Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Sundling
I found some benchmarks that used another app server, but it's the same 
kind of software as tomcat, so it's a good comparison. The clear answer 
is that a new opteron is what you should get and it's LITERALLY twice as 
good in the role of an application server(like tomcat):

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1149817,00.asp

"Our most important server test for comparing the Opteron to the Xeon in 
an application server scenario is our 32-bit "Nile" application server 
benchmark. The test is both CPU and disk-intensive, and it emulates a 
book-ordering transaction-processing environment modeled on Amazon.com. 
The test uses Oracle 9i as the back-end, running on a Xeon 4P server, 
and uses BEA WebLogic Server 7.0.2 application server software. The BEA 
application server software runs on the test equipment – in this case we 
loaded it on both the 2P Opteron and 2P Xeon systems, with Windows 2000 
with SP3 as the OS. "

" Results on the Nile benchmark showed the dual Opteron system 
outperforming the dual Xeon by a fairly wide margin. Across a 300 to 500 
virtual user load, where transaction processing stabilized with both 
high disk and CPU utilization, the Xeon averaged 7.6 Pages Received per 
second, and the Opteron averaged 15.2 Pages Received per second, double 
the Xeon. In the response time measurements, at the 200 user load, 
average transaction time (start to finish) was approximately 34 seconds 
on the Xeon and 30 seconds on Opteron, but moving to 300 users, Opteron 
stayed at 30 seconds, and Xeon moved to 50 seconds. At 400 users, 
Opteron was 35 seconds, and Xeon was near 80 seconds. And at 500 users 
Opteron was about 50 seconds, and Xeon was near 100 seconds. See Nile 
Benchmark charts below."

20-30 simultaneous users doesn't sound like much. Personally, I'd love 
to get one of those new Opteron servers! 64 bit processor and when the 
real 64 bit windows becomes available in a couple months it could really 
scream and it'd scale up to huge levels of ram if you ever needed it. Or 
it'd be 64 bit already with linux/bsd/solaris/

[you know you've been programming too long when you almost do Ctrl-s 
(like in eclipse) when you're finished with something instead of 
clickong on send]

Paul wrote:

not sure what the load is going to be ... would be nice to be able to
adequately handle aprox. 20-30 simultaneous users.  Not sure if that answers
your question properly.
-pl
- Original Message - 
From: "Cristopher Daniluk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Tomcat Users List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

 

What kind of load? Tomcat and Apache don't use anythign but a few mb of
ram when you're not doing anything :)
-Original Message-
From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:35 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server
what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server
running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with
database backend running on its own dedicated machine)?
probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual
cpu's required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?
-paul lomack





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RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Cristopher Daniluk
Assuming your application is well written and not doing anything
insanely complex, any modestly configured box not running a DB would
handle that load fine. Start with a ~2ghz server, w/1gb of ram as your
baseline, and then add in the level of redundancy you want - failover
nics, failover cpus, RAID configs, etc...

-Original Message-
From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:01 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server


not sure what the load is going to be ... would be nice to be able to
adequately handle aprox. 20-30 simultaneous users.  Not sure if that
answers your question properly. -pl

- Original Message - 
From: "Cristopher Daniluk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Tomcat Users List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server


> What kind of load? Tomcat and Apache don't use anythign but a few mb 
> of ram when you're not doing anything :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:35 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server
>
>
> what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server

> running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with 
> database backend running on its own dedicated machine)?
>
> probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual 
> cpu's required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?
>
> -paul lomack
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>



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Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Paul
not sure what the load is going to be ... would be nice to be able to
adequately handle aprox. 20-30 simultaneous users.  Not sure if that answers
your question properly.
-pl

- Original Message - 
From: "Cristopher Daniluk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Tomcat Users List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server


> What kind of load? Tomcat and Apache don't use anythign but a few mb of
> ram when you're not doing anything :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:35 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server
>
>
> what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server
> running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with
> database backend running on its own dedicated machine)?
>
> probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual
> cpu's required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?
>
> -paul lomack
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>



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RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Cristopher Daniluk
What kind of load? Tomcat and Apache don't use anythign but a few mb of
ram when you're not doing anything :)

-Original Message-
From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:35 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server


what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server
running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with
database backend running on its own dedicated machine)?

probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual
cpu's required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?

-paul lomack





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Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread John Turner
Any decent dual-proc server with 1-2GB RAM would be more than 
sufficient, assuming your application is sane.

My production servers are dual-proc with 6GB RAM (RH Linux) and they 
easily handle hundreds of simultaneous users (not to mention a couple 
dozen Tomcat instances) with intensive CPU usage and intensive 
filesystem I/O (RAID 5).

John

Paul wrote:

not sure what the load is going to be ... would be nice to be able to
adequately handle aprox. 20-30 simultaneous users.  Not sure if that answers
your question properly.
-pl
- Original Message - 
From: "Cristopher Daniluk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Tomcat Users List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server



What kind of load? Tomcat and Apache don't use anythign but a few mb of
ram when you're not doing anything :)
-Original Message-
From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:35 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server
what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server
running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with
database backend running on its own dedicated machine)?
probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual
cpu's required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?
-paul lomack





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Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Sundling
I forgot to point out that in the test where opteron was beating xeon 2 
to 1, it was a 2.8 Ghz Xeon losing to a 1.6 Ghz Opteron!!!  So with 
almost half the clock speed it was twice as good as a Xeon.  That's 
impressive

I found some benchmarks that used another app server, but it's the 
same kind of software as tomcat, so it's a good comparison. The clear 
answer is that a new opteron is what you should get and it's LITERALLY 
twice as good in the role of an application server(like tomcat):

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1149817,00.asp

"Our most important server test for comparing the Opteron to the Xeon 
in an application server scenario is our 32-bit "Nile" application 
server benchmark. The test is both CPU and disk-intensive, and it 
emulates a book-ordering transaction-processing environment modeled on 
Amazon.com. The test uses Oracle 9i as the back-end, running on a Xeon 
4P server, and uses BEA WebLogic Server 7.0.2 application server 
software. The BEA application server software runs on the test 
equipment – in this case we loaded it on both the 2P Opteron and 2P 
Xeon systems, with Windows 2000 with SP3 as the OS. "

" Results on the Nile benchmark showed the dual Opteron system 
outperforming the dual Xeon by a fairly wide margin. Across a 300 to 
500 virtual user load, where transaction processing stabilized with 
both high disk and CPU utilization, the Xeon averaged 7.6 Pages 
Received per second, and the Opteron averaged 15.2 Pages Received per 
second, double the Xeon. In the response time measurements, at the 200 
user load, average transaction time (start to finish) was 
approximately 34 seconds on the Xeon and 30 seconds on Opteron, but 
moving to 300 users, Opteron stayed at 30 seconds, and Xeon moved to 
50 seconds. At 400 users, Opteron was 35 seconds, and Xeon was near 80 
seconds. And at 500 users Opteron was about 50 seconds, and Xeon was 
near 100 seconds. See Nile Benchmark charts below."

20-30 simultaneous users doesn't sound like much. Personally, I'd love 
to get one of those new Opteron servers! 64 bit processor and when the 
real 64 bit windows becomes available in a couple months it could 
really scream and it'd scale up to huge levels of ram if you ever 
needed it. Or it'd be 64 bit already with linux/bsd/solaris/

[you know you've been programming too long when you almost do Ctrl-s 
(like in eclipse) when you're finished with something instead of 
clickong on send]

Paul wrote:



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Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Paul
thanks all, the comments given here have been great toward selecting
hardware for Tomcat/Apache web server in the following ways:

  * super fast and heavy hard disk access not so important if no database on
same machine
  * 64-bit cpu (such as opteron) could be quite significant choice (where
hard disk access is not primary)
  * load testing on development machine useful measurement in choosing
hardware for production system

-pl

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Sundling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server


> I forgot to point out that in the test where opteron was beating xeon 2
> to 1, it was a 2.8 Ghz Xeon losing to a 1.6 Ghz Opteron!!!  So with
> almost half the clock speed it was twice as good as a Xeon.  That's
> impressive
>
> > I found some benchmarks that used another app server, but it's the
> > same kind of software as tomcat, so it's a good comparison. The clear
> > answer is that a new opteron is what you should get and it's LITERALLY
> > twice as good in the role of an application server(like tomcat):
> >
> > http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1149817,00.asp
> >
> > "Our most important server test for comparing the Opteron to the Xeon
> > in an application server scenario is our 32-bit "Nile" application
> > server benchmark. The test is both CPU and disk-intensive, and it
> > emulates a book-ordering transaction-processing environment modeled on
> > Amazon.com. The test uses Oracle 9i as the back-end, running on a Xeon
> > 4P server, and uses BEA WebLogic Server 7.0.2 application server
> > software. The BEA application server software runs on the test
> > equipment – in this case we loaded it on both the 2P Opteron and 2P
> > Xeon systems, with Windows 2000 with SP3 as the OS. "
> >
> > " Results on the Nile benchmark showed the dual Opteron system
> > outperforming the dual Xeon by a fairly wide margin. Across a 300 to
> > 500 virtual user load, where transaction processing stabilized with
> > both high disk and CPU utilization, the Xeon averaged 7.6 Pages
> > Received per second, and the Opteron averaged 15.2 Pages Received per
> > second, double the Xeon. In the response time measurements, at the 200
> > user load, average transaction time (start to finish) was
> > approximately 34 seconds on the Xeon and 30 seconds on Opteron, but
> > moving to 300 users, Opteron stayed at 30 seconds, and Xeon moved to
> > 50 seconds. At 400 users, Opteron was 35 seconds, and Xeon was near 80
> > seconds. And at 500 users Opteron was about 50 seconds, and Xeon was
> > near 100 seconds. See Nile Benchmark charts below."
> >
> > 20-30 simultaneous users doesn't sound like much. Personally, I'd love
> > to get one of those new Opteron servers! 64 bit processor and when the
> > real 64 bit windows becomes available in a couple months it could
> > really scream and it'd scale up to huge levels of ram if you ever
> > needed it. Or it'd be 64 bit already with linux/bsd/solaris/
> >
> > [you know you've been programming too long when you almost do Ctrl-s
> > (like in eclipse) when you're finished with something instead of
> > clickong on send]
> >
> > Paul wrote:
> >
>
>
>
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RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread John Corrigan
Why Win2K Server?  If you want to stick with Windows, save some money and go
with just Win2K Professional.  Unless this machine is doing something else
in addition to Apache and Tomcat I don't know of any advantage in going with
the Server edition.

Why RAID-0?  Disk performance really shouldn't be that much of an issue once
classes have been loaded by Tomcat.  RAID-0 increases the chances of a
failure.  RAID-5, RAID-10, RAID-1, or no RAID at all would be safer choices.

As to CPU choice/quantity, that really depends on the load that you expect.
How many concurrent requests do you think you will see?  It also depends
quite a bit on the application itself.  Have you benchmarked your
application on anything?  I would create a test routine and hit the
development machine to see how much of a load it can handle -- then you can
use that to get an idea of how much hardware you need.

-Original Message-
From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:35 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server


what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server
running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with database
backend running on its own dedicated machine)?

probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual cpu's
required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?

-paul lomack





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RE: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Angus Mezick
Hmm, make sure you have at least 2 webservers and the ability to bring
down at least one of them at any time except when you have been posted
to slashdot :)

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:35 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server
> 
> 
> what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache 
> web server running on Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type 
> web service with database backend running on its own 
> dedicated machine)?
> 
> probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure 
> if dual cpu's required, P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?
> 
> -paul lomack
> 
> 
> 
> 

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hardware recommendation, Tomcat with Apache web server

2003-08-14 Thread Paul
what would be appropriate hardware for a Tomcat with Apache web server running on 
Win2k server (for a public OLTP-type web service with database backend running on its 
own dedicated machine)?

probably use striped (raid-0) scsi drive system, but not sure if dual cpu's required, 
P3, P4 or Zeon system would be appropriate?

-paul lomack