Topband: Wednesday 160m CW Activity Night

[Roger Kennedy]

Just another reminder . . .

Perhaps DX propagation will be better tomorrow night than in the Stew Perry
at the weekend. We can only hope !

Anyway, hope to see some of you on the band.

73 Roger G3YRO


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Re: Topband: Kites?

[Marshall Toburen]

We used to put up an 80m Delta loop with an advertising-sized dirigible
filled with helium.  You need a dirigible with back fins so it pivots in
the wind and keeps the antenna vertical.  Took almost a full cylinder of
helium to fill the dirigible.  We had a dentist in the club that had access
to the helium.

73, Marshall AA0FO

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 6:03 PM Roger Kennedy 
wrote:

>
> Back in the 1970s when I lived on the South Coast, a local to me - G3RCE -
> used to regularly
> put up a Half Wave vertical on 160m suspended by a Hydrogen-filled Weather
> balloon.
>
> However, unlike a Kite which needs decent wind to stay aloft, with a
> Balloon
> you want NO wind !
>
> As suggested, he found it worked much better than a Quarter wave vertical,
> not just due to earth losses, but I guess the radiating part was much
> higher. He used aluminium wire, and running about 600 watts output. The
> vertical was tethered about 5 feet off the ground, with a horizontal wire
> about 50ft long running to the upstairs window of his shack, where he had a
> parallel-tuned ATU with a link winding to the Tx.
>
> Incidentally, although in recent years I have used Dipoles, at several QTHs
> over the years I have used an end-fed half wave on 160m, with no issues -
> this was normally where the shack was on the third floor, so I didn't have
> to bring the feed-point down towards ground.
>
> Roger G3YRO
>
>
> _
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> Reflector
>
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Topband: Kites?

[Roger Kennedy]

Back in the 1970s when I lived on the South Coast, a local to me - G3RCE -
used to regularly
put up a Half Wave vertical on 160m suspended by a Hydrogen-filled Weather
balloon.

However, unlike a Kite which needs decent wind to stay aloft, with a Balloon
you want NO wind !

As suggested, he found it worked much better than a Quarter wave vertical,
not just due to earth losses, but I guess the radiating part was much
higher. He used aluminium wire, and running about 600 watts output. The
vertical was tethered about 5 feet off the ground, with a horizontal wire
about 50ft long running to the upstairs window of his shack, where he had a
parallel-tuned ATU with a link winding to the Tx. 

Incidentally, although in recent years I have used Dipoles, at several QTHs
over the years I have used an end-fed half wave on 160m, with no issues -
this was normally where the shack was on the third floor, so I didn't have
to bring the feed-point down towards ground.

Roger G3YRO


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Re: Topband: Radials, EZNEC and far field

[n0tt1]

>Having walked around on the beach with a battery K2 listening to
incoming
signals on a short antenna, walking 50 feet from the water drops signals
multiple S units."

Perhaps the handheld radio has a better ground connection, capacity
coupled
or not, through you and into the salt water + sand at the beach.  Then,
walking away from the beach
that connection is greatly diminished.

73,
Charlie, N0TT

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 08:58:23 -0500 Guy Olinger K2AV 
writes:
> Having walked around on the beach with a battery K2 listening to 
> incoming
> signals on a short antenna, walking 50 feet from the water drops 
> signals
> multiple S units. Over the beach there is an absorption zone 
> starting at
> the sand at water�s edge which goes higher and higher the farther 
> from the
> water. This isn�t EZNEC, just observation on Core Banks, NC during 
> a number
> of IOTA contests. Very easy with all those signals to hear what was 
> going
> on.
> 
> On 40m there was a big difference between a doublet at 40� and 
> 50�, back
> from the beach about 200�.
> 
> Apparently sand wetted with salt water is quite lossy.
> 
> But even not optimal at the beach smacks the snot out inland 
> locations.
> Which IMHO explains the wide variety of beach-based reports.
> 
> Also a very short vertical radiator away from water�s edge will 
> not hear as
> much as a tall one as the tall wire has more intercept outside the
> absorption zone next to the sand.
> 
> It�s really quite a complex subject.
> 
> 73, Guy K2AV
> 
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 7:28 AM  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Frank
> >
> > You wrote " .  A vertical over a salt marsh or within about a 
> wavelength of
> > salt water will produce
> > 6 dB or more of gain at low angles compared to a vertical with 
> poorly
> > conducting soil in its reflection zone
> > "
> >
> > The assumption that "next to the water" is the same as "in the 
> water" , is
> > a
> > not right.  It is not the same !
> >
> > I listen to George signal with vertical "in the water " and the 10 
> db
> > difference in signal is real.  Moving the antenna on the beach and 
> you lose
> > 10 db or even more on practice, not on paper.
> >
> > I see that on my S  meter more than a dozen times.
> >
> > George has a vertical on his house in Miami, the ground plane is 
> just a
> > plate down the water. The vertical is made with fiberglass pole 
> 18m high.
> > My
> > antenna is a full size vertical with a good radial system over the
> > Everglade
> > land, if I dig 2 Ft I have water from the Everglade underground 
> river.
> >
> > George can run a pile up from Europe with 10W, I can keep up with 
> him
> > running legal limit power. We are talking about 160m only.
> >
> > 73's
> > JC
> > N4IS
> >
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> -- 
> Sent via Gmail Mobile on my iPhone
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> Reflector
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Re: Topband: Kites?

[Mike Waters]

Another con about kites is that they need atmospheric lift to stay up. My
first field day in the late 1970's, Tom W8JI was working Hungary on a
kite-supported antenna from near Toledo, until nighttime wind conditions
brought the kite down.

What's been said about windy days and WX balloons also applies to kites.

Forget the kite and throw a 1/4 wavelength wire over a tall tree, and feed
it against two 10' high radials. Vertical portion *at least* 25' high *and
preferably higher*. I know from experience that it's a killer 160m TX
antenna.

73 Mike
W0BTU
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Re: Topband: Kites?

[Cecil acuff]

Our club used to run a 1/4 wave under a weather balloon. Over a radial field.  
Worked great. But a PIA to put up…and if any wind a real problem.

Fun though!

Cecil K5DL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Cecil acuff  wrote:
> 
> Keep in mind…FAA requires anything over 200’ be registered with them and 
> have obstruction lighting. If near an airport that elevation may be much 
> lower or even not allowed. 1/2 wave on 160m…260’+.
> 
> Cecil K5DL
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 20, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Chris Maness  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I am wondering what type of kite would produce the most consistent
>> result for a 1/2 wave vertical.  I am thinking 1/2 lamda so that I
>> don't have to fuss with a radial field.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Thanks,
>> Chris Maness
>> _
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Re: Topband: Kites?

[Joe]

Good Luck meeting these requirements!


   § 101.15 Notice requirements.
   

No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150 
feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before 
beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA 
ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:


(a) The names and addresses of the owners and operators.

(b) The size of the balloon or the size and weight of the kite.

(c) The location of the operation.

(d) The height above the surface of the earth at which the balloon or 
kite is to be operated.


(e) The date, time, and duration of the operation.


   § 101.17 Lighting and marking requirements.
   

(a) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite, between sunset and 
sunrise unless the balloon or kite, and its mooring lines, are lighted 
so as to give a visual warning equal to that required for obstructions 
to air navigation in the FAA publication “Obstruction Marking and 
Lighting”.


(b) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and 
sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers 
attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above 
the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile.


On 12/20/2022 2:36 PM, Boye Christensen via Topband wrote:

Hi

Keep in mind a 1/2 wave vertical feeding inpedance 1-3 Kohm this means 
high voltage ?


ON4UN tried on his isolated tover for 164m 40m high to do so on 80 m, 
and only worked on low power ?


Ended up with 4 1/4 wave slopers on the top 80m  the best vertical 
will be a 3/8 wave concerning feeding impedance



73 Boye

On 20-12-2022 21:23, Cecil acuff wrote:
Keep in mind…FAA requires anything over 200’ be registered with them 
and have obstruction lighting. If near an airport that elevation may 
be much lower or even not allowed. 1/2 wave on 160m…260’+.


Cecil K5DL

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 20, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Chris Maness 
 wrote:


I am wondering what type of kite would produce the most consistent
result for a 1/2 wave vertical.  I am thinking 1/2 lamda so that I
don't have to fuss with a radial field.

--
Thanks,
Chris Maness
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Reflector

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Re: Topband: Kites?

[Boye Christensen via Topband]

Hi

Keep in mind a 1/2 wave vertical feeding inpedance 1-3 Kohm this means 
high voltage ?


ON4UN tried on his isolated tover for 164m 40m high to do so on 80 m, 
and only worked on low power ?


Ended up with 4 1/4 wave slopers on the top 80m  the best vertical will 
be a 3/8 wave concerning feeding impedance



73 Boye

On 20-12-2022 21:23, Cecil acuff wrote:

Keep in mind…FAA requires anything over 200’ be registered with them and have 
obstruction lighting. If near an airport that elevation may be much lower or 
even not allowed. 1/2 wave on 160m…260’+.

Cecil K5DL

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 20, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Chris Maness  wrote:

I am wondering what type of kite would produce the most consistent
result for a 1/2 wave vertical.  I am thinking 1/2 lamda so that I
don't have to fuss with a radial field.

--
Thanks,
Chris Maness
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Re: Topband: Kites?

[Cecil acuff]

Keep in mind…FAA requires anything over 200’ be registered with them and have 
obstruction lighting. If near an airport that elevation may be much lower or 
even not allowed. 1/2 wave on 160m…260’+.

Cecil K5DL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 20, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Chris Maness  
> wrote:
> 
> I am wondering what type of kite would produce the most consistent
> result for a 1/2 wave vertical.  I am thinking 1/2 lamda so that I
> don't have to fuss with a radial field.
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> Chris Maness
> _
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Re: Topband: Radials, EZNEC and far field

[Jim Brown]

On 12/20/2022 4:25 AM, n...@comcast.net wrote:

The assumption that "next to the water" is the same as "in the water" , is a
not right.  It is not the same !


In this discussion, it's important to realize  that the earth, salt 
water, and radials, serve two functions. Soil in all its forms is a big 
resistor. Radials serve to carry return current for the antenna IN PLACE 
OF LOSSY EARTH (caps added for emphasis). Think of that loss as a 
resistor in series with the antenna, forming a voltage divider with the 
radiation resistance, where loss is the voltage divider ratil. They also 
serve to SHIELD (screen) the field produced by the antenna from the 
lossy earth. Salt water, being an excellent conductor, serves as a very 
low loss return for antenna current, and needs no such screen. All of 
this matters ONLY very close to the antenna, and it only applies to 
vertically polarized antennas.


The second contribution of the earth (including salt water) is in the 
far field, where it produces the reflection from the antenna that forms 
the vertical pattern. The strength of that contribution is directly 
related to the earth's conductivity, which is why salt water is so much 
better than soil. A vertical with its base very close to the water 
produces a very strong and very narrow low angle lobe; if the antenna is 
raised, very strong and very narrow lobes are produced.


The contributions of radials and a counterpoise to ground loss is 
addressed in these slides for a talk I did at Visalia and Pacificon 
about ten years ago. http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf


I published a modeling study of this about ten years ago. It was written 
for NCJ, but ARRL's graphics department complained about the number of 
graphs (which are crucial to understand it). It's here.


http://k9yc.com/AntennaPlanning.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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Topband: Kites?

[Chris Maness]

I am wondering what type of kite would produce the most consistent
result for a 1/2 wave vertical.  I am thinking 1/2 lamda so that I
don't have to fuss with a radial field.

-- 
Thanks,
Chris Maness
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Topband: VK9DX 160m in DL

[Andree DL8LAS via Topband]

I had a nice QSO on 160m with VK9DX Norfolk this evening. ATNO on topband.He 
had a good signal.Here a short clip.
73 Andy DL8LAS 
https://youtu.be/SKYCNAH2ciw
www.dl8las.com

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Topband: CQWW160 CW 2023 - MJ5E

[Bob via Topband]

MJ5E will be operating from GJ - Jersey in the CQWW160 CW Contest. QSL via 
LOTW, Direct and Buro. It will be a field day style operation and looking 
forward to getting Jersey on the air for the contest. Sea travel is booked now 
and updates on QRZ.com.
 
 
73 Bob
GU4YOX (MJ5E)
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Re: Topband: Topband Antennas and saltwater

[W3HKK]

Thanks for a very enjoyable thread with multiple real-world examples
of the remarkable benefits of proximity to salt water. Sounds like
great fun. 

My own less-interesting case does not involve salt water, but does
involve my 52 ft vertical leg 1/4 wave radial INV-L out in the
backyard here in central Ohio. Midwest soil is generally considered of
average conductivity, and my site slopes about 15 degrees downwards
facing East and South, and about 15 degrees upwards facing West.

In 2009, When I erected my first 160m L, it was soley supported by a
15 ft tree ( the only one I had on my 3 acres of former farmland) fed
against an 8 ft ground rod. That was it. 15 ft high at the apex! The
far end sloped down to ground level, maybe 3-4 ft above the grass in a
SE direction. 

 I happily made many qsos around the US and began working the 160m
contests. Then one night I heard a 569 4X station calling CQ DX. On my
first call he replied and gave me a similar report. I was running
100w. Nearly fell off my chair. A few days later at my SR I heard a
weak JA calling CQ DX. He replied to my call with a 559. I had
suddenly worked the furthest dx I had ever worked on TB with a 15 ft
high INV-L and zero radials! 

Over the years I added 26 radials of between 35 (PL issues north) and
130 ft and my DX has improved to 185/165. I stopped adding radials
when I noticed the swr no longer increased, figuring I had reached the
optimum point for my soil cndx.

In summer, my radials are coiled up and hung from the walnut tree
during mowing season. Two years ago I failed to lay them out before
winter. The swr was rather different which I adjusted with a coke
bottle inductor at the base, and continued to operate with great
success, into VK/JA/EU/AF/SA. 

My point being that with decent soil conditions and very moist soil,
having no radials hasnt been a major deterrent to TB operating, altho
Im sure Id do better with them. How much better, I have no idea. 

So, at least for many Midwest stations, INV-L antennas can work well
even with a simple single ground rod. I found that stunning. So there
is hope for many landlocked TB operators.

PS Ive planted more trees and shrubs over the years, and noticed that
about 25% of them died. When the nursery dug them out, their roots
were waterlogged and the hole filled with water. Hence Im guessing the
tendency of a lot of ground water flowing down hill through the
shallow topsoil beneath my radial field, concentrated by layers of
clay beneath them, might be a factor working to my benefit. The
surface ground doesnt dry out until mid summer for hundreds of feet in
all directions.

-From:
topband-requ...@contesting.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday December 20 2022 12:38:07AM
Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 240, Issue 18

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 Today's Topics:

 1. Re: Antennas and saltwater (jh-...@sbcglobal.net)

 --

 Message: 1
 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 05:28:21 + (UTC)
 From: "jh-...@sbcglobal.net" 
 To: W7TMT - Patrick , "k...@kq2m.com"

 Cc: GEORGE WALLNER , Radio KH6O
 , "topband@contesting.com"

 Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
 Message-ID: 
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 I am an avid /M op, including on 160, quite active on 30M and higher
WARC bands.? I lived in Monterey, CA for around 10 years and visited
monthly for several more after that.? One of the greatest attractions
of the beautiful Monterey area was the Monterey Commercial Pier...a
long, elevated pier with buildings and fishing boat dock improvements,
along with a wonderful view.??
 None of the touristy advertisements for the "Fishermen's Wharf"
attractions mentioned that the elevation pattern of a "loaded" mobile
hamstick vertical antenna mounted high up on a metal van hatchback lid
18 feet over 20' deep salt water with downsloping, sandy bottom
leading to near-field abyssopelagic depths would produce peak gain at
18 degrees or less elevation.? The coveted "Brewster angle." As Frank,
W3LPL, observed in this thread:? "Radials cover a very small fraction
of the very large reflection zone (Fresnel zone) that produces low
angle radiation.? A vertical over a salt marsh or within about a
wavelength of salt water will produce 6 dB or more of gain at low
angles compared to a vertical with poorly conducting soil in its
reflection zone."
 On that wharf, I worked maybe 100 rare countries on 40, 30, 20, and
WARC bands competing with landlocked, 

Re: Topband: Radials, EZNEC and far field

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Having walked around on the beach with a battery K2 listening to incoming
signals on a short antenna, walking 50 feet from the water drops signals
multiple S units. Over the beach there is an absorption zone starting at
the sand at water’s edge which goes higher and higher the farther from the
water. This isn’t EZNEC, just observation on Core Banks, NC during a number
of IOTA contests. Very easy with all those signals to hear what was going
on.

On 40m there was a big difference between a doublet at 40’ and 50’, back
from the beach about 200’.

Apparently sand wetted with salt water is quite lossy.

But even not optimal at the beach smacks the snot out inland locations.
Which IMHO explains the wide variety of beach-based reports.

Also a very short vertical radiator away from water’s edge will not hear as
much as a tall one as the tall wire has more intercept outside the
absorption zone next to the sand.

It’s really quite a complex subject.

73, Guy K2AV

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 7:28 AM  wrote:

> Hi Frank
>
> You wrote " .  A vertical over a salt marsh or within about a wavelength of
> salt water will produce
> 6 dB or more of gain at low angles compared to a vertical with poorly
> conducting soil in its reflection zone
> "
>
> The assumption that "next to the water" is the same as "in the water" , is
> a
> not right.  It is not the same !
>
> I listen to George signal with vertical "in the water " and the 10 db
> difference in signal is real.  Moving the antenna on the beach and you lose
> 10 db or even more on practice, not on paper.
>
> I see that on my S  meter more than a dozen times.
>
> George has a vertical on his house in Miami, the ground plane is just a
> plate down the water. The vertical is made with fiberglass pole 18m high.
> My
> antenna is a full size vertical with a good radial system over the
> Everglade
> land, if I dig 2 Ft I have water from the Everglade underground river.
>
> George can run a pile up from Europe with 10W, I can keep up with him
> running legal limit power. We are talking about 160m only.
>
> 73's
> JC
> N4IS
>
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> Reflector
>
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Topband: Vertical over salt water

[Mike Smith VE9AA]

The current thread reminded me a lot of this one
Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach" (contesting.com)
http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/2014-08/msg00048.html


I salivate every time I read such stories.  I live on a nice Ridge, but
nowhere even remotely close to salt water.  The land here is undulating and
very rocky. Almost no soil.

I can tell you that for sure on 40m a vertical (w/ 2 gullwing radials
parallel to the water) some 10-15' from the salt water works gangbusters.
I only wish that I had a comparison antenna to give you a number.  I am sure
K5GO will do that comparison for you all some day.


For sure the ZF9CW/ZF5T QTH is magical.  Not only on 160m, but all the other
bands as well.

I had blast there in October for a week.

73 Mike VE9AA (ZF2AA for a moment in time)

Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB


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Re: Topband: Radials, EZNEC and far field

[Frank W3LPL]

Hi JC,

I didn't think it would be productive to cover in-the-salt-water
antennas in my reply to a specific question about how to improve
the performance of an antenna hundreds of miles from the ocean...

But if you can build your permanent antenna in salt water in
Atlanta, it definitely would perform great  :)

Maybe in a few million years it will be possible

73
Frank
W3LPL




- Original Message -
From: "JC" 
To: "Frank W3LPL" , "topband" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2022 12:25:35 PM
Subject: RE: Topband: Radials, EZNEC and far field

Hi Frank

You wrote " .  A vertical over a salt marsh or within about a wavelength of
salt water will produce
6 dB or more of gain at low angles compared to a vertical with poorly
conducting soil in its reflection zone 
"

The assumption that "next to the water" is the same as "in the water" , is a
not right.  It is not the same ! 

I listen to George signal with vertical "in the water " and the 10 db
difference in signal is real.  Moving the antenna on the beach and you lose
10 db or even more on practice, not on paper.

I see that on my S  meter more than a dozen times.

George has a vertical on his house in Miami, the ground plane is just a
plate down the water. The vertical is made with fiberglass pole 18m high. My
antenna is a full size vertical with a good radial system over the Everglade
land, if I dig 2 Ft I have water from the Everglade underground river. 

George can run a pile up from Europe with 10W, I can keep up with him
running legal limit power. We are talking about 160m only.

73's
JC
N4IS
_
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Re: Topband: Radials, EZNEC and far field

[n4is]

Hi Frank

You wrote " .  A vertical over a salt marsh or within about a wavelength of
salt water will produce
6 dB or more of gain at low angles compared to a vertical with poorly
conducting soil in its reflection zone 
"

The assumption that "next to the water" is the same as "in the water" , is a
not right.  It is not the same ! 

I listen to George signal with vertical "in the water " and the 10 db
difference in signal is real.  Moving the antenna on the beach and you lose
10 db or even more on practice, not on paper.

I see that on my S  meter more than a dozen times.

George has a vertical on his house in Miami, the ground plane is just a
plate down the water. The vertical is made with fiberglass pole 18m high. My
antenna is a full size vertical with a good radial system over the Everglade
land, if I dig 2 Ft I have water from the Everglade underground river. 

George can run a pile up from Europe with 10W, I can keep up with him
running legal limit power. We are talking about 160m only.

73's
JC
N4IS

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