Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

WOW, keith!  that's plenty of 'excitement'..
thanks to all, for advice and recommendations.  my house was built in '94, but 
outside the city limits, where 'code' gets a little sloppythough still in 
an HOA / CCR subdivision...there is PLENTY of man-made crud to listen to, and 
I'd just like to get rid of as much as possible, at least on my property...
special thanks to K9YC for another comprehensive reference...
have we beaten this to death, Tree?
73, w5xz, dan
 


 On Friday, October 30, 2015 3:04 PM, Keith Jillings (G3OIT) 
 wrote:
   

 On 30/10/2015 19:49, Art Snapper wrote:

> At the risk of sounding redundant, be very careful when messing around with
> the bonding/grounding of the electrical panel.
> Over the years I have seen significant current on these circuits due to a
> wiring fault at the pole or on the drop to the house.

Indeed!  We used to own a cottage half way up a mountain in North 
Wales.  The incoming "earth" wire from the pole was at something like 
120 volts above ground (nominal voltage is 230).  We found out when my 
wife was cleaning the porch floor, standing outside the front door, and 
got a shock through the mop.

We thought we had a separate earth to a spike in the ground (we did, but 
it wasn't properly connected).  I poked that with an insulated 
screwdriver, there was a flash and a loud bang, and the house earth 
dropped to zero potential.  The lights in a house down the road went out.

Never did hear any more about that.


Keith

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[mstangelo]

My water meter is outside and the feed to the house is via plastic pipe.

My electrical panel ground is connected to the plumbing at the point closest to 
the electrical panel.

There is a piece of copper pipe soldered across the cold and hot water pipes 
near the water heater.

Mike N2MS

- Original Message -
From: Tim Shoppa 
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:47:57 - (UTC)
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

I assumed the "central point" Jim was referring to, was a central point for
the plumbing. For the electrical side, this is a no brainer, it has to be
the entrance panel.

I have observed in my neighborhood, that the plumbing is usually bonded to
ground just after the water meter. That seems like a "central point" to me.
The bonding wire can be very long if the electrical service panel is on a
different side of the house than the water main.

My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out pipe.
I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.

I think other counties have a requirement that there be a similar jumper
around the water meter or around the shutoff valves near the water meter.
The folklore I've heard with that, is that this was needed when the
electrical code was OK with using cold water pipe as an electrical ground.

Tim.

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,10/30/2015 11:47 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:

I assumed the "central point" Jim was referring to, was a central point for
the plumbing. For the electrical side, this is a no brainer, it has to be
the entrance panel.


Or to the combination of grounds that is bonded to the entry panel.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
> ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out pipe.
> I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
> electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.
>

This is why the subject of this thread needs to be
checked/rectified/inspected through the eyes of a local licensed
electrician and local electrical inspectors, so that local additions to or
variations on NEC are in effect on one's own premises. The legal local code
is what will come to bear in case of fires, injuries, etc.

DIY on this particular subject is really not so good an idea. I do know of
a few DIYers that actually took the electrical licensing courses at the
local community college and got the license, which included the variations
for nearby counties. But they also had friends in building contracting for
a source of local wisdom.

Local wisdom like the stuff that the local electrical inspectors are hard
about. You take your chances in the process if you don't have experience
with the local jurisdiction.

So you have the NEC, possible additions for your State, possible additions
for your county, and possible additions for your local jurisdiction. Then
you have the inspectors.

Electrical advice via a 160 meter ham radio reflector from individuals
scattered all over the globe? Even individuals qualified in their
particular location. What could possibly go wrong  :>)

73, Guy K2AV
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

ok...another thing i've wondered about...
every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
nearby..
should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
w5xz

 


 On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
 wrote:
   

 It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
>
>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
>>
>
> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>


-- 
Sent via Gmail Mobile on my iPhone
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only 
when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.


73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

ok...another thing i've wondered about...
every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
nearby..
should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
w5xz

  



  On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
 wrote:



  It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:


On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:


all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
entrance...should I tie it in too ??


NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.

73, Jim K9YC
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband





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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tim Shoppa]

I assumed the "central point" Jim was referring to, was a central point for
the plumbing. For the electrical side, this is a no brainer, it has to be
the entrance panel.

I have observed in my neighborhood, that the plumbing is usually bonded to
ground just after the water meter. That seems like a "central point" to me.
The bonding wire can be very long if the electrical service panel is on a
different side of the house than the water main.

My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out pipe.
I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.

I think other counties have a requirement that there be a similar jumper
around the water meter or around the shutoff valves near the water meter.
The folklore I've heard with that, is that this was needed when the
electrical code was OK with using cold water pipe as an electrical ground.

Tim.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards <
dan.n.edwa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> 'central point' being my main service breaker box?
> it's a good distance away from any plumbing...
>
>
>
>  On Friday, October 30, 2015 12:28 PM, Jim Brown <
> j...@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>  No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only
> when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.
>
> 73, Jim
>
> On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
> > ok...another thing i've wondered about...
> > every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet
> quite nearby..
> > should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
> > w5xz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <
> k2av@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
> > electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of
> the
> > slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
> > end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with
> the
> > copper pipe in a weather protected spot.
> >
> > If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who
> can
> > check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
> > where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.
> >
> > You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
> > spicket copper pipe and the power ground.
> >
> > If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.
> >
> > 73, Guy K2AV
> >
> > On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
> >>
> >>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i
> have
> >>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
> >>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
> >>>
> >> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
> >>
> >> 73, Jim K9YC
> >> _
> >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >>
> >
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

'central point' being my main service breaker box?
it's a good distance away from any plumbing...
 


 On Friday, October 30, 2015 12:28 PM, Jim Brown 
 wrote:
   

 No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only 
when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.

73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
> ok...another thing i've wondered about...
> every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
> nearby..
> should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
> w5xz
>
>  
>
>
>      On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
> wrote:
>    
>
>  It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
> electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
> slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
> end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
> copper pipe in a weather protected spot.
>
> If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
> check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
> where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.
>
> You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
> spicket copper pipe and the power ground.
>
> If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:
>
>> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
>>
>>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
>>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
>>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
>>>
>> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[w7dra]

corrrect me if i am wrong (seems i get more wrong than i used to) the
"Central Point" is where the white neutral buss, the green ground buss
and the ground rod return all come togtether 

mike w7dra


American Express Travel
Earn 2x Points When You Book at Amextravel.com. Book Now! Terms Apply.
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

Yes, or where other premises grounds are tied together. Systems like 
Telco, CATV, satellite, even lightning rods if there are any, building 
steel if there is any.


73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 11:03 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

'central point' being my main service breaker box?
it's a good distance away from any plumbing...
  



  On Friday, October 30, 2015 12:28 PM, Jim Brown 
 wrote:



  No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only
when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.

73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

ok...another thing i've wondered about...
every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
nearby..
should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
w5xz

   



   On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
 wrote:
 


   It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:


On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:


all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
entrance...should I tie it in too ??


NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.

73, Jim K9YC
_
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Art Snapper]

At the risk of sounding redundant, be very careful when messing around with
the bonding/grounding of the electrical panel.
Over the years I have seen significant current on these circuits due to a
wiring fault at the pole or on the drop to the house.

Art NK8X
ᐧ

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
>
> > My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
> > ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out
> pipe.
> > I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
> > electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.
> >
>
> This is why the subject of this thread needs to be
> checked/rectified/inspected through the eyes of a local licensed
> electrician and local electrical inspectors, so that local additions to or
> variations on NEC are in effect on one's own premises. The legal local code
> is what will come to bear in case of fires, injuries, etc.
>
> DIY on this particular subject is really not so good an idea. I do know of
> a few DIYers that actually took the electrical licensing courses at the
> local community college and got the license, which included the variations
> for nearby counties. But they also had friends in building contracting for
> a source of local wisdom.
>
> Local wisdom like the stuff that the local electrical inspectors are hard
> about. You take your chances in the process if you don't have experience
> with the local jurisdiction.
>
> So you have the NEC, possible additions for your State, possible additions
> for your county, and possible additions for your local jurisdiction. Then
> you have the inspectors.
>
> Electrical advice via a 160 meter ham radio reflector from individuals
> scattered all over the globe? Even individuals qualified in their
> particular location. What could possibly go wrong  :>)
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Keith Jillings (G3OIT)]

On 30/10/2015 19:22, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> Electrical advice via a 160 meter ham radio reflector from individuals
> scattered all over the globe? Even individuals qualified in their
> particular location. What could possibly go wrong  :>)

Exactly so!

Where I am, ALL the copper pipes in the cupboard where the water main 
enters the house, and via which the hot and cold water and heating pipes 
head into the boiler and off in their various directions, are bonded 
together.


It's not thin stuff - it's thick multistrand cable, clamped to each pipe 
with a large red and silver metal label saying "Safety Electrical Earth 
- Do Not Remove".   That's mandatory in the UK and (I suspect) in the 
rest of the EU.


The incoming water main is in the regulation blue plastic pipe (blue = 
potable), but there is a mains earth which I think is a cluster of 
copper rods hammered into the ground.   The house is 500 years old and 
the earth connection is under the cupboard floor, so I don't mess with it.

We don't get a lot of RFI noise coming in that way.

There is similar bonding between the hot and cold pipes at the bathroom 
sink, the bath, the kitchen sink, the utility room sink, and so on.   My 
ohmmeter reads zero between any pair of copper pipes I can get to.


There are, of course, no power sockets in the bathroom or toilet within 
reach of the sink.  That's been banned here for a very long time:  fused 
transformers are supplied for shavers.   Light switches are the "drop 
cord" type, although conventional switches are allowed if they meet the 
latest safety regulations or are more than some distance from the sink.



73

Keith
G3OIT
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Keith Jillings (G3OIT)]

On 30/10/2015 19:49, Art Snapper wrote:


At the risk of sounding redundant, be very careful when messing around with
the bonding/grounding of the electrical panel.
Over the years I have seen significant current on these circuits due to a
wiring fault at the pole or on the drop to the house.


Indeed!   We used to own a cottage half way up a mountain in North 
Wales.  The incoming "earth" wire from the pole was at something like 
120 volts above ground (nominal voltage is 230).  We found out when my 
wife was cleaning the porch floor, standing outside the front door, and 
got a shock through the mop.


We thought we had a separate earth to a spike in the ground (we did, but 
it wasn't properly connected).   I poked that with an insulated 
screwdriver, there was a flash and a loud bang, and the house earth 
dropped to zero potential.  The lights in a house down the road went out.


Never did hear any more about that.


Keith

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