Re:[tips] Freud and intellectuals
Chris Green wrote: I'm sure Koehler (trained as a physicist under Max Planck) [Thanks for that nugget, Chris!] had his legitimate doubts about psychoanalysis. One should keep in mind, also, the ongoing intellectual rivalry between Berlin and Vienna at work here. As I'm sure Chris will agree, though such rivalries sometimes play a role in the positions taken by the respective proponents, what matters in the end is the calibre of the work and the arguments. Whatever the rivalry between the Viennese and Paris schools of psychology/psychotherapy at the turn of the twentieth century, Janet's critiques of psychoanalysis were insightful (The Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1914-1915, pp. 1-35; 153-183), as was his later observation: The psychoanalysts invariably set to work in order to discover a traumatic memory, with an a priori conviction that it is there to be discovered… Owing to the nature of their methods, they can invariably find what they seek. Interestingly, the one obvious conflict that was probably NOT at work in Koehler's remark was anti-semitism. The other major Gestalt theorists (Wertheimer, Koffka) were, of course. Jewish (though Koehler was not). In Freud's case, claims of opposition motivated by anti-Semitism have tended to be over-stated (the Nazi period excluded, of course). In his monumental volume *The Discovery of the Unconscious* Henri Ellenberger noted: The [Freud] legend considerably exaggerates the extent and role of anti-Semitism, of the hostility of the academic world, and of alleged Victorian prejudices (1970, p. 547). On misconceptions about alleged anti-Semitism in regard to the Minister of Education's failing to ratify Freud's nomination in 1897 for promotion from Assistant Professor to Associate Professor at the University of Vienna, see Frank Sulloway's *Freud: Biologist of the Mind* (1979, p. 463). (He was eventually promoted in 1902.) Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org - From: Christopher D. Green chri...@yorku.ca Subject:Re: Freud and intellectuals Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:03:07 -0400 Allen Esterson wrote: An addition to Stephen's list of quotes: Wolfgang Köhler, gestalt psychologist and ethologist: I now turn to psychoanalysis, the source of more, and of darker, smog than any other doctrine has produced. (Quoted in Percival Bailey, *Sigmund the Unserene: A Tragedy in Three Acts*, 1965) I'm sure Koehler (trained as a physicist under Max Planck) had his legitimate doubts about psychoanalysis. One should keep in mind, also, the ongoing intellectual rivalry between Berlin and Vienna at work here. My wife once suggested to a friend of hers from Berlin, who was experiencing some personal difficulties, that she might seek out a therapist of counselor. The instant and definitive reply was We are Prussian, not Austrian! There is a religious aspect to the this rivalry as well (Prussian is Protestant, Austria Catholic). Interestingly, the one obvious conflict that was probably NOT at work in Koehler's remark was anti-semitism. The other major Gestalt theorists (Wertheimer, Koffka) were, of course. Jewish (though Koehler was not). Chris --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5673 or send a blank email to leave-5673-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re:[tips] Freud and intellectuals
Joan Warmbold wrote: … And you did have a book in your hands as I noted on amazon a published critique of Freud--_Seduction Mirage: A Exploration of the Work of Sigmund Freud_, a book I certainly plan on purchasing. I should forewarn you of a blunder I made in regard to one of Freud's lesser known case histories. See: http://www.esterson.org/Mirage_acknowledgement_of_error.htm Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org - From: Joan Warmbold jwarm...@oakton.edu Subject:Re: Freud and intellectuals Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:58:17 -0500 Sorry Allen as I had made the incorrect assumption that you are a psychologist. How lucky are we that you participate on TIPS. And you did have a book in your hands as I noted on amazon a published critique of Freud--_Seduction Mirage: A Exploration of the Work of Sigmund Freud_, a book I certainly plan on purchasing. But your post, in and of itself, was very compelling as well as humorous. As you so aptly say at the end of one of Freud's convoluted explanations, who could make this up.?! Joan Joan Warmbold Boggs jwarm...@oakton.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5674 or send a blank email to leave-5674-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
Joan Warmbold asks: Has there ever been a non-psychologist scholar who has challenged Freud's theories? Allen E. replied: As is implied in Joan's question, there have been many eminent psychologists who have challenged psychoanalysis from its inception As for non-psychologists, let's not forget the tenacious Frederick Crews, professor of English at the University of California (just cited by Allen in his previous post), for his devastating critiques of psychoanalytic nonsense (including, for starters, the inspired mockery in The Pooh Perplex). Or the Nobel-prize winning zoologist and immunologist Peter Medawar, who said (in Pluto's Republic, 1982): There is some truth in psychoanalysis, as there is in mesmerism and phrenology, but considered in its entirety, psychoanalysis won't do. It is an end-product, like a dinosaur or a Zeppelin; no better theory can ever be constructed on its ruins, which will remain as one of the saddest and strangest of all landmarks in the history of 20th century thought. (Amen, I say). Or the great philosopher of science Karl Popper, whose assessment was: [Freud's theory] although posing as science, had in fact more in common with primitive myth than with science... it resembled astrology rather than astronomy; (Popper (1965). Conjectures and Refutations (2nd ed.)). Or the neurologist Percival Bailey, who observed in an essay titled Sigmund Freud: Scientific Period (an oxymoron, perhaps): If you will accept the term science in the sense of Naturwissenschaft, or _natural_ science, Freud didn't do any more natural scientific research after 1897 [before The Interpretation of Dreams]. He ended there. After that what he did was speculate. He never tried to subject any of his ideas to experimental tests, and furthermore, he was quite hostile to the suggestion...So I stopped at 1897 because that was the last time that he wrote a scientific paper in the sense of Naturwissenschaft. (Bailey, 1964). (quotes all recycled from long-forgotten posts of mine to TIPS). Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca --- --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5656 or send a blank email to leave-5656-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
An addition to Stephen's list of quotes: Wolfgang Köhler, gestalt psychologist and ethologist: I now turn to psychoanalysis, the source of more, and of darker, smog than any other doctrine has produced. (Quoted in Percival Bailey, *Sigmund the Unserene: A Tragedy in Three Acts*, 1965) And for Frederick Crews taking on all comers on psychoanalysis in a remarkable tour de force: F. Crews (ed), *The Memory Wars: Freud's Legacy in Dispute*, A New York Review book, 1995. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals sblack Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:20:05 -0700 Joan Warmbold asks: Has there ever been a non-psychologist scholar who has challenged Freud's theories? Allen E. replied: As is implied in Joan's question, there have been many eminent psychologists who have challenged psychoanalysis from its inception As for non-psychologists, let's not forget the tenacious Frederick Crews, professor of English at the University of California (just cited by Allen in his previous post), for his devastating critiques of psychoanalytic nonsense (including, for starters, the inspired mockery in The Pooh Perplex). Or the Nobel-prize winning zoologist and immunologist Peter Medawar, who said (in Pluto's Republic, 1982): There is some truth in psychoanalysis, as there is in mesmerism and phrenology, but considered in its entirety, psychoanalysis won't do. It is an end-product, like a dinosaur or a Zeppelin; no better theory can ever be constructed on its ruins, which will remain as one of the saddest and strangest of all landmarks in the history of 20th century thought. (Amen, I say). Or the great philosopher of science Karl Popper, whose assessment was: [Freud's theory] although posing as science, had in fact more in common with primitive myth than with science... it resembled astrology rather than astronomy; (Popper (1965). Conjectures and Refutations (2nd ed.)). Or the neurologist Percival Bailey, who observed in an essay titled Sigmund Freud: Scientific Period (an oxymoron, perhaps): If you will accept the term science in the sense of Naturwissenschaft, or _natural_ science, Freud didn't do any more natural scientific research after 1897 [before The Interpretation of Dreams]. He ended there. After that what he did was speculate. He never tried to subject any of his ideas to experimental tests, and furthermore, he was quite hostile to the suggestion...So I stopped at 1897 because that was the last time that he wrote a scientific paper in the sense of Naturwissenschaft. (Bailey, 1964). (quotes all recycled from long-forgotten posts of mine to TIPS). Stephen --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5658 or send a blank email to leave-5658-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
Sorry Allen as I had made the incorrect assumption that you are a psychologist. How lucky are we that you participate on TIPS. And you did have a book in your hands as I noted on amazon a published critique of Freud--_Seduction Mirage: A Exploration of the Work of Sigmund Freud_, a book I certainly plan on purchasing. But your post, in and of itself, was very compelling as well as humorous. As you so aptly say at the end of one of Freud's convoluted explanations, who could make this up.?! Joan Joan Warmbold Boggs jwarm...@oakton.edu Allen Esterson wrote: Correction! I have a degree in physics from University College London, 1958 vintage. I have to acknowledge that I only obtained a Second Class Honours Degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_undergraduate_degree_classification . So how (as I'm sure some TIPSters are dying to know :-) -- others may switch off here!) did I end up doing research on Freud? Sometime in the early 1980s a cousin (Jungian by inclination) made laudatory comments about Freud and suggested I should read his work. By good fortune, the only relevant book on the shelves of my local library contained the Wolf Man case history. I have to say that as I read Freud's analytic explanations the thought that went repeatedly through my mind was How can anyone take this stuff seriously? (See below for a glorious sample.) I also came to the conclusion that a key individual (a servant girl Grusha) from the patient's infancy who hazily emerged in a supposed recovered memory after more than four years of analysis, conveniently supplying what Freud called the solution, was an invention. (As I was to discover, the Wolf Man told an interviewer many years later: I cannot even remember this Grusha.) This led to further reading of works by, and about, Freud (Ellenberger, Sulloway). Following up Elizabeth Thornton's sceptical account of the seduction theory episode in *Freud and Cocaine* (1983), I checked out the original papers, and all Freud's later accounts of the episode. This led me to the conclusion that the whole thing (from the original papers to the final traditional story) was phoney. (Unbeknown to me, Frank Cioffi had already arrived at the same conclusion – see Was Freud a Liar? (1974) in *Freud and the Question of Pseudoscience*.) By that stage I thought I've got a book on my hands, and set about a close reading of other case histories and of more of Freud's writings, especially his general accounts of psychoanalysis. Getting published is another story… --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5662 or send a blank email to leave-5662-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
Allen Esterson wrote: An addition to Stephen's list of quotes: Wolfgang Köhler, gestalt psychologist and ethologist: I now turn to psychoanalysis, the source of more, and of darker, smog than any other doctrine has produced. (Quoted in Percival Bailey, *Sigmund the Unserene: A Tragedy in Three Acts*, 1965) I'm sure Koehler (trained as a physicist under Max Planck) had his legitimate doubts about psychoanalysis. One should keep in mind, also, the ongoing intellectual rivalry between Berlin and Vienna at work here. My wife once suggested to a friend of hers from Berlin, who was experiencing some personal difficulties, that she might seek out a therapist of counselor. The instant and definitive reply was We are Prussian, not Austrian! There is a religious aspect to the this rivalry as well (Prussian is Protestant, Austria Catholic). Interestingly, the one obvious conflict that was probably NOT at work in Koehler's remark was anti-semitism. The other major Gestalt theorists (Wertheimer, Koffka) were, of course. Jewish (though Koehler was not). Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ == --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5663 or send a blank email to leave-5663-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
I suppose it could be put down to belief perseverance and confirmation bias. Just as UFO enthusiasts interpret contrary evidence to fit their preconceptions, I imagine Freud believers do the same. Personal intelligence and critical thinking are often of little help when it comes to assessment (or reassessment) of firmly held convictions. --Mike --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5601 or send a blank email to leave-5601-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
I've noted this phenomena also Allen and my hypothesis has been that it was the esoteric, complex and inaccessible nature of Freud's theories that appealed to intellectuals. Ironically, I suspect that intellectuals are more easily seduced by the style of his presentation--i.e., degree of eloquence and complexity that prevented them from perceiving the underlying use of rhetorical strategies. I've also noted that, in general, east coast intellectual publications, as per the New Yorker, still appear to be enthralled with Freud's. Has there ever been a non-psychologist scholar who has challenged Freud's theories? Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu Allen Esterson wrote: An interesting (and potentially psychologically informative) question in relation to Freud: How is it that so many eminent intellectuals and scholars failed to recognize the dubious aspects of Freud's writings throughout much of the twentieth century? Walter Kaufmann http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kaufmann_(philosopher) wrote in *Freud Versus Adler and Jung*, volume 3 of his trilogy *Discovering the Mind*: Freud had extraordinarily high standards of honesty and I know of no man or woman more honest than Freud. In his celebrated *Four Essays on Liberty* the philosopher Isaiah Berlin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Berlin referred to Freud's work of genius as the greatest healer and psychological theorist of our time. And more recently, philosopher John Wisdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wisdom wrote in *Freud, Women and Society*: Masson made the incredible accusation that Freud was a liar. A more honest man than Freud scarcely walked the earth… Equivalent assessments of Freud by eminent intellectuals and scholars during the first three-quarters of the twentieth century could be replicated many times. That such assessments were profoundly in error is now a commonplace of modern Freud scholarship and raises the question of how highly intelligent intellectuals could be so mistaken in their reading of Freud. I have attempted a tentative (and grossly inadequate :-) )examination of Freud's Techniques of Persuasion in Chapter 12 of *Seductive Mirage*, but eminent intellectuals/philosophers should surely be able to see through rhetorical strategies of the kind he frequently employed. So what was going on? I'm genuinely puzzled by this phenomenon (also in relation to other instances that I'm sure some TIPSters could suggest). Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: jwarm...@oakton.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752d0dn=Tl=tipso=5597 or send a blank email to leave-5597-49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5632 or send a blank email to leave-5632-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
Joan Warmbold wrote: Has there ever been a non-psychologist scholar who has challenged Freud's theories? Well, there's Allen. :-) Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ == --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5634 or send a blank email to leave-5634-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals
Ah! Our good friend Allen is indeed a non-psychologist scholar! Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Allen is a mathematician by training and trade. How little we know about each other. I'm trying to meet tipsters when I travel and had coffee with Allen in London a few summers ago. BTW I may be teaching at Oxford for a term in spring 2012. I'm also hoping to get to New York and meet some tips friends in New york next summer. And although Michael may not remember, I was among the AP readers who watched his DJ gig in Daytona. Annette Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Joan Warmbold wrote: I've noted this phenomena also Allen and my hypothesis has been that it was the esoteric, complex and inaccessible nature of Freud's theories that appealed to intellectuals. Ironically, I suspect that intellectuals are more easily seduced by the style of his presentation--i.e., degree of eloquence and complexity that prevented them from perceiving the underlying use of rhetorical strategies. I've also noted that, in general, east coast intellectual publications, as per the New Yorker, still appear to be enthralled with Freud's. Has there ever been a non-psychologist scholar who has challenged Freud's theories? Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu Allen Esterson wrote: An interesting (and potentially psychologically informative) question in relation to Freud: How is it that so many eminent intellectuals and scholars failed to recognize the dubious aspects of Freud's writings throughout much of the twentieth century? Walter Kaufmann http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kaufmann_(philosopher) wrote in *Freud Versus Adler and Jung*, volume 3 of his trilogy *Discovering the Mind*: Freud had extraordinarily high standards of honesty and I know of no man or woman more honest than Freud. In his celebrated *Four Essays on Liberty* the philosopher Isaiah Berlin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Berlin referred to Freud's work of genius as the greatest healer and psychological theorist of our time. And more recently, philosopher John Wisdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wisdom wrote in *Freud, Women and Society*: Masson made the incredible accusation that Freud was a liar. A more honest man than Freud scarcely walked the earth… Equivalent assessments of Freud by eminent intellectuals and scholars during the first three-quarters of the twentieth century could be replicated many times. That such assessments were profoundly in error is now a commonplace of modern Freud scholarship and raises the question of how highly intelligent intellectuals could be so mistaken in their reading of Freud. I have attempted a tentative (and grossly inadequate :-) )examination of Freud's Techniques of Persuasion in Chapter 12 of *Seductive Mirage*, but eminent intellectuals/philosophers should surely be able to see through rhetorical strategies of the kind he frequently employed. So what was going on? I'm genuinely puzzled by this phenomenon (also in relation to other instances that I'm sure some TIPSters could suggest). Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: jwarm...@oakton.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752d0dn=Tl=tipso=5597 or send a blank email to leave-5597-49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: tay...@sandiego.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0n=Tl=tipso=5632 or send a blank email to leave-5632-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=5635 or send a blank email to leave-5635-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
