Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[john]

Another RX option that will likely fit on your property is a Pennant. I had
one at my Aruba home and while it was no match for those with Beverages it
was definitely better than listening on my TX vertical squeezed into the
same small lot. On top band, ZF is quiet compared to P4.

John KK9A - P40A


Topband: Waller Flag
Stan Stockton wa5rtg at gmail.com 
Sat Dec 15 14:15:25 EST 2018

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[James Wolf]

Stan,

Without crunching through the numbers, it seems obvious that you will have
to have a significant signal loss to overcome due to the low antenna gain at
the input of a  preamp.
With -79 dB of gain from a Waller Flag,  the input to your preamp will be
far below -174 dBm.   If it were even possible, the input noise to your
preamp would be less than  -185 dBm.

Jim - KR9U

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Stan
Stockton
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[John Harden, D.M.D.]

Without my Hi-Z 8 and the Waller Flag (on a 40 Ft boom at 95 ft) I would not 
hear squat on 160.
I listen in diversity receive with the K3 and use only the Hi-Z 8 with the 
IC-7610. However, the IC-7610 is EXTREMELY QUIET!! 

73,

John, W4NU
Atlanta
K4JAG 1959 to 1998

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 3:05 PM, Stan Stockton  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Rick.  I think you are fortunate to have a low noise level where
> you could actually use your TX Antenna.
> 
> My situation is that if I tried to listen on my transmit antenna I would
> only work the very strongest of signals.  Typically the noise moves the
> meter to about 20-25 over S9 if I listen on my vertical.  The best success
> I have had is with a Beverage, but whether on any given trip I can put one
> up largely depends on whether any of the four or five people's property I
> would cross are there and whether they would allow it or complain about
> it.  On my own property, the only thing I have done is put up a little
> triangle with the top at about 20 feet and the bottom wire in the
> neighborhood of 30-35 feet.  That antenna has about -37 dB of gain.  A 15
> dB preamp plus the preamp in the transceiver makes it an OK antenna - good
> enough that I have worked about 250 JA stations none of which would have
> been worked if I were listening on my vertical.  And I am guessing that if
> I had a 3 dB improvement in S/N ratio that I would have worked 400 in the
> same time period.  That antenna has an RDF of 7.7.  Always wanting
> something better and if I could put up something I could rotate with an RDF
> of 11 or so, I would hope to be content.
> 
> Stan
> 
> Stan
> 
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 1:47 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
>> General response, not specific to the Waller Flag:
>> 
>> For a number of good reasons, you should not expect
>> a NF below 3 dB for any practical preamp.  OTOH,
>> virtually all radios have an internal switchable preamp.
>> Let's say your radio is really pedestrian, and the
>> internal preamp has 10 dB NF.  Neglecting feedline
>> loss, your preamp gain only needs to be about 13 dB in
>> order to the preamp noise to dominate over the radio
>> noise.  Any additional gain above that will not help
>> you "start to hear band noise" but will instead hear
>> preamp noise.  Some ops like to use additional gain in
>> the preamp to make the AGC threshold occur at a lower
>> level.  This reduces listener fatigue, but does not
>> actually produce any newly-readable signals.
>> 
>> If the above isn't correct, can someone give a worked
>> example of where a 40 dB preamp would make sense?
>> 
>> FWIW, I tried a Waller loop last year in the 160 meter
>> contest.  It was quite large (I have plenty of space).
>> It seemed to be working OK in terms of being directional,
>> but it almost never improved the readability of any
>> signals vs the vertical.  IOW, aiming it at Japan didn't
>> help work JA's, except to the extent that it reduced
>> stateside QRM.  On a clear frequency, there was no advantage.
>> 
>> 73
>> Rick N6RK
>> 
>>> On 12/15/2018 11:15 AM, Stan Stockton wrote:
>>> I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
>>> smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
>>> preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.
>>> 
>>> At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
>>> but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
>>> about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
>>> foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.
>>> 
>>> I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me
>> will
>>> have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
>>> location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and
>> the
>>> gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
>>> preamp.
>>> 
>>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[n4is]

Stan

 

Yes, for each one db improvement on RDF you can expect 2 or more dB on signal 
to noise ratio.  One simple solution for you is to phase two or 4 delta flags, 
it will provide over 14 db RDF and only 50m long.

 

73’s

JC

N4IS

 

From: Stan Stockton  
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 3:28 PM
To: n...@n4is.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag

 

Thanks, JC.  Based on what you said and what I know about the location, I think 
I probably have enough noise that I shouldn't have to worry about how much gain 
the preamp might have relative to the negative gain of the smaller antenna.

 

My plan would be to install it horizontally at about 64 feet above a tribander. 
 If I can make it all work, it would be the greatest improvement to my little 
station that could possibly be made.  I have worked VU2 and some other good 
stuff with what I have tried in the past, but there is no question that I 
transmit a lot better than I receive on 160m.  

 

I see in the model I have that going to 750 feet high increases gain by about 
17 dB and RDF by about 3 as compared to where I can put it.

 

I would be very pleased to make a noticeable improvement over the little 
triangle antenna and have something that is on my tower that I could rotate.

 

73...Stan. 

 

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:04 PM mailto:n...@n4is.com> > wrote:

Hi Stan

There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or
vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5
wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum
at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain,
if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out
of the noise.

Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise
preamplifier  2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is
enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF.

I am working on a project using  two SDR receivers to phase the loops by
software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the
height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal  receiver signal
intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m
above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is necessary
30 to 40 m above ground, and it  shows no limitation on performance. Higher
is always better.

Check vertical  W8VVW  (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m)  original WF.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com> > On Behalf Of Stan Stockton
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com  
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a smaller
antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to
bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20 foot
boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable
Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Stan Stockton]

Thanks, JC.  Based on what you said and what I know about the location, I
think I probably have enough noise that I shouldn't have to worry about how
much gain the preamp might have relative to the negative gain of the
smaller antenna.

My plan would be to install it horizontally at about 64 feet above a
tribander.  If I can make it all work, it would be the greatest improvement
to my little station that could possibly be made.  I have worked VU2 and
some other good stuff with what I have tried in the past, but there is no
question that I transmit a lot better than I receive on 160m.

I see in the model I have that going to 750 feet high increases gain by
about 17 dB and RDF by about 3 as compared to where I can put it.

I would be very pleased to make a noticeable improvement over the little
triangle antenna and have something that is on my tower that I could rotate.

73...Stan.

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote:

> Hi Stan
>
> There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or
> vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5
> wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum
> at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain,
> if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out
> of the noise.
>
> Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise
> preamplifier  2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is
> enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF.
>
> I am working on a project using  two SDR receivers to phase the loops by
> software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the
> height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal  receiver signal
> intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m
> above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is
> necessary
> 30 to 40 m above ground, and it  shows no limitation on performance. Higher
> is always better.
>
> Check vertical  W8VVW  (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m)  original WF.
>
> Regards
> JC
> N4IS
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband  On Behalf Of Stan Stockton
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Waller Flag
>
> I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
> smaller
> antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to
> bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.
>
> At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
> but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
> about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
> foot
> boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.
>
> I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
> have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
> location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
> gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
> preamp.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable
> Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Stan Stockton]

Thanks, Rick.  I think you are fortunate to have a low noise level where
you could actually use your TX Antenna.

My situation is that if I tried to listen on my transmit antenna I would
only work the very strongest of signals.  Typically the noise moves the
meter to about 20-25 over S9 if I listen on my vertical.  The best success
I have had is with a Beverage, but whether on any given trip I can put one
up largely depends on whether any of the four or five people's property I
would cross are there and whether they would allow it or complain about
it.  On my own property, the only thing I have done is put up a little
triangle with the top at about 20 feet and the bottom wire in the
neighborhood of 30-35 feet.  That antenna has about -37 dB of gain.  A 15
dB preamp plus the preamp in the transceiver makes it an OK antenna - good
enough that I have worked about 250 JA stations none of which would have
been worked if I were listening on my vertical.  And I am guessing that if
I had a 3 dB improvement in S/N ratio that I would have worked 400 in the
same time period.  That antenna has an RDF of 7.7.  Always wanting
something better and if I could put up something I could rotate with an RDF
of 11 or so, I would hope to be content.

Stan

Stan

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 1:47 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:

> General response, not specific to the Waller Flag:
>
> For a number of good reasons, you should not expect
> a NF below 3 dB for any practical preamp.  OTOH,
> virtually all radios have an internal switchable preamp.
> Let's say your radio is really pedestrian, and the
> internal preamp has 10 dB NF.  Neglecting feedline
> loss, your preamp gain only needs to be about 13 dB in
> order to the preamp noise to dominate over the radio
> noise.  Any additional gain above that will not help
> you "start to hear band noise" but will instead hear
> preamp noise.  Some ops like to use additional gain in
> the preamp to make the AGC threshold occur at a lower
> level.  This reduces listener fatigue, but does not
> actually produce any newly-readable signals.
>
> If the above isn't correct, can someone give a worked
> example of where a 40 dB preamp would make sense?
>
> FWIW, I tried a Waller loop last year in the 160 meter
> contest.  It was quite large (I have plenty of space).
> It seemed to be working OK in terms of being directional,
> but it almost never improved the readability of any
> signals vs the vertical.  IOW, aiming it at Japan didn't
> help work JA's, except to the extent that it reduced
> stateside QRM.  On a clear frequency, there was no advantage.
>
> 73
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 12/15/2018 11:15 AM, Stan Stockton wrote:
> > I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
> > smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
> > preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.
> >
> > At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
> > but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
> > about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
> > foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.
> >
> > I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me
> will
> > have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
> > location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and
> the
> > gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
> > preamp.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> >
> >
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[n4is]

Hi Stan

There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or
vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5
wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum
at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain,
if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out
of the noise.

Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise
preamplifier  2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is
enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF.

I am working on a project using  two SDR receivers to phase the loops by
software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the
height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal  receiver signal
intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m
above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is necessary
30 to 40 m above ground, and it  shows no limitation on performance. Higher
is always better.

Check vertical  W8VVW  (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m)  original WF.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of Stan Stockton
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a smaller
antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to
bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20 foot
boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable
Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

General response, not specific to the Waller Flag:

For a number of good reasons, you should not expect
a NF below 3 dB for any practical preamp.  OTOH,
virtually all radios have an internal switchable preamp.
Let's say your radio is really pedestrian, and the
internal preamp has 10 dB NF.  Neglecting feedline
loss, your preamp gain only needs to be about 13 dB in
order to the preamp noise to dominate over the radio
noise.  Any additional gain above that will not help
you "start to hear band noise" but will instead hear
preamp noise.  Some ops like to use additional gain in
the preamp to make the AGC threshold occur at a lower
level.  This reduces listener fatigue, but does not
actually produce any newly-readable signals.

If the above isn't correct, can someone give a worked
example of where a 40 dB preamp would make sense?

FWIW, I tried a Waller loop last year in the 160 meter
contest.  It was quite large (I have plenty of space).
It seemed to be working OK in terms of being directional,
but it almost never improved the readability of any
signals vs the vertical.  IOW, aiming it at Japan didn't
help work JA's, except to the extent that it reduced
stateside QRM.  On a clear frequency, there was no advantage.

73
Rick N6RK

On 12/15/2018 11:15 AM, Stan Stockton wrote:

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector



_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Waller Flag

[Stan Stockton]

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector