller probability of occurring under a true null hypothesis. (2) To reinforce point (1) above, a couple of decades ago I conducted a levels of processing memory experiment in a statistics class in order to provide the students with some real data to work with. In this experiment, students were presented 32 words via a slide projector and half of the students received instructions to determine if the word contained the letter e or not (they wrote down yes or no to each word on a response sheet) while the other half received instructions to determine whether the word referred to a man-made/manufactured object (again, they wrote yes or no; stimulus conditions were balanced to make yes/no response rates equal for both groups). After a few minutes of distraction, students were told to recall as many words as they could. As a one-way two-level between-subjects design was used, an independent groups t-test was conducted (with equal variances) and a one-way ANOVA was conducted and provided the following results from SPSS: (a) t-test: t(29)= -5.97, p .001, r^2= .55 (b) One-way ANOVA: F(1.29)= 35.59, p .001, partial eta^2=.55 Note that the above follows APA style recommendations for reporting statistical results which raises the question of why one would focus on the p-value instead of the effect size measure, that is, the point-biserial squared or eta-squared. Over half of the variance in the dependent variable (i.e., number of words recalled) is accounted for by the instruction manipulation. The key idea is to make sure that an effect size measure is presented and correctly interpreted. (3) Excel, for all its short-comings, attempts to provide p-values for the obtained values of test statistics. Though Excel blew up in providing the two-tailed p-value for the data used above, it did provide the p-value in the regression analysis where the p-value for the coefficient for LoP group membership was p= 1.74819473651439E-06, that is, in scientific notation, or p= .00174819473651439, if I remember how to convert scientific notation back to ordinary numbers. So, do this result qualify as super-duper higher statistically significant? (4) I agree with Karl W. that calling a test result reliable on the basis of a p-value is very strange and I had not been taught that usage. However, I did come across its use among some mathematical psychologists which made me wonder (a) why would they say such a thing, and (b) what was I missing? -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=25160 or send a blank email to leave-25160-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
