Re: Topband: - Belden Snap n Seal

[David Harmon]

Yepme too.
I got everything at Lowes.tools and all.

One small thing.
The correct part number is SNS1P6U-50R.
The writing is small and Hank had a 5 in place of the second S.

Also...the color of the connector indicates what coax is supposed to be
used.
Red is the correct color in this case.
There is a chart on the Belden site indicating the color vs coax etc.
As I rememberthe box of 50 was about $26


73

David Harmon
K6XYZ
Sperry, OK


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of HP
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:09 PM
To: Mike Waters 
Cc: topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: - Belden Snap n Seal

I bought a box of 50 Belden Snap N Seal - the box says RG-6/6QS which I
assumed meant it was ok for both but have never used it on anything but
regular RG6 - I have the Belden Tool which I bought at same time. - part
number of the connector is SN51P6U-50R It was at LOWES and was much less
than ordering from a ham supplier . I cant find my receipt but remember it
beat u know who by a LOT. 73 Hank K7HP _ Topband Reflector
Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: UNSUBSCRIPE ME PLEASE

[Mike Waters]

The instructions for unsubscribing are at
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:01 PM, August via Topband 
wrote:

>
> Please take me off your list.
> WA1JD
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: UNSUBSCRIPE ME PLEASE

[August via Topband]

Please take me off your list. 
WA1JD  
TUBES GLOW

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: - Belden Snap n Seal

[HP]

I bought a box of 50 Belden Snap N Seal - the box says RG-6/6QS which I assumed 
meant it was ok for both but have never used it on anything but regular RG6 - I 
have the Belden Tool which I bought at same time. - part number of the 
connector is SN51P6U-50R It was at LOWES and was much less than ordering from a 
ham supplier . I cant find my receipt but remember it beat u know who by a LOT. 
73 Hank K7HP 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Mike Waters]

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 3:30 PM, N2TK, Tony  wrote:

> Crimp on F-connectors is the way to go. If you do it right it is very
> difficult to pull off the connector. Wedge it I a vise and try to pull out
> the coax.
>

IF you get the good crimp-ons!

Can anyone recommend a source? I only have a few left. They come with
silicone dielectric compound pre-applied inside.

There's also Belden Snap-n-Seal connectors. Their length is compressed
using a special tool, which in turn crimps down on the coax jacket using a
plastic tube with a molded-in taper. They have different IDs; smaller for
dual-shield coax and larger for quad-shield. If you use the ones intended
for quad-shield on dual-shield coax, they'll pull out too easy. (Don't ask
me how I know that. ;-)

Can anyone recommend a source for good and cheap Snap-n-Seal connectors for
dual-shield coax?

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Dale Putnam]

Wes, has it..

these installations MUST take into consideration the effect of LOCAL conditions.

With an average humidity of less than 25%, and an annual rainfall of 10 
inches.. the high desert doesn't have water filled conduit (PVC) tubing full of 
water. IF it did.. there would be someone putting in pumps and lines to water 
the gardern, feed the house, and water the crops. Oh.. wait.. they are.. but 
the water comes from 700 + feed down. (Big motor - Big pump - Big conduit - aka 
irrigation tube is 6 inch dia.)

  Where Guy worked.. had to much wetter, and conduit likely filled at its own 
discretion. Where Wes lives, not nearly so much.

  Learn, and work smarter.



Have a great day,
--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

"Actions speak louder than words"
1856 - Abraham Lincoln


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[N2TK, Tony]

Hi Jeff,
I have been using Commscope F660BEF flooded RG6 for years. I direct bury it.
It has a PE jacket. It is used for all receive antenna feedlines. Also use
it on 80M. Crimp on F-connectors is the way to go. If you do it right it is
very difficult to pull off the connector. Wedge it I a vise and try to pull
out the coax.

In regards to direct bury, I dug a trench about a foot deep. Lines with
about 4" of sand. Laid in the cables then covered to the surface with sand.
The grass grew over it. I have had to add a cable a number of years ago. It
was fairly easy to open up the trench, remove enough sand, lay down another
cable and recover with sand. So far 25 years in the ground. I buried RG6,
Buryflex, 7/8" hardline,  9913 and control cables.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Draughn
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 12:02 PM
To: Dale Putnam ; Wes Attaway (N5WA)

Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question

I've never used RG-6 flooded, if the material is sticky how tough is it to
get a good connection to the connector??

I'm getting ready to use some and just curious what I'm getting into.

Thanks

Jeff, N0OST


On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:44 AM Wes Attaway (N5WA)

wrote:

> I installed 4 runs of BuryFlex through my slab and then out into the
>
> backyard about 15-years ago (when we built a new house) and it is 
> still
>
> working fine.  I have conduit through the slab (open at both ends) but 
> the
>
> cable is direct buried out in the yard (about 24" deep).
>
>
>
>---
>
> Wes Attaway (N5WA)
>
> (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
>
> Computer/Cellphone Forensics
>
> AttawayForensics.com
>
>---
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> Dale
>
> Putnam
>
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:13 AM
>
> Cc: topband@contesting.com
>
> Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question
>
>
>
> must have to do with the annual rainfall.
>
>
>
> I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs 
> of 6 in
>
> conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around 
> that
>
> are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am
>
> speaking of is PVC TUBE..   pretty much the same stuff that carries the
>
> water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that 
> is the
>
> description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't 
> rated
>
> for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where
>
> squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with 
> the
>
> weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the
>
> sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to 
> short
>
> the coax..   and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a great day,
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>
>
> "Actions speak louder than words"
>
> 1856 - Abraham Lincoln
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: guyk...@gmail.com  on behalf of Guy Olinger 
> K2AV
>
> 
>
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM
>
> To: Dale Putnam
>
> Cc: topband@contesting.com
>
> Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question
>
>
>
> Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping 
> microwave
>
> waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the 
> conduit at
>
> one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is 
> dry
>
> enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, 
> or run
>
> it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without 
> pumping and
>
> or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions:
>
>
>
> 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost.
>
> If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you 
> probably
>
> need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the 
> new
>
> rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move 
> on to
>
> the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of 
> residence,
>
> and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years 
> absent
>
> direct lightning strike, then read on.
>
>
>
> 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state 
> unless you
>
> specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first
>
> installed, filled with water is their most probable state.
>
>
>
> This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as
>
>
>
> a) Critter protection, and
>
>
>
> b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof 
> pull
>
> ropes are left in conduit,  a method of adding or replacing cables 
> that
>
> avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the 

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Brian Pease]

I installed buryflex along with direct burial control cables last year.  
I learned that it is best to directly bury the cables without conduit.  
Water from condensation will eventually fill the conduit even if rain 
doesn't get in.  Possibly a different story in low humidity areas, I 
suppose, but I am in VT.  I have actually seen humidity fill multiple 
vertical pipes 2 feet high with condensation.


On 10/5/2017 2:56 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

It's really dangerous to make these "all" statements.

I've been keeping rainfall numbers and reporting them to rainlog.org 
for 11 years.  My last measurable rain was 0.02 inches on Sept 14. The 
total for this year is 7.74 inches.  If I want my conduit filled with 
water I need to use a garden hose :-)


Wes  N7WS

On 10/5/2017 7:12 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless
you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than 
first

installed, filled with water is their most probable state.


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Interplanetary DX

[Tree]

True of False - there is an 80 meter half wave dipole orbiting Mars?

http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/~dag/publications/2009_TheMarsExpressMARSISSounderInstrument_PSS.pdf

Wonder if anyone on Earth could detect the signal - but I suspect with 5
watts ERP - that it would be impossible.

Tree N6TR
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Wes Stewart]

It's really dangerous to make these "all" statements.

I've been keeping rainfall numbers and reporting them to rainlog.org for 11 
years.  My last measurable rain was 0.02 inches on Sept 14. The total for this 
year is 7.74 inches.  If I want my conduit filled with water I need to use a 
garden hose :-)


Wes  N7WS

On 10/5/2017 7:12 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless
you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first
installed, filled with water is their most probable state.


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Mike Waters]

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Gert Meinen  wrote:

> Never use PVC drain pipe to bury coax ...
>

Not even flooded coax?

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Gert Meinen]

Hi John,

Never use PVC drain pipe to bury coax or other cable, the molecules are that
far apart that water eventually gets in no matter what.
Better to use the same pipe your water supplier uses to get the water to
your house, think its Polypropylene or something like that. That pipe will
not let water out or in, the water company hates to lose water. That's why
they don't use PVC which is a lot cheaper and mostly used for draining water
when that leaks through the material into the ground nobody knows or cares.

73 Gert, PA3AAV

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] Namens John
Verzonden: donderdag 5 oktober 2017 8:11
Aan: topband@contesting.com
Onderwerp: Topband: underground cables question

Hi all, some  years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my
field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m
vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in
the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 wave
apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I noticed
it dropped off and I suspected water ingress. An insulation test with 1000v
from my electricians test equipment showed indeed a fall in insulation
resistance.

So my question is I have a couple of large reels of commscope F1160 BEF
flooded 75 ohm
do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some water
in or would you make alternative arrangements . I realise it a direct bury
coax but appreciate advice.

I wish to get the two verticals going again will use 1 X 3/4 line above
ground 1x5/4 line part in conduit and a 1/2 wave to switch in and out above
ground.

regards


John Beaumont
G4EIM


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: RX/TX Antenna decoupling

[Pete Rimmel N8PR]

Trevor,

as well as the link from Chavdar, you might look at this You Tube video I 
made on detuning the TX antenna for reducing RX noise:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38G-awzhQH0=13s

73,  PeteR  N8PR


To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband:  RX/TX Antenna decoupling


  Hello Trevor,
   Read this link - it might be helpful to detune your TX antenna.

" Impact of Resonant TX antennas on the Radiation Pattern of RX Directional 
Antennas. Detuning of TX Antennas."


http://www.lz1aq.signacor.com/docs/resonance-impact/resonance-impact.pdf

73 Chavdar LZ1AQ



--


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Jeff Draughn]

I've never used RG-6 flooded, if the material is sticky how tough is it to
get a good connection to the connector??

I'm getting ready to use some and just curious what I'm getting into.

Thanks

Jeff, N0OST


On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:44 AM Wes Attaway (N5WA) 
wrote:

> I installed 4 runs of BuryFlex through my slab and then out into the
>
> backyard about 15-years ago (when we built a new house) and it is still
>
> working fine.  I have conduit through the slab (open at both ends) but the
>
> cable is direct buried out in the yard (about 24" deep).
>
>
>
>---
>
> Wes Attaway (N5WA)
>
> (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
>
> Computer/Cellphone Forensics
>
> AttawayForensics.com
>
>---
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dale
>
> Putnam
>
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:13 AM
>
> Cc: topband@contesting.com
>
> Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question
>
>
>
> must have to do with the annual rainfall.
>
>
>
> I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs of 6
> in
>
> conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around that
>
> are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am
>
> speaking of is PVC TUBE..   pretty much the same stuff that carries the
>
> water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that is
> the
>
> description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't
> rated
>
> for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where
>
> squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with the
>
> weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the
>
> sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to short
>
> the coax..   and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a great day,
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>
>
> "Actions speak louder than words"
>
> 1856 - Abraham Lincoln
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: guyk...@gmail.com  on behalf of Guy Olinger K2AV
>
> 
>
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM
>
> To: Dale Putnam
>
> Cc: topband@contesting.com
>
> Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question
>
>
>
> Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave
>
> waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit
> at
>
> one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry
>
> enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or
> run
>
> it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and
>
> or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions:
>
>
>
> 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost.
>
> If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably
>
> need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new
>
> rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to
>
> the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence,
>
> and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent
>
> direct lightning strike, then read on.
>
>
>
> 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless
> you
>
> specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first
>
> installed, filled with water is their most probable state.
>
>
>
> This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as
>
>
>
> a) Critter protection, and
>
>
>
> b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull
>
> ropes are left in conduit,  a method of adding or replacing cables that
>
> avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are
>
> significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough
>
> reason to use them. However...
>
>
>
> 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing.
>
> Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant
>
> for indoor use.
>
>
>
> Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly
>
> available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is
>
> nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other
>
> permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any
>
> miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with
>
> ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO
>
> TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE
>
> knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested
>
> by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on
>
> the retail market to recover costs.
>
>
>
> High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use
>
> the 

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Wes Attaway (N5WA)]

I installed 4 runs of BuryFlex through my slab and then out into the
backyard about 15-years ago (when we built a new house) and it is still
working fine.  I have conduit through the slab (open at both ends) but the
cable is direct buried out in the yard (about 24" deep).

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Putnam
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:13 AM
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question

must have to do with the annual rainfall.

I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs of 6 in
conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around that
are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am
speaking of is PVC TUBE..   pretty much the same stuff that carries the
water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that is the
description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't rated
for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where
squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with the
weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the
sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to short
the coax..   and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short.


Have a great day,
--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

"Actions speak louder than words"
1856 - Abraham Lincoln



From: guyk...@gmail.com  on behalf of Guy Olinger K2AV

Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM
To: Dale Putnam
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question

Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave
waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit at
one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry
enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or run
it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and
or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions:

1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost.
If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably
need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new
rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to
the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence,
and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent
direct lightning strike, then read on.

2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you
specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first
installed, filled with water is their most probable state.

This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as

a) Critter protection, and

b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull
ropes are left in conduit,  a method of adding or replacing cables that
avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are
significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough
reason to use them. However...

3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing.
Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant
for indoor use.

Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly
available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is
nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other
permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any
miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with
ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO
TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE
knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested
by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on
the retail market to recover costs.

High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use
the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at
home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet
environments.

4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where
waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing.
Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and internal
insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're just
asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you will be
# 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and DXpedition
dates, AND has a malevolent nature.

73, Guy K2AV


On Thu, Oct 5, 

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Dale Putnam]

must have to do with the annual rainfall.

I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs of 6 in 
conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around that are 
still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am speaking of is 
PVC TUBE..   pretty much the same stuff that carries the water into your house. 
IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that is the description that Guy so 
aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't rated for water per code in the 
electrical code either. I have seen where squirrels somehow managed to work the 
metal conduit hard enough with the weather helping, to access the coax inside.. 
they didn't much like the sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from 
eating enough to short the coax..   and of course Muphy made it an intermittent 
short.


Have a great day,
--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

"Actions speak louder than words"
1856 - Abraham Lincoln



From: guyk...@gmail.com  on behalf of Guy Olinger K2AV 

Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM
To: Dale Putnam
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question

Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave 
waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit at 
one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry 
enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or run it 
with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and or can 
be suctioned, then make these assumptions:

1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. If 
you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably need not 
worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new rental place. 
Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to the next posting. 
If you think you are retiring at your place of residence, and if lucky want it 
to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent direct lightning strike, 
then read on.

2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you 
specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first 
installed, filled with water is their most probable state.

This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as

a) Critter protection, and

b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull ropes 
are left in conduit,  a method of adding or replacing cables that avoids 
redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are significant 
long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough reason to use them. 
However...

3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing. Most 
cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant for 
indoor use.

Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly 
available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is nice, 
but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other 
permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any 
miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with 
ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO 
TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE knockoffs 
and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested by telco. Or 
for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on the retail market 
to recover costs.

High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use the 
commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at home 
improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet environments.

4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where 
waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing. Some 
manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and internal 
insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're just asking 
for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you will be # 10. 
Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and DXpedition dates, AND 
has a malevolent nature.

73, Guy K2AV


On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Dale Putnam 
> wrote:
I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit is 
open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY help dry 
the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average humidity at the 
underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air outside may not work out 
well either.



Have a great day,
--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

"Actions speak louder than words"
1856 - Abraham Lincoln



From: Topband 

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Chuck Dietz]

I love it!  Murphy should have a price on his head!

Chuck W5PR

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:13 AM Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:

> Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave
> waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit
> at one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is
> dry enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature,
> or run it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without
> pumping and or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions:
>
> 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost.
> If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably
> need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new
> rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to
> the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence,
> and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent
> direct lightning strike, then read on.
>
> 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless
> you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first
> installed, filled with water is their most probable state.
>
> This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as
>
> a) Critter protection, and
>
> b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull
> ropes are left in conduit,  a method of adding or replacing cables that
> avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are
> significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough
> reason to use them. However...
>
> 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing.
> Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant
> for indoor use.
>
> Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly
> available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is
> nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other
> permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any
> miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with
> ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO
> TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE
> knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested
> by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on
> the retail market to recover costs.
>
> High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use
> the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at
> home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet
> environments.
>
> 4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where
> waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing.
> Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and
> internal insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're
> just asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you
> will be # 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and
> DXpedition dates, AND has a malevolent nature.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Dale Putnam 
> wrote:
>
> > I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit
> > is open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY
> > help dry the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average
> > humidity at the underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air
> > outside may not work out well either.
> >
> >
> >
> > Have a great day,
> > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
> >
> > "Actions speak louder than words"
> > 1856 - Abraham Lincoln
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: Topband  on behalf of Ken
> Claerbout
> > 
> > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:19 AM
> > To: topband@contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question
> >
> > As you have found out, it's impossible to keep water out of a conduit
> like
> > that.  I use direct bury cabling and put it directly in the ground.
> > Granted the cable is flooded, but putting in back in the conduit ensures
> it
> > will sit in some water, something I would try to avoid.
> >
> > 73
> > Ken K4ZW
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John 
> > To: topband 
> > Sent: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 4:11 am
> > Subject: Topband: underground cables question
> >
> > Hi all, some  years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my
> > field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m
> > vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it
> in
> > the 

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Mike Waters]

John,

Although I didn't look up F1160 BEF, if it's basically flooded RG-6 (and
therefore suitable for direct burial) then Just Do It! ;-)

I use Commscope F6 dual- and quad-shield flooded coax at my QTH. It's the
electrical equivalent of RG-6 coax with aluminum shielding and a
copper-clad 18 AWG steel center conductor meant for CATV use. *It has the
same loss as RG-213 and is rated for continuous use at 1500 watts* (which I
have done for years) on 160m.

The copper cladding is thick enough so as not to have significant losses as
compared to solid copper. But you might want to measure the thickess with a
micrometer, by scraping off *only* enough copper to expose the steel.

That sticky flooding compound is hard to get off your skin; wear those
thin, disposable latex surgical gloves to keep it off your fingers while
you're installing the connectors.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 5, 2017 3:11 AM, "John"  wrote:

So my question is, I have a couple of large reels of Commscope F1160 BEF
flooded 75 ohm.
Do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some
water in or would you make alternative arrangements? I realise it a direct
bury coax but appreciate advice.
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RX/TX Antenna decoupling

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The answer to a lot of these either/or station wiring quandaries on
RX/TX/RX transitions is a slow-relay assert-TX signal. This is a signal
that would properly drive the frame relay RX/TX/RX in an un-QSK'd AL1200.
This is available in any WinKey or WinKey based device like MicroHam. In
contest setups this is the box that creates clean keying from ascii streams
on USB lines from contest logging computers, and accepts key and paddle
input. The TX-assert to key-down and TX release after key up delays are
programmable and can be set to exactly fit a station requirement.

Particularly on 160/80 where many stations never operate without a RX
antenna active on a port on their receiver, slow-relay assert-TX signal can
drive a frame relay to disconnect/connect BOTH leads of feedline at the
antenna with precisely set assert and release delays around actual RF power
on line.

We run the transceiver in its QSK mode. All we will lose is the benefit of
best possible RX signal **between dits** from the TX antenna. We will still
hear RX antenna signals from RX antennas, even if somewhat diminished by
the still-connected TX antenna. But we will still know if someone is
transmitting on top of us.

This also allows us to disconnect an RX antenna, like an SAL30, from it's
control/amp circuitry, when it's too close to the TX antenna. We can use
slow-relay assert-TX to switch to an omni RX antenna for QSK, optimally
located away from the TX antenna and safe to keep on our RX during TX.

Lastly but not leastly, the slow-relay assert-TX signal allows us to cut
down on the relay cycles on pain-to-replace and often noisy vacuum relays
in expensive big tube amps that we would rather send elsewhere for repair.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:44 AM, Rob Atkinson  wrote:

> I discovered my rx antennas worked much better if my tx antenna was
> completely disconnected from the station.  Most coaxial relays or T/R
> switches only break the center conductor.   That's not good enough.
> There has to be a complete disconnection which I provided by using an
> open frame relay mounted in a plastic box.  On 160 m. such a device
> will not present an impedance bump but this solution worked for me
> because I don't care about QSK.  This may not be necessary if the tx
> and rx antennas can be separated by one or more wavelengths.
>
> 73
>
> Rob
> K5UJ
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave
waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit
at one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is
dry enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature,
or run it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without
pumping and or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions:

1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost.
If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably
need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new
rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to
the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence,
and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent
direct lightning strike, then read on.

2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless
you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first
installed, filled with water is their most probable state.

This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as

a) Critter protection, and

b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull
ropes are left in conduit,  a method of adding or replacing cables that
avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are
significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough
reason to use them. However...

3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing.
Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant
for indoor use.

Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly
available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is
nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other
permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any
miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with
ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO
TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE
knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested
by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on
the retail market to recover costs.

High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use
the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at
home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet
environments.

4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where
waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing.
Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and
internal insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're
just asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you
will be # 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and
DXpedition dates, AND has a malevolent nature.

73, Guy K2AV


On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Dale Putnam  wrote:

> I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit
> is open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY
> help dry the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average
> humidity at the underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air
> outside may not work out well either.
>
>
>
> Have a great day,
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
> "Actions speak louder than words"
> 1856 - Abraham Lincoln
>
>
> 
> From: Topband  on behalf of Ken Claerbout
> 
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:19 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question
>
> As you have found out, it's impossible to keep water out of a conduit like
> that.  I use direct bury cabling and put it directly in the ground.
> Granted the cable is flooded, but putting in back in the conduit ensures it
> will sit in some water, something I would try to avoid.
>
> 73
> Ken K4ZW
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John 
> To: topband 
> Sent: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 4:11 am
> Subject: Topband: underground cables question
>
> Hi all, some  years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my
> field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m
> vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in
> the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8
> wave apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I
> noticed it dropped off and I suspected water ingress. An insulation test
> with 1000v from my electricians test equipment showed indeed a fall in
> insulation resistance.
>
> So my question is I have a 

Re: Topband: RX/TX Antenna decoupling, (OFF LIST)

[Rob Atkinson]

I discovered my rx antennas worked much better if my tx antenna was
completely disconnected from the station.  Most coaxial relays or T/R
switches only break the center conductor.   That's not good enough.
There has to be a complete disconnection which I provided by using an
open frame relay mounted in a plastic box.  On 160 m. such a device
will not present an impedance bump but this solution worked for me
because I don't care about QSK.  This may not be necessary if the tx
and rx antennas can be separated by one or more wavelengths.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Lloyd - N9LB]

I have PVC conduits under my yard because the cables to the towers travel
under landscaping and I am not able to dig things up to change or add
cables.  I have placed a length of half inch hose in each conduit with one
end at the lowest point in each conduit.  The other end of each hose comes
up to the surface along with the coax lines and control cables at the base
of each tower.   I use a "Wet/Dry" rated shop vacuum to pull the collected
water from the conduits via the hoses a couple times a year - and always
each fall before the ground freezes.  This technique has been working well
for me for 19 years.

73

Lloyd - N9LB


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 3:11 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: underground cables question

Hi all, some  years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my
field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m
vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in
the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 wave
apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I noticed
it dropped off and I suspected water ingress. An insulation test with 1000v
from my electricians test equipment showed indeed a fall in insulation
resistance.

So my question is I have a couple of large reels of commscope F1160 BEF
flooded 75 ohm do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has
allowed some water in or would you make alternative arrangements . I realise
it a direct bury coax but appreciate advice.

I wish to get the two verticals going again will use 1 X 3/4 line above
ground 1x5/4 line part in conduit and a 1/2 wave to switch in and out above
ground.

regards


John Beaumont
G4EIM


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: underground cables question

[Dale Putnam]

I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit is 
open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY help dry 
the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average humidity at the 
underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air outside may not work out 
well either.



Have a great day,
--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

"Actions speak louder than words"
1856 - Abraham Lincoln



From: Topband  on behalf of Ken Claerbout 

Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:19 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question

As you have found out, it's impossible to keep water out of a conduit like 
that.  I use direct bury cabling and put it directly in the ground.  Granted 
the cable is flooded, but putting in back in the conduit ensures it will sit in 
some water, something I would try to avoid.

73
Ken K4ZW


-Original Message-
From: John 
To: topband 
Sent: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 4:11 am
Subject: Topband: underground cables question

Hi all, some  years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my field 
, inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m vertical the 
feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in the conduit, it 
was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 wave apart. When first 
installed it worked very good but after a while I noticed it dropped off and I 
suspected water ingress. An insulation test with 1000v from my electricians 
test equipment showed indeed a fall in insulation resistance.

So my question is I have a couple of large reels of commscope F1160 BEF flooded 
75 ohm
do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some water in 
or would you make alternative arrangements . I realise it a direct bury coax 
but appreciate advice.

I wish to get the two verticals going again will use 1 X 3/4 line above ground 
1x5/4 line part in conduit and a 1/2 wave to switch in and out above ground.

regards


John Beaumont
G4EIM


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband