Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
Stan, Thanks for the praise! I wish I would have the same RX capabilities as TX, but my limited sized rock wont allow for it. Right now I have two pennants, one in NW and the other in NE plus a 50 meter BOG in N-S with can be reversed in direction but mainly for AF. Fortunately it is rural so the TX antenna is also helpful in RX. Normally I listen in diversity with the TX antenna in one ear, and one of the RX antennas in the other. I also have a Clifton active whip on the site, but its temporarily out of order. > I tried radials on the ground and in the water but as you and others have > said, everything changes with the tide and when the waves get big. I have much better consistency in impedance with the "floating ground rods” plus a few short radials on ground compared with any of the attempts with lifted radials. The trick is to make sure the radials floats within the skin effect depth which should be around 12-13” on 160. Rudy suggests a thin sheet metal or screen, about 12” deep with a diameter of 12-24" to provide a low- resistance ground. I opted for the rods as I had them available and this arrangement will still allow me to use the bridge for its intended purpose. I will send the photo in email not to bog down the list too much. 73 + HNY de Björn, SM0MDG SE0X > On 29 Dec 2022, at 02:13, Stan Stockton wrote: > > > Björn, > > I would like to see your picture if you could send it to me. You are always > strong on 160 and now we know why. > > For the verticals I have put up on a temporary basis very close to the water, > I am pleased with just two elevated radials. I tried radials on the ground > and in the water but as you and others have said, everything changes with the > tide and when the waves get big. > > If anyone had a protected area to eliminate the waves and then something that > would float with copper sheeting on the bottom, that would be great! My > permanent antenna, a shunt fed tower, is not as close to the water (about 70 > feet away) and I try to have a reasonably good ground radial system although > they are confined to 180 degrees since that tower is very near my property > line. > > A salt water location makes it easy to have a big signal with a relatively > simple antenna. Of course it also causes some corrosion and weatherproofing > challenges that stations inland don’t have to worry about so much. Given a > choice, I’ll take the salty water. > > 73… Stan, ZF9CW > >> On Dec 28, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Bjorn SM0MDG wrote: >> Björn _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
Björn, I would like to see your picture if you could send it to me. You are always strong on 160 and now we know why. For the verticals I have put up on a temporary basis very close to the water, I am pleased with just two elevated radials. I tried radials on the ground and in the water but as you and others have said, everything changes with the tide and when the waves get big. If anyone had a protected area to eliminate the waves and then something that would float with copper sheeting on the bottom, that would be great! My permanent antenna, a shunt fed tower, is not as close to the water (about 70 feet away) and I try to have a reasonably good ground radial system although they are confined to 180 degrees since that tower is very near my property line. A salt water location makes it easy to have a big signal with a relatively simple antenna. Of course it also causes some corrosion and weatherproofing challenges that stations inland don’t have to worry about so much. Given a choice, I’ll take the salty water. 73… Stan, ZF9CW > On Dec 28, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Bjorn SM0MDG wrote: > Björn _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
weeks. I had a Butternut HF6V > with 160 coil and I mounted it on a 3' piece of copper pipe in a > secluded part of the beach near the rocks about 2' above the waterline, > with about 30 short radials attached to it. > > At some point in the middle of the night, I noticed that I began to hear > what sounded like "swishing" sounds, not loud but persistent, for a few > hours and then it stopped. The swr and resonant freq. on 80 and 160 > changed slightly but not enough to matter. Curious, I went out just at > dawn and noticed that the radials were all in a clump and riding on the > water like the tentacles of a Man 'O war. > > During the night the tide came up about 3'vertically and the bottom of > the vertical was immersed in the water along with the radials which were > then washed into a mess. That apparently was the "swishing" sound I had > heard. LOL! The performance was excellent the sounds were cool, the > only time that I have ever heard them. > > The salt water effect was so remarkable that I could hear a 3W station > round the clock on 15M for several days - but he couldn't hear me except > in the daytime. The EU stations were absurdly loud on 80 cw and I heard > several levels of Russian stations that I never heard before or since > from W1. > > I had a similar experience with a 14AVT vertical stuck in the oil sands > of Aruba in January 1986 when I was the first to activate P4. The > vertical was not as good and it was planted 100' back from the water, > but the water table was high and water was in the beach sand only 1' > down and the copper pipe was stuck into that (there was also oil just > underneath the surface in the water - I'm not sure if that helped or > not.) > > Even though it was the bottom of the sunspot cycle, the LP JA signals on > 40 at Sunset were INCREDIBLE!, often S9 - S9 + 20 and the pileup of > JA's literally drowned out the pileup of Europeans for about an hour. > LOL! > > 73 > > Bob, KQ2M > > > On 2022-12-19 17:18, W7TMT - Patrick wrote: >> I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater >> of Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a >> number of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a >> single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the >> middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water >> surface. Works great. >> >> I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a >> floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing >> suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: >> http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 >> >> 73 >> Patrick, W7TMT >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Topband On >> Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER >> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 >> To: Radio KH6O ; topband@contesting.com >> Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater >> >> If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low >> impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. >> During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical >> on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 >> radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The >> antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. >> Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the >> radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the >> radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between >> when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of >> the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna >> had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. >> Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we >> always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where >> we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with >> radials. >> >> Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one >> night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 >> feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above >> the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the >> antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the >> difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. >> (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU >> >> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: >>>> Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next >>>> to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector > > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
r of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a > single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the > middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water > surface. Works great. > > I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a > floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing > suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: > http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 > > 73 > Patrick, W7TMT > > -Original Message- > From: Topband On > Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 > To: Radio KH6O ; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater > > If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low > impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. > During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical > on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 > radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The > antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. > Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the > radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the > radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between > when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of > the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna > had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. > Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we > always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where > we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with > radials. > > Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one > night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 > feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above > the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the > antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the > difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. > (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU > > On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: >>> Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next >>> to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
Don't forget to add a resistor, to avoid stadic building charge: 10Mohm or so 73 Boye On 20-12-2022 03:17, GEORGE WALLNER wrote: On boat you need to put a capacitor (22 nF or greater) in series with the GND connection. That will stop DC from "melting" your sacrificial anodes. GW On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 17:27:59 -0700 Mark Schoonover wrote: I did the same thing unfortunately all the sacrificial zincs disappeared in a few months. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 16:18 W7TMT - Patrick wrote: I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater of Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a number of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water surface. Works great. I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 73 Patrick, W7TMT -Original Message- From: Topband On Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 To: Radio KH6O < radio.k...@gmail.com>; topband@contesting.comSubject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
On boat you need to put a capacitor (22 nF or greater) in series with the GND connection. That will stop DC from "melting" your sacrificial anodes. GW On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 17:27:59 -0700 Mark Schoonover wrote: I did the same thing unfortunately all the sacrificial zincs disappeared in a few months. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 16:18 W7TMT - Patrick wrote: I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater of Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a number of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water surface. Works great. I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 73 Patrick, W7TMT -Original Message- From: Topband On Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 To: Radio KH6O < radio.k...@gmail.com>; topband@contesting.comSubject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
I only deploy it when needed. I’m lucky to be able to put antennas up at all so they go up on contest weekend Fridays and come down on Monday. I do leave the ground hanging over the side and lower it into the water as needed to be used with the insulated back stay. It’s a balancing act doing this from a boat. W7TMT From: Mark Schoonover Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 4:27:59 PM To: W7TMT - Patrick Cc: GEORGE WALLNER ; Radio KH6O ; topband Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater I did the same thing unfortunately all the sacrificial zincs disappeared in a few months. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 16:18 W7TMT - Patrick mailto:w7...@outlook.com>> wrote: I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater of Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a number of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water surface. Works great. I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 73 Patrick, W7TMT -Original Message- From: Topband mailto:outlook@contesting.com>> On Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 To: Radio KH6O mailto:radio.k...@gmail.com>>; topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com> Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: >> Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next >> to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
I did the same thing unfortunately all the sacrificial zincs disappeared in a few months. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 16:18 W7TMT - Patrick wrote: > I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater of > Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a number of > different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a single piece of > 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the middle. I hang it > horizontally over the side just below the water surface. Works great. > > I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a > floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing > suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: > http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 > > 73 > Patrick, W7TMT > > -Original Message- > From: Topband On > Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 > To: Radio KH6O ; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater > > If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low > impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. > During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on > a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials > of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed > via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high > tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For > the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never > noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were > in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the > radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact > with the water. > Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we > always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we > drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. > > Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one > night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet > from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I > was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the > water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, > I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, > AA7JV/C6AGU > > On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: > >> Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next > >> to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR > > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
In 1990 I was visiting Antigua (V2) for 2 weeks. I had a Butternut HF6V with 160 coil and I mounted it on a 3' piece of copper pipe in a secluded part of the beach near the rocks about 2' above the waterline, with about 30 short radials attached to it. At some point in the middle of the night, I noticed that I began to hear what sounded like "swishing" sounds, not loud but persistent, for a few hours and then it stopped. The swr and resonant freq. on 80 and 160 changed slightly but not enough to matter. Curious, I went out just at dawn and noticed that the radials were all in a clump and riding on the water like the tentacles of a Man 'O war. During the night the tide came up about 3'vertically and the bottom of the vertical was immersed in the water along with the radials which were then washed into a mess. That apparently was the "swishing" sound I had heard. LOL! The performance was excellent the sounds were cool, the only time that I have ever heard them. The salt water effect was so remarkable that I could hear a 3W station round the clock on 15M for several days - but he couldn't hear me except in the daytime. The EU stations were absurdly loud on 80 cw and I heard several levels of Russian stations that I never heard before or since from W1. I had a similar experience with a 14AVT vertical stuck in the oil sands of Aruba in January 1986 when I was the first to activate P4. The vertical was not as good and it was planted 100' back from the water, but the water table was high and water was in the beach sand only 1' down and the copper pipe was stuck into that (there was also oil just underneath the surface in the water - I'm not sure if that helped or not.) Even though it was the bottom of the sunspot cycle, the LP JA signals on 40 at Sunset were INCREDIBLE!, often S9 - S9 + 20 and the pileup of JA's literally drowned out the pileup of Europeans for about an hour. LOL! 73 Bob, KQ2M On 2022-12-19 17:18, W7TMT - Patrick wrote: I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater of Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a number of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water surface. Works great. I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 73 Patrick, W7TMT -Original Message- From: Topband On Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 To: Radio KH6O ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
I run an 80' high vertical on 160M from my sailboat in the saltwater of Puget Sound/Salish Sea near Seattle. After experimenting with a number of different saltwater connections I've simplified it to a single piece of 1/2" dia. copper pipe 10' long and tapped in the middle. I hang it horizontally over the side just below the water surface. Works great. I recently ran across a post by SE0X running an 160/80M vertical on a floating dock who uses two lengths of suspended pipe. His RBN testing suggested that adding a second one made a difference. Details here: http://blog.se0x.info/?p=3442#more-3442 73 Patrick, W7TMT -Original Message- From: Topband On Behalf Of GEORGE WALLNER Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 14:19 To: Radio KH6O ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: >> Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next >> to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas and saltwater
If the antenna stands in the salt-water or if you have a short, low impedance connection to the water, you don't need radials. During the VK9WWI DXpedition to Willis Islets, we installed a vertical on a sand spit that was covered by water most of the time. We had 12 radials of various lengths a couple of feet above the water. The antenna was fed via an antenna coupler (tuner) mounted on its base. Every night during high tide the waves knocked down and washed the radials into a tangled mess. For the first three days we restored the radials every morning. But we never noticed any difference between when the radials were up or when they were in a heap at the base of the antenna. After three days we got rid of the radials. The antenna had a heavy metal base which was always in contact with the water. Ever since then, on various DXpeditions (TX3A, VK9GMW, PT0S, etc.), we always put the antennas into the water (or the very edge of it where we drive into the sand a grounding stake) and never bothered with radials. Years ago I had a vertical at C6AGU standing in the water. During one night a storm knocked it down. I reinstalled it up the beach about 75 feet from the high tide line. I added 16 radials about 3 feet above the sand, I was told that my 160 m signal was down 10 dB. I put the antenna back in the water and had a good signal again. Whether the difference was really 10 dB, I don't know. But it was substantial. (That was before RBN.) 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:23:54 -0800 Radio KH6O wrote: Ideal is if you can run some RG58 out to the beach and plunk it next to thewater. Also use 4 radials there.Enjoy.Ed N1UR _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Antennas down at VE3CV - Ice Storm!
On 2013-12-25, at 9:40 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: Well the ice storm did a job here. Hi Guys, Well, the truth be known, I haven't uttered so much as a single peep on Topband at all this season: the dual knee replacements of last July here have left me in constant pain in both legs, while the spirit may well have been willing, the flesh was not---certainly not at the prospect of unrolling 72 ground radials beneath the seasonal 3-element phased inverted L array No matter: the power outage here started late Saturday night, didn't ease-up until 9:50 PM on Monday. In the interim, ice-laden trees branches took down the end supporting tree of my northern L, as well as the end supporting tree of my eastern L. The coup de grace was a massive bunch of tree branches that came crashing down upon my two K9AY loops in the back yard. We lost a LOT of nature's antenna supports with the 1 coating of ice that we received here---and the temperatures have been so cold as to keep the ice exactly where it has been since the past weekend. One good spell of high winds, I can see even MORE fallen trees outages of hydro electric power. Ain't wintertime just a grand glorious thing...?! (NOT!). Oh well, from what I've been hearing, 160-meters hasn't been any great shakes this season, anyway...small consolation maybe, I know, but I'll take any every bit that I can take! ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Antennas down at VE3CV - Ice Storm!
No power here yet. Yesterday 75 % of Belfast residents without power, today 50%. Large number of power line-men from all over now here to give up their Christmas to help those with out heat. Antenna condx here lot of unknown. A modified song title for all the family guys. The WX outside is frightful, but the WX inside is FB, I got my XYL, es 88's to keep me warm OK, We'll just have to Grin and bear it. 73 Bruce-K1FZ Ain't wintertime just a grand glorious thing...?! (NOT!). Oh well, from what I've been hearing, 160-meters hasn't been any great shakes this season, anyway...small consolation maybe, I know, but I'll take any every bit that I can take! ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Antennas down at VE3CV - Ice Storm!
I had ice here in SW MO, but not that bad. One wire on one 2-wire Beverage broke (at a weak spot), and the Inverted-L wires got stretched, but that's apparently all. Still have to fix it. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Antennas down at VE3CV - Ice Storm!
Same bad news here in West Michigan. 3/4 ice toppled the 60' mast holding my inv V that had been up for the last 12 years, and also brought down one leg of the T xmit antenna with other leg drooping badly. I still have 1/2 ice coating the vertical section and it won't tune. It may get up to 33° on Saturday and it is unlikely that will melt any ice and allow any repair. So for the first time in over 10 years I'll probably miss the Stew. Have fun and maybe I'll get back for next year. HNY TO ALL. Russ, N3CO Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Antennas
Price, The Military and U.S. Embassies use T2FD type of antennas all over their deployment perhaps due to the fact that they do work as long as you have plenty of horsepower to feed them with. I think the requirement of frequency agility for their requirement outweighs the inherent inefficiency. If you don't mind putting a radiating dummy load in the air then perhaps it is not such a bad idea. The design is still part of the military nomenclature with an ANN number and their is one on the VI national Guard building a few blocks from my office. It is hooked to a 10KW Harris 2-30 Mhz box to connect to FEMA Region 2 on a multitude of frequencies driving by the propagation at the moment. The T2FD mil spec version is supposed to be rugged enough to work through and survive a Cat 4 hurricane. None of my antennas nor towers could make that claim. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 8/3/2012 10:21 AM, HAROLD SMITH JR wrote: Hi Tom, I am suprised that no one has brought up the T2FD antenna and of course the BW All-Band antenna. It was in one of the magazines back in the (50s?). 73 Price W0RI ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Antennas
The T2FD was described in QST for June 1949 and CQ for November 1951 and February 1953, all by USN Capt G.L. Countryman, W3HH. Included are results reported by the USN, who did the design, in comparison to existing antennas as well as detailed construction details. Wire spacing and tilt angle are critical. Ive had one up for several years primarily as a SWL antenna for a couple of boatanchor receivers using a 10W resistor and have also made numerous 10-40W contacts with it without difficulty 80-17M. Ive no comparison wire antennas at similar heights so no performance claims are being made other than that I can work DX and domestic stations with it. The so called T2FD's sold these days by the usual ham dealer suspects is nowhere near the original design so its no stretch as to why its not a great performer. Others just give it a thumbs down without ever trying it and just waste a lot of others time with their views. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas Price, The Military and U.S. Embassies use T2FD type of antennas all over their deployment perhaps due to the fact that they do work as long as you have plenty of horsepower to feed them with. I think the requirement of frequency agility for their requirement outweighs the inherent inefficiency. If you don't mind putting a radiating dummy load in the air then perhaps it is not such a bad idea. The design is still part of the military nomenclature with an ANN number and their is one on the VI national Guard building a few blocks from my office. It is hooked to a 10KW Harris 2-30 Mhz box to connect to FEMA Region 2 on a multitude of frequencies driving by the propagation at the moment. The T2FD mil spec version is supposed to be rugged enough to work through and survive a Cat 4 hurricane. None of my antennas nor towers could make that claim. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 8/3/2012 10:21 AM, HAROLD SMITH JR wrote: Hi Tom, I am suprised that no one has brought up the T2FD antenna and of course the BW All-Band antenna. It was in one of the magazines back in the (50s?). 73 Price W0RI ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5174 - Release Date: 08/03/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Antennas
T2FD I though came out around in the Navy since 1940. It is -5 db down from a dipole. Shortened versions past and present are still -5db down from what I have been told. They are very good antennas for emergency stations. Stay on course, fight a good fight, and keep the faith. Jim K9TF/WA9YSD ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Antennas
EDIT: change the second paragraph to: Included are results reported by the USN, who did the design, in multiple comparisons to existing antennas at many locations as well as detailed construction details. Wire spacing and resistor value combined with feedline impedance is critical. The tilt angle is less critical and can be 20-40 degrees. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: ZR z...@jeremy.mv.com To: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net; topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 12:27 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas The T2FD was described in QST for June 1949 and CQ for November 1951 and February 1953, all by USN Capt G.L. Countryman, W3HH. Included are results reported by the USN, who did the design, in comparison to existing antennas as well as detailed construction details. Wire spacing and tilt angle are critical. Ive had one up for several years primarily as a SWL antenna for a couple of boatanchor receivers using a 10W resistor and have also made numerous 10-40W contacts with it without difficulty 80-17M. Ive no comparison wire antennas at similar heights so no performance claims are being made other than that I can work DX and domestic stations with it. The so called T2FD's sold these days by the usual ham dealer suspects is nowhere near the original design so its no stretch as to why its not a great performer. Others just give it a thumbs down without ever trying it and just waste a lot of others time with their views. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Antennas Price, The Military and U.S. Embassies use T2FD type of antennas all over their deployment perhaps due to the fact that they do work as long as you have plenty of horsepower to feed them with. I think the requirement of frequency agility for their requirement outweighs the inherent inefficiency. If you don't mind putting a radiating dummy load in the air then perhaps it is not such a bad idea. The design is still part of the military nomenclature with an ANN number and their is one on the VI national Guard building a few blocks from my office. It is hooked to a 10KW Harris 2-30 Mhz box to connect to FEMA Region 2 on a multitude of frequencies driving by the propagation at the moment. The T2FD mil spec version is supposed to be rugged enough to work through and survive a Cat 4 hurricane. None of my antennas nor towers could make that claim. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 8/3/2012 10:21 AM, HAROLD SMITH JR wrote: Hi Tom, I am suprised that no one has brought up the T2FD antenna and of course the BW All-Band antenna. It was in one of the magazines back in the (50s?). 73 Price W0RI ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5174 - Release Date: 08/03/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5174 - Release Date: 08/03/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Antennas
The so called T2FD's sold these days by the usual ham dealer suspects is nowhere near the original design so its no stretch as to why its not a great performer. Any antenna that increases bandwidth through a resistive termination will always lose a substantial portion of power as heat on bands where the resistive termination is correcting mismatches. There is no way around that problem, no matter what spacing or tilt is used. Loss varies a great deal with frequency, but loss is the mechanism that corrects match on high SWR bands. No matter what exact T2FD design, loss (efficiency) varies significantly with frequency and some frequencies will be pretty sour. The nice thing is almost anything can work DX when conditions are good. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
