Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[m.r.c.]

DXpediton style

take 3-4 feet of bare solid # 10 # 12 copper wire and make a loop around the 
base of the antenna support- make it larger if necessary, wrap and solder the 
ends of the loop


Wrap a couple turns from each radial around the loop wire.  Solder.  The joints 
are far enough apart to make soldering reasonably easy even with MANY radials.


If you must use a dis similar metal, use the same technique and split bolt wire 
clamps, feed two at a time through each split bolt


Run as heavy a wire as you think necessary from the ground ring to the feedline 
shield, transformer return, whatever goes to ground.


Robin
WA6CDR
VP6DX, etc


- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Brown" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2022 10:13
Subject: Re: Topband: How good is good enough



On 11/12/2022 10:02 AM, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote:
I'd be interested to know how you make the joints, then add joints to joints, 
then...doesn't it get a bit lumpy?  Do you solder or crimp or nuts and bolts, 
joints in three at a time...?


I've done it two ways. There's a DX Eng radial plate at the base of my Tee 
vertical connecting a very large number of on-ground radials. For a couple of 
verticals sloping off my 120 ft tower, fed at their base and using the tower 
as a passive reflector, I use copper split-bolt connectors to connect four 
elevated radials for each sloper. I also use split-bolts to connect on-ground 
radials for the tower (it needs a good radial system because it's a passive 
reflector).


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Lee STRAHAN]

And don't forget to discharge the element to ground before connecting to your 
measuring device. Static is NOT your friend in this case.
Lee  K7TJR

-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of Rob 
Atkinson
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2022 3:50 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: How good is good enough

>Just cut 20 more 70' radials.  Time to go play in the yard.

If that were all I could add, I'd switch them to 40 35' radials.

The R component of my inverted L on around 1840 is 11 ohms.  X is around 20.  
That's with 101 radials.  I look for a R of at least 15 ohms where X is minimal 
on an analyzer sweep.  At that point the ground system is getting good.  The 
vertical part of the L should be
at least 50 feet.Just ground the analyzer and put the vertical
element right into it.

73
Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Rob Atkinson]

>Just cut 20 more 70' radials.  Time to go play in the yard.

If that were all I could add, I'd switch them to 40 35' radials.

The R component of my inverted L on around 1840 is 11 ohms.  X is
around 20.  That's with 101 radials.  I look for a R of at least 15
ohms where X is minimal on an analyzer sweep.  At that point the
ground system is getting good.  The vertical part of the L should be
at least 50 feet.Just ground the analyzer and put the vertical
element right into it.

73
Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: Dipole/remote tuner

[n4is]

Jake

One very  simple solution is a double inverted V. I built and used this
antenna for several years. The SWR can be 1:1.5 or lower from 3.5 to 3.8
MHz. The basic principal is a double dipole spaced 4 to 6 ft, very fat. The
impedance at the enter is 300 ohms, however if you make it an inverted "V",
the feed impedance is 200 ohms. The tower can be at the center with two
support 2 to 3 ft each side. This configuration makes easy to hung a large
4:1 BALUN on the feed point. I recommend the BALUN with material #2  T300B
or T400B with Teflon isolated wire, T200 is too small. Adjust the antenna to
min SWR around 3.65 MHz. With a good BALUN the SWR would be very low, 1:1,05
is very achievable. I like a good quality RG-213. To keep the wires moving
with the wind I used two 1/2 white PVC tune and a 3/4 at the end, on each
side. You may not need a tuner at all.

73
JC 
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of
jcjacobsen via Topband
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2022 11:08 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Dipole/remote tuner

Looking for input from the collective knowledge of the reflector.


You have a wire dipole for 75 meters fed with a 1:1/5K rated balun. You want
to transition to a remote tuner so you can move around 75/80 meters. 


The question is: Do you leave the balun in place, or remove it and feed the
dipole directly from the remote tuner? We have mixed answers from the local
"Population". That's why I'm coming to the reflector.


Please, don't be critical and ask questions like: what gauge wire, bare of
covered wire, How high, yada yada yada, 


That's all. Thanks in advance.


73  K9WN  Jake
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Jim Brown]

On 11/7/2022 1:27 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
Is it worth laying down more radials, or am I approaching diminishing 
returns?


It depends a lot on the nature of your soil, and how much a dB or two is 
worth to you. These slides for a talk I've done at Pacificon, Visalia, 
and for several ham clubs is mostly about 160M radial systems. Nothing 
in it is original to me, but rather summarizing a lot of wisdom from 
others.


http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Jim Brown]

On 11/12/2022 10:02 AM, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote:

I'd be interested to know how you make the joints, then add joints to joints, 
then...doesn't it get a bit lumpy?  Do you solder or crimp or nuts and bolts, 
joints in three at a time...?


I've done it two ways. There's a DX Eng radial plate at the base of my 
Tee vertical connecting a very large number of on-ground radials. For a 
couple of verticals sloping off my 120 ft tower, fed at their base and 
using the tower as a passive reflector, I use copper split-bolt 
connectors to connect four elevated radials for each sloper. I also use 
split-bolts to connect on-ground radials for the tower (it needs a good 
radial system because it's a passive reflector).


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Dipole/remote tuner

[Jim Brown]

On 11/12/2022 8:08 AM, jcjacobsen via Topband wrote:
You have a wire dipole for 75 meters fed with a 1:1/5K rated balun. 


Commercial "baluns" are next to useless. I use one of these on all of my 
six dipoles.


http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf

There are several very good ways to match an 80/75 dipole over 3500-3900 
kHz, so that an in-shack tuner can easily match it. The one I recommend 
is described in this applications note about using SimSmith to design 
matching networks. It's really simple, involving nothing more than 
adding a length of different coax to the feedline. It's a very old 
technique -- W6NL, who taught at Stanford, is credited with it by local 
hams, but he said it's MUCH older than he is. :)


http://k9yc.com/PacificonSmithChart.pdf

73, Jim K9YC




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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[CUTTER DAVID via Topband]

I'd be interested to know how you make the joints, then add joints to joints, 
then...doesn't it get a bit lumpy?  Do you solder or crimp or nuts and bolts, 
joints in three at a time...?

David G3UNA


> On 12/11/2022 16:41 Grant Saviers  wrote:
> 
>  
> The 34 ohms is the sum of Rr (antenna radiation Z over perfect ground) 
> and Rg (ground R loss).  Rr depends on the dimensions of the L plus a 
> bit of wire loss.  My guess is Rr is about 10 ohms less than 34 ohms, 
> some easy modeling will determine it.
> 
> Then it is a question of what antenna efficiency you want vs cost and 
> time for more radials.  If 10 ohms is Rg, then about 1/3 of the TX power 
> is warming the worms.
> 
> Grant KZ1W
> 
> On 11/12/2022 07:31, ws6x@gmail.com wrote:
> > In my experience here in "ROCK"ingham County, I didn't reach the point of 
> > diminishing returns until around 32 radials of varying lengths (Most were 
> > either 50 or 100' long.). Much would depend on length, configuration, 
> > terrain and ground conductivity.
> > Jim - WS6X
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Topband  On Behalf 
> > Of Pete Smith N4ZR
> > Sent: Monday, November 7, 2022 4:27 PM
> > To: topband reflector 
> > Subject: Topband: How good is good enough
> > 
> > Now that the lawn mowing is done for the season, I resuscitated my 160M 
> > inverted L.  With 13 on the ground radials, each roughly 70 feet long, 
> > measured R of 34 ohms seems OK to me.  Is it worth laying down more 
> > radials, or am I approaching diminishing returns?
> > --
> > 73, Pete N4ZR
> > 
> > 
> > _
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

Just cut 20 more 70' radials.  Time to go play in the yard.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 11/12/2022 11:41 AM, Grant Saviers wrote:
The 34 ohms is the sum of Rr (antenna radiation Z over perfect ground) 
and Rg (ground R loss).  Rr depends on the dimensions of the L plus a 
bit of wire loss.  My guess is Rr is about 10 ohms less than 34 ohms, 
some easy modeling will determine it.


Then it is a question of what antenna efficiency you want vs cost and 
time for more radials.  If 10 ohms is Rg, then about 1/3 of the TX 
power is warming the worms.


Grant KZ1W

On 11/12/2022 07:31, ws6x@gmail.com wrote:
In my experience here in "ROCK"ingham County, I didn't reach the 
point of diminishing returns until around 32 radials of varying 
lengths (Most were either 50 or 100' long.). Much would depend on 
length, configuration, terrain and ground conductivity.

Jim - WS6X

-Original Message-
From: Topband  On 
Behalf Of Pete Smith N4ZR

Sent: Monday, November 7, 2022 4:27 PM
To: topband reflector 
Subject: Topband: How good is good enough

Now that the lawn mowing is done for the season, I resuscitated my 
160M inverted L.  With 13 on the ground radials, each roughly 70 feet 
long, measured R of 34 ohms seems OK to me.  Is it worth laying down 
more radials, or am I approaching diminishing returns?

--
73, Pete N4ZR


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Re: Topband: QRM Eliminator

[Rich Dailey]

A lil late to the bar regarding this thread, but my first phasing type rotten 
qrn reducer was an iteration of W1FB's 'QRN Squasher'
that he wrote about around 1996. In 1997 I also bought (and use to this day) 
the mfj-1025. Both devices have worked great for me
on 160/80/40m, with an edge toward the mfj when using two beverages.

https://www.google.com/search?q=w1fb+qrn+squasher

de N8UX


- Original Message -
From: "Pete Smith N4ZR" 
To: "topband" 
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2022 10:23:27 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: QRM Eliminator

Funny (I guess) - we have Chinese manufacturers cloning a Russian design.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 10/9/2022 12:35 PM, K4SAV wrote:
> This link shows a schematic of this thing. (Assuming it's the same as 
> the packaged version.)
> https://tinyurl.com/3pkvzdft
>
> Jerry, K4SAV
>
> On 10/9/2022 10:59 AM, Tree wrote:
>> Looks like there is a low cost version of the ANC-4 and MFJ-1026 type of
>> noise eliminator available on Amazon of all places.
>>
>> Search for QRM Eliminator.  Cost is around $60.
>>
>> These are useful if you have a single point noise source.   I do not 
>> have
>> one of these units but was "reading the mail" on someone talking 
>> about it
>> on 40M SSB and they seemed to think it worked well.
>>
>> And he had a good point - if you don't like it - you can send it back 
>> for a
>> full refund!
>>
>> Tree N6TR
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>> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Grant Saviers]

The 34 ohms is the sum of Rr (antenna radiation Z over perfect ground) 
and Rg (ground R loss).  Rr depends on the dimensions of the L plus a 
bit of wire loss.  My guess is Rr is about 10 ohms less than 34 ohms, 
some easy modeling will determine it.


Then it is a question of what antenna efficiency you want vs cost and 
time for more radials.  If 10 ohms is Rg, then about 1/3 of the TX power 
is warming the worms.


Grant KZ1W

On 11/12/2022 07:31, ws6x@gmail.com wrote:

In my experience here in "ROCK"ingham County, I didn't reach the point of 
diminishing returns until around 32 radials of varying lengths (Most were either 50 or 
100' long.). Much would depend on length, configuration, terrain and ground conductivity.
Jim - WS6X

-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
Pete Smith N4ZR
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2022 4:27 PM
To: topband reflector 
Subject: Topband: How good is good enough

Now that the lawn mowing is done for the season, I resuscitated my 160M 
inverted L.  With 13 on the ground radials, each roughly 70 feet long, measured 
R of 34 ohms seems OK to me.  Is it worth laying down more radials, or am I 
approaching diminishing returns?
--
73, Pete N4ZR


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Re: Topband: Dipole/remote tuner

[jcjacobsen via Topband]

Looking for input from the collective knowledge of the reflector.


You have a wire dipole for 75 meters fed with a 1:1/5K rated balun. You want to 
transition to a remote tuner so you can move around 75/80 meters. 


The question is: Do you leave the balun in place, or remove it and feed the 
dipole directly from the remote tuner? We have mixed answers from the local 
"Population". That's why I'm coming to the reflector.


Please, don't be critical and ask questions like: what gauge wire, bare of 
covered wire, How high, yada yada yada, 


That's all. Thanks in advance.


73  K9WN  Jake
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[Frank W3LPL]

Hi Pete,

Buy all means install more radials.
At 70 foot radial length diminishing returns is at about 30 radials

73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -
From: "Pete N4ZR N4ZR" 
To: "topband" 
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2022 9:27:09 PM
Subject: Topband: How good is good enough

Now that the lawn mowing is done for the season, I resuscitated my 160M 
inverted L.  With 13 on the ground radials, each roughly 70 feet long, 
measured R of 34 ohms seems OK to me.  Is it worth laying down more 
radials, or am I approaching diminishing returns?

-- 
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
_
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Re: Topband: How good is good enough

[ws6x.ars]

In my experience here in "ROCK"ingham County, I didn't reach the point of 
diminishing returns until around 32 radials of varying lengths (Most were 
either 50 or 100' long.). Much would depend on length, configuration, terrain 
and ground conductivity.
Jim - WS6X  

-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
Pete Smith N4ZR
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2022 4:27 PM
To: topband reflector 
Subject: Topband: How good is good enough

Now that the lawn mowing is done for the season, I resuscitated my 160M 
inverted L.  With 13 on the ground radials, each roughly 70 feet long, measured 
R of 34 ohms seems OK to me.  Is it worth laying down more radials, or am I 
approaching diminishing returns?
--
73, Pete N4ZR


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Topband: How good is good enough

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

Now that the lawn mowing is done for the season, I resuscitated my 160M 
inverted L.  With 13 on the ground radials, each roughly 70 feet long, 
measured R of 34 ohms seems OK to me.  Is it worth laying down more 
radials, or am I approaching diminishing returns?


--
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
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