Re: Topband: J6
Re: J6/N7QT I worked him around 02z on the 10th on 80 CW and asked about 160 and he said 'probably tomorrow' but I never heard him that night and I stayed home from an event my wife wanted to go to as well to look for him ... ouch He was on 30 m though. I heard somewhere that they had to share an antenna between 80 and 160 and could do only one band at a time. I heard a local op on the 2meter FM repeater who was on previous Buddipole expeditions, who spoke of this one as if it had already finished. This was last night here. J6 would be new on topband here. I had not heard of any of the other J6 'buddipole' ops being on 160. 73 Bob k2euh Carl Jonsson carl.jonss...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody hrd J6 /N7QT on 160? Heard him on 80 on Dec 11th, but since then nothing. Any news? 73 Carl SM6CPY ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Elevated Radials Questions
Sounds like really effective approaches! I expect that the narrowing of the BW as you added radials was because the additional radials were reducing the losses of the system and therefore raising the Q. Your 130 ft radials were fairly close to 1/4 wave resonance on 160, I would think. I agree with you completely about building and measurement and testing to learn the real answers to out antenna question, I do have antenna modeling software that I have used very successfully on my 160 inverted Ls and various multiband antennas, including killer 5-band quad (single feed line!) But I also take antenna analyzers, my trusty old Millen grid-dip meter (that has retained remarkable calibration after so MANY years) to measure what I've constructed. I'm not above taking a receiver outdoors to ride herd on the grid-dip meter! When I was building the 5-band quad after months of experimentation with the EZNEC programs and carefully determining where the parasitic elements should resonate, I could carefully put them on frequency with the dip-meter/receiver combination and I could watch the driving-point impedance fall into line on each band as the parasites were resonated where the model indicated. I was rewarded with a REMARKABLE killer 5-band antenna for 20-10 meters that was far and away the BEST antenna that I've ever used!! It took months of work with the modeling program, and I learned many things about the interaction of quad elements and developed my own means of suppressing and coping with those, that, as far as I know have never been really explored or published! I suppose I should publish them some day! But I LEARNED SO MUCH!! And with the quad I'd generally run barefoot at 100W frm the FT-1000 MP and generally didn't wait much!! Of course, on 160, I generally turn on the 3-500 afterburner But did work VK3 one morning with 100W to my inverted L! He was CQ'n and I knew that a couple of other locals, including K4CIA were on just a few KHz away, and I didn't have time to tune up the 3-500on 160, so I just called him with what I had going at the moment!! I should mention that I do a lot of antenna work professionally, but those have been mostly embedded VHF and UHF antennas for electricity, gas and water metering etc. Some other projects I have done in similar manner were a 40/30 GP for the KH1 dxpedition some years back It was constructed from a Radio-Shack push-up mast that we guyed, and a parallel 30 m wire and sets of 4 resonant radials for each band. We tuned and measured everyth in the backyard of my friend, Jim, W4RS, who was up near Danville, Va at the time We then disassembled, and packed and shipped to Howland Island by way of Hawaii. It was such a pleasure to be here on the receiving end in NC and listen to the big world-wide pile-ups on 40 and 30 fom my home-brew DXpedition antenna!! Later I designed, modeled and built an 80/75 m death -ray for Jim. It was 5 ground planes -one central driven element and four parasitic ground plane elements in a square around the driven element. The parasites had shorted transmission lines of 450 ohm ladder that could be shorted with relays and a control box in the station to switch the parasitic ground planes from reflector to director tuning thereby enabling the array to be steared in 8 directions aiund the compass rose! It was a MONSTER!! I remember Jim calling an A61 who had a HUGE EU pile- and on first call, the A61 stopped and said Who's the radi0-sugar and Jim worked him handily! I mention that one because all of the 80m ground planes had elevated resonant radials! So, experience teaches me that they are worth the effort! It's worth the effort to do the modeling and measurement and testing when doing antenna work! :) Regards, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ZR Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 8:51 PM To: Grant Saviers; Dennis W0JX Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Elevated Radials Questions The only place Ive found tuned elevated radials being discussed so much is on ham forums. A bit over 20 years ago I installed a slanted wire 1/4 wave vertical for 160 coming off the top guy wire of a 160' tower and about 10' out. Started with 4 radials of roughly 130', trimmed the radiator for best match with zero reactance and measured the 2:1 bandwidth. Added 4 more radials and the BW narrowed, added 8 more and it narrowed a bit more. Added another 16 and no change in BW so I assume the sweet spot is somewhere in the 20's at this location and the radials starting at 12' and slowly sloping to 20' and then thru tree branches. Just the way they were placed likely precludes any chance of resonance. That antenna worked so well I added another, and used nothing but coax phasing lines to switch directions or fire a figure 8 broadside. Cheap, simple and effective unless you like throwing away money for a mailorder solution. YMMV depending on ground effects
Re: Topband: Optimal radial wire type and gauge?
Rick, You will never find out which way is the cheapest. Put down all the radials you can manage, the longer - the better. Do not care about a few USD up/dwn. The more, the better! 73 CU on 160 SM7BIC -Ursprungligt meddelande- Från: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] För Rick Kiessig Skickat: den 14 december 2012 15:30 Till: topband@contesting.com Ämne: Topband: Optimal radial wire type and gauge? The recent talk about optimizing the number of radials has me wondering about the optimal type and gauge for radial wire. I've been using #14 stranded, insulated copper, but for no reason other than it's readily available in 500 ft spools at a decent price. With the cost of copper being so high these days, is there a better choice? If so, how do we know it's really better? And is there an easy way to trade off cost vs. effectiveness? I can't use mesh at my QTH, so I need to stay with actual wire. 73, Rick ZL2HAM ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: PE coated RG6
No problem at all here, using two or three types of compression F connectors. PE jacket flooded direct burial RG6 type cable, one foil and braid, NOT quad shield. They have been in service now for 4 years with no issues. Best part is my local squirrels don't seem to like the taste of polyethylene. 73, Paul On 12/14/2012 10:20 AM, Craig Clark wrote: Anyone have any success installing compression F connectors on polyethylene coated RG6? I am having no luck with either double or quad shield compression or older crimp F connectors. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Fw: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
On 12/13/2012 3:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: Somehow they thought moving the feedpoint eliminated the need for radials with an electrically short antenna, when the real mechanism was a 1/2 wave vertical was converted to a 1/4 wave groundplane 1/4 wave above ground and it only got a tiny bit weaker. The groundplane still had 8 radials, but they were hundreds of feet in the air. There was some more stuff about offsetting the feedpoint in that handout, but nothing that remotely applied to a fractional wavelength vertical just sitting on the dirt with a few radials laying directly on the lawn. They got rid of lossy traps and loading coils by using even lossier coax and some folded wires for a loading system. This is all why, as frequency increases and the current and voltage moves up the antenna, the GAP on most bands isn't terribly bad. This also why it is a real dog of an antenna on 160 and 80, where it is very short electrically, has no ground system, has an exceptionally poor loading method, and where it folds the radiator back and forth which suppresses radiation resistance. This is why a ten foot mobile antenna can tie it or beat it on 160, and why it is reasonably on par with anything else on most bands above 80 meters. 73 Tom I got hold of a brand new voyager about 7 years ago. The first thing I did was throw away all that yellow coax stuffed inside the bottom half. The fiberglass GAP for the elevated feed point makes a nice insulator for a center loading coil. Then I added some top hat wires with dimensions per WX7G's recommendation and fed the antenna from the bottom as a standard ground mounted vertical with a bunch of radials. For 80 meters, I put a short yard arm at the top with a pulley and hung a wire in parallel with the aluminum radiator. For only being 45ft tall this antenna has worked surprisingly well. I've since lengthened it to 56ft and added an additional parallel wire for 40 meters. I use an Ameritron RCS-4 remote switch at the base to select between 160 or 80/40 (the 80 and 40 meter vertical wires are tied together). I use a 50 to 12.5 ohms Unun on the 160 side to raise the feedpoint Z up to 50 ohms. With all these modifications done in haste before various contests it aint pretty to look at, but it does seem to hold its own against folks with shunt-fed towers and inverted-Ls (at least the ones who don't use overly active antenna tuners :-) ). Here are some pictures of it when I took a trip to one of the dry lake beds north of here: http://www.dellroy.com/W4EF's-Ham-Radio-Page/CQ160/2006.htm 73, Mike W4EF... ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Length of 'T' Top Hat wires?
Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Is there any theory to the 25% rule? The 25% rule says the ends of the top hat wires should not extend more than 25% down the vertical. The thought is that the wires shield the main vertical ... that the currents on the top hat wires cause cancellation. Once the tips of the top hat wires get 25% down the vertical, the theory is that the cancellation/reduced radiation resistance offset any gains from the added electrical height. It is easy to model this with EZNEC, and the rule of thumb turns out to be pretty good. I obey the rule on my 90 ft vertical. I violate the rule on my 60 ft vertical, because I was in a hurry and didn't want to fool with a loading coil at the base. The radiation resistance (as modeled) goes down but reaches a point of diminishing returns around 25% point. Going beyond that doesn't necessary make the radiation resistance go back up; it just stops going down and then all the additionial length is doing is saving loading inductance at the base. Anecdotally, in the recent 160M contest, the 60 foot vertical seemed like it worked as well as the previous 90 foot vertical, which worked really well. Rick N6RK ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: PE coated RG6
Craig Clark wrote: Anyone have any success installing compression F connectors on polyethylene coated RG6? I am having no luck with either double or quad shield compression or older crimp F connectors. Craig Clark K1QX An old trick that works with hoses on barb connectors is to heat up the hose by dunking it in a jar of hot (near boiling) water. Works every time. I'm thinking that one quick dunk in water won't hurt the RG6 if you dry it out afterwards with a heat gun. You could also try heating the coax with the heat gun instead of using hot water. If you try this, let us know how it works. BTW, where do you buy PE jacketed RG6; I'm looking for some for my satellite TV feed. Rick N6RK ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: J6
Hi Carl, I was in e-mail contact with N7QT during his J6 operation, which finished a couple of days ago. You are right, the antenna had to be shared with 160m and 80m, and for some reason could not be switched during the night. Hence, they had to commit to one band or the other before sundown. I found the operation on 160 very spotty, almost not really serious. I guess it was mainly a holiday operation. I had several skeds with them. On one occasion the sked didn't happen because the other op decided he wanted 80m that night. On another occasion, they operated on 1837, up in the digital modes segment, and I didn't even tune as high as that. On the last night apparently their antenna fell down, and they found it on the ground in the morning. Apparently they thought the band was a bit quiet - I wondered to myself how it was that they didn't notice something wrong with the SWR! All in all a bit of a non-event from my point of view. 73, Greg ZL3IX On 2012-12-15 12:19 a.m., Carl Jonsson wrote: Anybody hrd J6 /N7QT on 160? Heard him on 80 on Dec 11th, but since then nothing. Any news? 73 Carl SM6CPY ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: raised radials
the more i read, it seems raised radials are a fairly easy way to raise the effeciancy of a short vertical. i have a hy-gain 18ht with base loading. can i use these raised radials with this antenna, and if so how to do it. it is impossible to raise the whole antenna to get the base off the ground. david/wd4kpd -- God's law is set in stone..everything else is negotiable. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: raised radials
the more i read, it seems raised radials are a fairly easy way to raise the effeciancy of a short vertical. Only if the original ground system is a meager system with significant loss. At my QTH on 40 meters, 4 elevated radials at 6 feet above ground were about equal to 12-15 radials in the earth. That would be like 4 radials 24 feet above earth on 160. The difference between them was the elevated radials only worked OK on one or two bands (like 40 and 15), while the buried wires were reasonably good on 160-10 meters, out of view, and protected for lightning. i have a hy-gain 18ht with base loading. can i use these raised radials with this antenna, and if so how to do it. it is impossible to raise the whole antenna to get the base off the ground. Since the antenna is an all band antenna, I don't think I would use a resonant radial. I'd just bury as many radials as I could as long and straight as possible, and enjoy all the bands. If you had 10-20 radials 60 feet or more long, it would be tough to make any improvement on lower bands. If you use a resonant radial system, it really should be ground isolated. That complicates things. This 10-20 loss thing, at least to me, appears to be based on anecdotal unconfirmed opinions. Like deer whistles on cars. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: Fw: The Idiot's Guide To Bi-Directional Two-Wire BeverageConstruction...
The beverage notes web page may be of some help. www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html I like 600 ohms . Losses go up faster when vegetation comes in contact with wires if the impedance goes much higher. I try to keep the wires clear even at 600 ohms. 73 Bruce-K1FZ On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca wrote: I wonder if I might prevail upon any all with some first-hand real-world experience as to the criticalness (if any) between the two wires running the length span of a 2-wire bi-directional Beverage...? Just how important is a continuos pre-set distance between the wires, anyway...? And who was it that came up with the necessity of equally-spaced wire...? And how did they determine the optimum distance the wires...? ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: PE coated RG6
Just completed cables for an active receive 4 square with Commscope PE jacketed flooded RG6 (660-BEF), 1000' on ebay for $35. I used the weathertight compression fittings and a Radio Shack stepped prep cutter. RS has the tools cheap. Extra care is needed to remove the braid shards since the flooding goop causes them to stick to everything. It is also a challenge to push the cable far enough into the connector, next time I'll try the heat gun idea. I found trimming the braid away with a flush cutting wire snipper was helpful, but still have pretty sore hands. Grant KZ1W Grant, Did you use the screw-on tool from RS to push the connectors on the RG6? It sure makes it a lot easier. I use only the crimp style connectors. 73 Price W0RI ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: PE coated RG6
Hi Craig, I bought a new roll of flooded quad shield RG-6 and packages of connectors from 5 sources because they are cheap until I found a package that worked. Here is the one that worked great. Note: this is for Quad Shield and Flooded (with Poly.). If you have Double shield it may not work. Seller: fourpairteledata ( 44493 ) Item Title Price Shipping Price Qty Item Total 10 Pack Lot - F-Type Compression Connector Male Plug RG6 Quad Shield Coax Cable ( 120796092561 ) Paid on Jul-31-12 $6.95 Free 1 $6.95 Shipped on Aug-01-12 USPS First Class Package Estimated delivery: Varies* You can contact seller for more information. Tracking: 9400110200828444898792 --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Craig Clark jccl...@myfairpoint.net wrote: From: Craig Clark jccl...@myfairpoint.net Subject: Topband: PE coated RG6 To: y...@contesting.com, topband@contesting.com, hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi...@hizantennas.com Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 10:20 AM Anyone have any success installing compression F connectors on polyethylene coated RG6? I am having no luck with either double or quad shield compression or older crimp F connectors. Craig Clark K1QX QX Electronics PO Box 209 107 Fitzgerald Rd Rindge NH 03461 (603) 899-6959 office (603) 520 6577 cell ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: PE coated RG6
Forgot to say these were purch. on eBay and the same company sells Dual Shield Connectors: RG6 Quad Shield Compression F-Type Connectors DESCRIPTION Quantity: 10 For use with RG6 Quad Shield Cable (Not suitable for dual shield cable, look in our store for RG6 dual shield connectors) F-Type Compression Male Waterproof Same company sells Dual shield compression connectors on eBay. Search for 'fourpairteledata' --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Jim F. j_fit...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Jim F. j_fit...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Topband: PE coated RG6 To: Craig Clark jccl...@myfairpoint.net, Jim j_fit...@yahoo.com Cc: top Band topband@contesting.com Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 6:49 PM Hi Craig, I bought a new roll of flooded quad shield RG-6 and packages of connectors from 5 sources because they are cheap until I found a package that worked. Here is the one that worked great. Note: this is for Quad Shield and Flooded (with Poly.). If you have Double shield it may not work. Seller: fourpairteledata ( 44493 ) Item Title Price Shipping Price Qty Item Total 10 Pack Lot - F-Type Compression Connector Male Plug RG6 Quad Shield Coax Cable ( 120796092561 ) Paid on Jul-31-12 $6.95 Free 1 $6.95 Shipped on Aug-01-12 USPS First Class Package Estimated delivery: Varies* You can contact seller for more information. Tracking: 9400110200828444898792 --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Craig Clark jccl...@myfairpoint.net wrote: From: Craig Clark jccl...@myfairpoint.net Subject: Topband: PE coated RG6 To: y...@contesting.com, topband@contesting.com, hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi...@hizantennas.com Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 10:20 AM Anyone have any success installing compression F connectors on polyethylene coated RG6? I am having no luck with either double or quad shield compression or older crimp F connectors. Craig Clark K1QX QX Electronics PO Box 209 107 Fitzgerald Rd Rindge NH 03461 (603) 899-6959 office (603) 520 6577 cell ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Optimal radial wire type and gauge?
Hi, Rick Well, 14 ga stranded wire should be fine for radials - although you might want to pre-stretch it. I have occasionally used smaller gauge wire - 16 gauge or even 18 gauge stranded with black PVC insulation for lower visibility. Regards, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Rick Kiessig Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:30 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Optimal radial wire type and gauge? The recent talk about optimizing the number of radials has me wondering about the optimal type and gauge for radial wire. I've been using #14 stranded, insulated copper, but for no reason other than it's readily available in 500 ft spools at a decent price. With the cost of copper being so high these days, is there a better choice? If so, how do we know it's really better? And is there an easy way to trade off cost vs. effectiveness? I can't use mesh at my QTH, so I need to stay with actual wire. 73, Rick ZL2HAM ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Optimal radial wire type and gauge?
I use whatever I can find at the lowest cost which has been mostly #16 and 18 stranded and insulated in 500-1000' reels at a local surplus shop. Ive even used #22 when the other wasnt on hand and it was a weekend. With the current split thru a sufficient number of wires there shouldnt be any unecessary loss. You can also run a thicker wire for the first 50' of so where the current is highest and then splice in the smaller wire. This may be of interest when having to buy new wire at retail cost. There has been very little breakage here from storm damage over the decades since the wires just lay on the branches and are not tied off tight. The sine wave droop is a good way to get 130' of wire in less horizontal space (-; Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Rick Kiessig kies...@gmail.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:29 AM Subject: Topband: Optimal radial wire type and gauge? The recent talk about optimizing the number of radials has me wondering about the optimal type and gauge for radial wire. I've been using #14 stranded, insulated copper, but for no reason other than it's readily available in 500 ft spools at a decent price. With the cost of copper being so high these days, is there a better choice? If so, how do we know it's really better? And is there an easy way to trade off cost vs. effectiveness? I can't use mesh at my QTH, so I need to stay with actual wire. 73, Rick ZL2HAM ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2634/5459 - Release Date: 12/14/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: raised radials
A ground screen mesh extending out at least 25' from the base would reduces losses considerably since just 10-20 radials has little effect. At a prior QTH, going from 100 radials of 60-130' to spokes of 4' x 50' rabbit wire mesh on top of them made the difference between also ran and pileup busting on 160. Id call that at least 10dB in anybodys book. My soil was like beach sand altho 20 miles from the ocean; likely leftover from the iceage roll back. - Original Message - From: David Michael Gaytko // WD4KPD wd4...@suddenlink.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 2:04 PM Subject: Topband: raised radials the more i read, it seems raised radials are a fairly easy way to raise the effeciancy of a short vertical. i have a hy-gain 18ht with base loading. can i use these raised radials with this antenna, and if so how to do it. it is impossible to raise the whole antenna to get the base off the ground. david/wd4kpd -- God's law is set in stone..everything else is negotiable. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2634/5459 - Release Date: 12/14/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
