Re: Topband: future of ham radio

[Steve Baughn]

Mark,

It is not a matter of someone "not liking" a discussion but there should be 
some reasonable conclusion at some point-and some of the topics could be 
discussed ad infinitum such as this one. It is also not just a matter of 
hitting the delete button-every time you check you phone for emails there 
are 25-30 on the same thing over a course of days. At some point it gets a 
little old and time to move on.


Steve, WD8NPL



-Original Message- 
From: Mark K3MSB

Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 3:27 PM
To: Bob Wolters
Cc: topBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: future of ham radio

The "Delete" key is a wonderful thing.  Just because you don't like a
discussion thread doesn't mean others feel the same way.Nobody is
forcing you to read anything you don't want to.

I've been contemplating both sides of this discussion, and others, whose
points I don't agree with, believe it or not have given me food for thought.

There have been a lot of good examples in this thread that I plan to use in
a letter to the ARRL.

Someone wanting a discussion banned or stopped, just because they don't
like it, is the height of arrogance.

This topic is relevant not only to TB but also to amateur radio in
general.   As long as it's kept civil, I'm willing to listen.

Mark K3MSB




On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Bob Wolters  wrote:


Is there another more appropriate forum/reflector for discussions of
different modes and operating habits and history ?

A place to discuss personal beliefs ?

The below were just a few examples of the discussions filling up the
topband mailbox and my mail box this week and
seem to have little to do with top band itself.  They are NOT directed at
Mike or Roger below.

Thanks in advance and 73,

Bob W5XC



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU
Mike Fatchett
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 9:31 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: future of ham radio

Roger,

Do you work FT8?  Have you attempted to work any DX on FT8?  It takes some
skill.

There are different skillsets required.  I could argue it takes little
skill to buy a 10kw amplifier a remote radio membership and use remote
receivers all over the world takes little skill too.

Please stop demeaning others that happen to like a part of the hobby you
do not.   What is interesting to you is not interesting to others.

Did you read where there are more FT8 uploads to Clublog than SSB and CW
combined?  Sorry this is a great thing for the hobby. People are making
contacts and actually using the bands.

W0MU


On 10/28/2017 3:42 AM, Roger Kennedy wrote:
> I appreciate the point about trying to get youngsters interested in
> the hobby . . .
>
> However, the trouble with the computer-based Digital modes is that
> there is no SKILL involved in having a contact - it's your Computer
having a contact!
>
> That lack of skill and therefore achievement is what gets people
> hooked into a hobby - if there's none they will quickly become bored.
>
> Look what happened with the countless new Amateurs (with new
> easy-to-get-licences) who just came on VHF and used Repeaters - they
> quickly got bored and most are now inactive, unless they were
> fortunate to have someone show them how satisfying making REAL contacts
can be.
>
> The same can be said about Motor Racing . . . if the cars people used
> getting into the sport all had ABS, Traction Control, Automatic
> Transmission etc etc it would be pretty boring and they'd soon lose
interest.
>
> 73 Roger G3YRO
>
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Re: Topband: subject

[Steve Baughn]

AMEN Don-this dead horse has been beaten enough!

73, Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: Donald Moth via Topband

Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 3:44 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: subject

Isn't it about time to move on from FT8 to other things like DX and who is 
hearing who at what time and strength. on CW or SSB. We've milked this to an 
end. Only my own openion

Don W2MPK
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Re: Topband: VK0EK confirmation

[Steve Baughn]

Very well said Mike-agree 100%

Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: mstang...@comcast.net

Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 1:26 PM
To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: VK0EK confirmation

Jim,

This outburst is unnecessary and goes against the spirit of Amateur radio 
and the Topband.


A operator's participation should not depend on any donation from any 
"sponsors".


This is also unprofessional. One should never embarrass a person when 
discussing or debating an issue. I was taught this in my engineering 
education it has been reinforced many times in my career.


I think you owe SP6AEG and SP6EQZ an apology.

Mike N2MS


- Original Message -
From: Jim Brown 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:05:35 - (UTC)
Subject: Re: Topband: VK0EK confirmation

On Mon,4/18/2016 2:56 AM, Andrzej_SP6AEG wrote:
Courtesy of my friend  Wlodzimierz Herej SP6EQZ paid a donation of $ 10 
for

VK0EK.


Sounds like you're one of the last of the big spenders!


To this day I have not found confirmation of my QSO on LoTW?.
I sent the payment on April 12, 2016
Is the donation has been sent too late and the previous procedure does not
work, can I do something wrong?.


Did you not read the VK0EK website?  Early LOTW confirmations would be
sent to those who contributed BEFORE the expedition began. Like you, I
waited until I had worked them on the boat on their way to Heard to send
them $300. That's much more than I usually contribute to DX trips, but
this was a VERY expensive one. I sent a check, and got a nice thank you
note from KK6EK's XYL. She said I'll get my LOTW when Bob returns home.


I guess I will have to again make fee to confirm my QSO using the form:
https://shop.vk0ek.org/


It would be good for you to again make a contribution, increasing the
size of your support. This was a VERY costly expedition.

Thank you very much for having responded to my call, and especially to 160 
m

what  gave me 263 entities to 160 DXCC.


The way to say thank you is to send more money. :)

European hams got 52.5% of VK0EK QSOs, NA got 19.4%.  EU got 2,372
Topband Q's, NA got 293 (I got one of them).  Many NA hams who DO
contribute to these trips are getting more than a bit tired of hearing
EU stations complaining about DXpeditions not working them but not
sending money to support the costs.  Most NA hams are retired, so when
we send money it is from our savings or our pensions.  Here's a partial
list of the guys who paid for your QSO.

https://vk0ek.org/sponsors-3/

73, Jim K9YC
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Topband: SAL-30

[Steve Baughn]

Anyone using the SAL-30 for a receiving antenna? I would interested in hearing 
and also if anyone has any experience comparing it to a beverage performance 
wise. I was only able to get one bi-directional beverage up before winter and 
it is running NE/SW. I am wondering if this would be a better option to putting 
up another beverage or not. My beverages are about 580’. Many thanks.

73,
Steve, WD8NPL
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Re: Topband: RHR

[Steve Baughn]

I thought the moderator had asked that we move on from this topic. 


Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: Roger D Johnson 
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 9:22 AM 
To: TOPBAND@CONTESTING.COM 
Subject: Re: Topband: RHR 


Just wondering what provisions have been made if a drunk operator gets on
the remote station and wreaks havoc or if a remote transmitter malfunctions
and starts spewing garbage?

73, Roger N1RJ

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Re: Topband: strange propagation

[Steve Baughn]

Amen Howard...The reflectors are great as a lot of us learn quite a bit. The 
line gets crossed when it becomes a " I can urinate farther than you can" 
event. I think some could check their egos and if there is a difference of 
opinion try to remember this is a hobby instead of castigating the 
originating party. Personally I think Tom has added untold experience here 
and his absence only hurts what the reflectors are intended for.


73,
Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: Howard K2HK

Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:22 PM
To: Pete Smith N4ZR
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: strange propagation

I have followed with some interest. Early posts had some merit but it soon 
turns into a free for all. I have had my own thoughts for many years but 
thought this was not the forum to express them since it serves little 
purpose. My feeling is the forum should be for technical information or 
questions. No doubt that amateur radio is keeping up with other forms of 
dissonance in our society. I hope we can return to the spirit of amateur 
radio and Tom continues to join us.


Howard..K2Hk

On the road

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:

By all means, please don't leave, Tom.  Until recently, this sort of junk 
stayed on CQ-Contest.  Perhaps we can give it the cold shoulder and it'll 
wither away.  This is still the place I look to for serious discussion of, 
among other topics, low-band verticals and receiving antennas.


73, Pete N4ZR
Download the new N1MM Logger+ at
. Check
out the Reverse Beacon Network at
, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.


On 1/16/2016 8:52 AM, Louis Parascondola via Topband wrote:
Tom, by you leaving would just fuel the egos of those VERY few who want 
to stir up trouble.  If we get off the discussion things should return to 
normal.  I am done with the RHR discussion.  When it was a healthy 
discussion where sensible arguments were presented I see no problem, but 
when it gets boiled down to comparing them with the  guy who pumped the 
price of the drug that is the toilet and that's where it will end.  I'm 
sure others will feel the same.  Hang in there.



Lou W1QJ



-Original Message-
From: Tom W8JI 
To: Louis Parascondola ; n1rj ; 
topband 

Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2016 8:37 am
Subject: Re: Topband: strange propagation

This reflector has gone down the toilet with personal BS that serves no
purpose except to pick fights.

After 20 years, I'm leaving it.It sure went down the tubes.


- Original Message -
From: "Louis Parascondola via Topband" 
To: ; 
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: strange propagation



That was not nice.


Lou W1QJ



-Original Message-
From: Roger D Johnson 
To: topband 
Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2016 7:09 am
Subject: Re: Topband: strange propagation


Sounds a lot like the RHR folks!



A friend of mine at the Georgia State Public Service Training Center
(right
down my street) says this social trend, made pandemic through Internet,
has
even been assigned a name now. It is called Homogeneous Clustering. 
This

is
where groups of people cluster together and invent their own reality,
feed off
each other's emotions, and dismiss anyone outside their group as a
problem and
dishonest.


73 Tom
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Re: Topband: strange propagation

[Steve Baughn]

Tom hits some excellent points here. How is the RHR issue any different than 
say the owner of a "big gun" station allowing others to come over an operate 
using their callsigns for DXCC? I know of one instance years ago and the 
station owner who is now an SK ran his stacked monobanders driven by an 
IC781  and a 3CX3000 amp-do we really think he was even running legal limit? 
He showed me one time when his rig pegged a 5kw slug like nothing. At one 
time this individual did a stint on the DX advisory Board.  I do not agree 
with this methodology nor the RHR thing for awards but I am not going to let 
it upset the state of my digestion. If it is such an issue then it seems it 
comes down to the ARRL trying to change it they receive another flack about 
it. As amateurs I think we can only do what we think is right regardless of 
what someone else does-particularly since as Tom pointed out the station 
licenses were done away with.


73,
Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: Tom W8JI

Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 8:00 AM
To: Louis Parascondola ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: strange propagation

I can't be 100% sure but I think this will all wash down to the fact that 
stations are no longer licensed and the control operator is fully 
responsible.  And I do believe that is the case.  RHR has lawyers on 
retainer and I'm sure this has been legally looked at.  I can get the 
ruling they go by.




This all comes up every time with this subject. I don't know why people have
such a difficult time remembering it. Like politics today, we can't let
facts get in the way of hyperbole. It is also more fashionable to hate and
complain than offer any viable solution. It is always all about the insults
instead of solutions..

Starting way back about 35 years ago, we no longer had station licenses. We
no longer had to sign mobile, tell the FCC where we were at if out of local
district, and no longer had to sign portable. Station licenses were gone as
long as we were in the continental USA.  The license is with the control op.

About the same time, location or station for DXCC also changed and did not
matter. DXCC went with the call, not the location.

It was also never illegal to make money from property in a station, it was
only illegal to charge for the service of communication or use
communications to augment business communications. People have been renting
stations and equipment for years and years, and people have "made money"
since the very first copper wire was sold.

The proper way to handle this, if people disagree with the rules, is to work
to have the rules changed. I would suggest, however, things get thought
through very carefully. It would be very easy to kill or seriously damage
the hobby with poor changes.

It seems to me the real problem is people want an award for DXCC
specifically to how they operate and live, and everyone has to fit that
criteria.

To me, that makes absolute sense for three tiers.

1.) You cannot use a club station, you cannot move, you cannot phone a
friend. This would be a STATION and operator DXCC.

2.) DXCC to the station no matter who the op.

3.) DXCC to the no matter what the station. This is what we have now.

Instead of whining like two-year-olds about what the FCC rules are, because
the FCC will never roll back to making us have specific station locations,
the real solution is in what the DXCC rules are. The award rules will not be
changed here, and it is very unlikely the ARRL with yank DXCC's from people
who have worked DX from more than one location, so the best approach would
be a new DXCC with all contacts allowed from one location, where it is the
licensee's station and operating.

73 Tom

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Re: Topband: strange propagation

[Steve Baughn]

Mark-very well said..As W8ZR noted earlier this horse has been beat to death 
enough..As has been well enumerated ad nauseum  some like it some don't. 
Let's leave it at that and move on.


Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: lmlangenf...@tds.net

Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 12:19 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: strange propagation

Seems to me the final judge in all of this is the guy who stares back at you 
from the mirror every morning.  There are a million ways to game the rules 
and outright cheat ... even in ham radio, where the rewards for a "win" are 
pretty abstract. If the guy gazing straight back at you is comfortable with 
your operating practices, how I feel about it is pretty irrelevant.  We can 
preach about good sportsmanship and high standards until we're collectively 
blue in the face but, so long as there are people whose operating philosophy 
is "the end justifies the means," we're wasting our breath.  At the end of 
the day, whether my logs, QSLs and awards reflect an honest effort or mere 
"scores" empty of other significance is something that matters to me (and 
the guy in the mirror). YMMV.


73,

Mark -- WA9ETW



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Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Steve Baughn]

Tnx to all for the replies. This gives me a better understanding and starting 
point for the project!

73,
Steve, WD8NPL

From: Mike Waters 
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:44 PM
To: sawye...@earthlink.net 
Cc: topband ; Steve Baughn 
Subject: Re: Topband: beverage layout

Hello Ed,


Thanks for the heads-up. I didn't know about the K1TTT website.


This looks interesting. Comments from a number of hams on Beverage antenna 
materials:
www.k1ttt.net/technote/materials.html#fencewire


I haven't found any other info on Beverages on that site yet, but I'll keep 
looking. :-)


73, Mike

www.w0btu.com


On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Ed Sawyer <sawye...@earthlink.net> wrote:

  ... K1TTT has great resources on his website for such designs, as do others.

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Topband: beverage layout

[Steve Baughn]

I am planning to put up two bi-directional beverages at my QTH. Being as this 
is the first time I have had the real estate and time I have a couple questions 
regarding same:

1) Since these will be running at 90 degree angles to one another, can the feed 
points for both be relatively close to each other i.e. a few feet or so or do 
they need to be farther apart?

2) I have read some contradictory material as far as type of wire to use for 
these. A few sources say WD-1 field phone wire but then another says there is 
fairly high loss in this. Same for 450 ohm ladderline who some say has its 
drawbacks during rainy/snowy periods. It appears that electric fence wire may 
be the best option given its durability (these antennas will probably be 
running through the woods).

3) If I do go with the fence wire as I understand it the spacing should be 
fairly close between the two wires such as an inch or so and mounted about 10’ 
off the ground. I am considering a metsl T post with pvc slid over it then 
holes through each vertical pvc piece to run the wires. 

I am located just outside Mount Vernon Ohio if anyone in the vicinity is an 
authority on this any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks much!

73,
Steve, WD8NPL
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Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Steve Baughn]

Ed,

I am referring to two switched 2 direction beverages, each with its own 
reflection transformer.


73,
Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: Ed Sawyer

Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 12:18 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: beverage layout

Are you actually talking about "switched 2 direction beverages" or 2
bi-directional beverages.



A bi-directional beverage receives in 2 directions at the same time on a
single wire.  It is un-terminated.  I have 2 of these in my beverage farm:
one E/W and one N/S.



A switched single direction 2 wire beverage can be switched for pattern and
can be implemented with ladder line or closely spaced individual wires.
K1TTT has great resources on his website for such designs, as do others.



Personally, I do not find the gain differences that big between my beverage
choices (although they are measurable).  The GAME CHANGER is F/B ratio.



I have a phased 2 wire array to EU with 2 terminated wires of approx. 950 ft
in length spaced roughly 50 ft apart and running parallel.  The US stations
on 40 and 80M drop by 5 S units vs the bi-direction beverage running E/W.
The EU station goes up by roughly an S unit.  For contesting - it's a game
changer.



On 160M I see less F/B impact but similar 1 s Unit gain in the EU direction.



Ed  N1UR

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