Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Mike Waters]

This is interesting.

I recall a discussion here about very long LDEs awhile back. IIRC, it was
suggested that perhaps the magnetosphere and the Van Allen belts might be
involved, rather than the much closer ionosphere.

I heard a double echo on 75m last year. I heard his direct signal which was
followed by two echoes. All this was milliseconds apart.
The station was in NW Ohio and I'm in SW Missouri.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Brian Pease]

I experienced long delayed CW echos once on 20m, back in the 1980s 
before there was much wireless stuff.  Also, I lived in the country with 
no close neighbors.  The delay was significant because I was not using 
instant break-in, with the rig taking at least 1/4 sec to switch to 
receive.  I think it might have been longer than the delay of an around 
the world path.  Besides, I think I was using my 2 Watt QRP rig.


On 2/6/2017 12:23 PM, JC wrote:

Nowadays we have a huge amount of RF repeaters in use for several services,
like , Wi-Fi , LTE4, Data links. Microwave links, FM stations link, TV video
links.

All these systems has a receiver and a transmitter. The intermediated
frequency used can be close to few MHz depending the services. Like video.
Our HF signal can become data in these system,. A lot of this system does
not have the quality necessary, price is always a sales point, so poor
shield is very common.

  SDR technology that provide long delays, and  with very bad IP3 front end
are very common used on these system.

The long cables with not appropriate ground can become efficient antennas
for low bands, the common mode noise can get into the IF system and on the
receiver side and retransmitted on the transmitter side.

My point is that atmospheric plasma loops may not be the only answer for
250ms echo's. It is most unlike due the small power used during the event
observed. Manmade echo are more likely to explain the echo.

73's
JC
N4IS



  repeaters, Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Shoppa
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:44 PM
To: on7eh <on...@skynet.be>
Cc: topBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.

These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
especially ones to my north.

For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
dit length and very similar in strength.

Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna (Vertical),
the echo completely went away.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh <on...@skynet.be> wrote:


For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)

The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
sloping down to 11m.

Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder
what else does hearing echoes indicate?


73,
Michel, ON7EH



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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[JC]

Nowadays we have a huge amount of RF repeaters in use for several services,
like , Wi-Fi , LTE4, Data links. Microwave links, FM stations link, TV video
links. 

All these systems has a receiver and a transmitter. The intermediated
frequency used can be close to few MHz depending the services. Like video.
Our HF signal can become data in these system,. A lot of this system does
not have the quality necessary, price is always a sales point, so poor
shield is very common.

 SDR technology that provide long delays, and  with very bad IP3 front end
are very common used on these system.  

The long cables with not appropriate ground can become efficient antennas
for low bands, the common mode noise can get into the IF system and on the
receiver side and retransmitted on the transmitter side. 

My point is that atmospheric plasma loops may not be the only answer for
250ms echo's. It is most unlike due the small power used during the event
observed. Manmade echo are more likely to explain the echo.

73's
JC
N4IS



 repeaters, Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Shoppa
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:44 PM
To: on7eh <on...@skynet.be>
Cc: topBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.

These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
especially ones to my north.

For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
dit length and very similar in strength.

Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna (Vertical),
the echo completely went away.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh <on...@skynet.be> wrote:

> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S 
> and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, 
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder 
> what else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[K1FZ-Bruce]

 Andy,

There was a passenger on an airliner that took photographs of a very large 
Aurora at that time. .  One of the photographs was shown on TV   -ABC World 
News.

It is likely that the Aurora sparked all these events.

I have noticed that there appears to be a link between the start of an aurora 
and long path 160 meter openings.

73,  DX,

Bruce-K1FZ


 On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:42:58 +, Andy Cook  wrote:

I think this form of ducting takes place way above the layers of the atmosphere 
where weather happens. In my experience the magnetospheric ducting is normally 
localized in impact. If this was really happening in multiple places around the 
world at the same time on this occasion then I think that is unusual.

Andy, G4PIQ

-Original Message-
From: "K1FZ-Bruce" 
Sent: ‎06/‎02/‎2017 13:46
To: "g4...@btinternet.com" ; "Topband" 
Subject: Fwd:  Echo on 160m yesterday morning


 

Hi Andy,

Ducting takes place over a relatively small area.  Depends upon cloud layers 
and temperature zones

This event took place   ~ world wide.   Band openings between North America  to 
Asia, and Australia.

73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html




 On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:20:07 + (GMT), Andy Cook  wrote:

I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the 
articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation 
and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf. 
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about 
right and this is a peak time of year for the effect. 
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the 
winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That 
night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but 
it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which 
suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look 
plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the 
ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ 
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Andy Cook]

I think this form of ducting takes place way above the layers of the atmosphere 
where weather happens. In my experience the magnetospheric ducting is normally 
localized in impact. If this was really happening in multiple places around the 
world at the same time on this occasion then I think that is unusual.

Andy, G4PIQ

-Original Message-
From: "K1FZ-Bruce" 
Sent: ‎06/‎02/‎2017 13:46
To: "g4...@btinternet.com" ; "Topband" 

Subject: Fwd:  Echo on 160m yesterday morning


 

Hi Andy,

Ducting takes place over a relatively small area.  Depends upon cloud layers 
and temperature zones

This event took place   ~ world wide.   Band openings between North America  to 
Asia, and Australia.

73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html




 On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:20:07 + (GMT), Andy Cook  wrote:

I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the 
articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation 
and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf. 
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about 
right and this is a peak time of year for the effect. 
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the 
winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That 
night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but 
it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which 
suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look 
plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the 
ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ 
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Arthur Delibert]

Thanks.  Sounds from your description that the interval was very short, so it 
was not what has been called a "long-delayed" echo.



From: on7eh <on...@skynet.be>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:46 PM
To: Arthur Delibert; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

Art and all,

unfortunately, I do not have a PC in the shack outside contest days,
otherwise an answer could easily be provided.
For sure, its presence was annoying, not hearing the expected noise in
between the dit and dah's at 20wpm...

BTW: I ruled out the TRX given the infrequent echoes and the noted
difference in signal strength on the Beverages...

Michel, ON7EH


-Original Message-
From: Arthur Delibert
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:45 PM
To: on7eh ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
echo?


--Art Delibert, KB3FJO



From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of on7eh
<on...@skynet.be>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)

The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping
down to 11m.

Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
else does hearing echoes indicate?


73,
Michel, ON7EH



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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Tim Shoppa]

I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.

These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
especially ones to my north.

For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
dit length and very similar in strength.

Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna
(Vertical), the echo completely went away.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh  wrote:

> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[on7eh]

Art and all,

unfortunately, I do not have a PC in the shack outside contest days, 
otherwise an answer could easily be provided.
For sure, its presence was annoying, not hearing the expected noise in 
between the dit and dah's at 20wpm...


BTW: I ruled out the TRX given the infrequent echoes and the noted 
difference in signal strength on the Beverages...


Michel, ON7EH


-Original Message- 
From: Arthur Delibert

Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:45 PM
To: on7eh ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the 
echo?



--Art Delibert, KB3FJO



From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of on7eh 
<on...@skynet.be>

Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)

The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and 
NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping 
down to 11m.


Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what 
else does hearing echoes indicate?



73,
Michel, ON7EH



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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Having worked LU and CX on 2 meters SSB (100 watts 7 element beam) 
without any ionospheric skip in the strange ducting FAI mode that is at 
time formed by the magnetic field at the equator, i say that anything is 
possible. But the idea of a  multiple moderate angle skip with so many 
hops around the world and twice is IMHO really all that probable.


On 2/5/2017 3:13 PM, Art Snapper wrote:

I am wondering if there is a backscatter type condition that can also slow
down the Vp.

Art NK8X
ᐧ

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Tree  wrote:


I once had a very strong echo on 160.

The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance of about
42K miles.

You can listen to it here.  It is so strong that you won't believe that is
really the echo.  I send two dits and hear two dits come back.

http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav

It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:

http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html

I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a California
QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.

Tree N6TR

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert  wrote:


Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
echo?


--Art Delibert, KB3FJO



From: Topband  on behalf of on7eh <
on...@skynet.be>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)

The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S

and

NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
sloping down to 11m.

Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
else does hearing echoes indicate?


73,
Michel, ON7EH



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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Your transceiver 
switching may not have been fast enough to catch the echo the first time 
around.


On Sun, 5 Feb 2017 11:21:51 -0800, Tree  
wrote:





Yup - pretty crazy. Or space aliens were messing with 
me.


On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:51 AM, k1fz mailto:k...@myfairpoint.net; 
target="_blank">k...@myfairpoint.net wrote:

Great info Tree,

The earth is ~24,000 miles around at the equator, less toward the poles. 
(Reason we have 24 hours in a day)
Your timing would indicate that your echo was heard the second time around.

73
Bruce-k1fz

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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Art Snapper]

I am wondering if there is a backscatter type condition that can also slow
down the Vp.

Art NK8X
ᐧ

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Tree  wrote:

> I once had a very strong echo on 160.
>
> The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance of about
> 42K miles.
>
> You can listen to it here.  It is so strong that you won't believe that is
> really the echo.  I send two dits and hear two dits come back.
>
> http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav
>
> It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:
>
> http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html
>
> I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a California
> QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.
>
> Tree N6TR
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert  wrote:
>
> > Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
> > echo?
> >
> >
> > --Art Delibert, KB3FJO
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: Topband  on behalf of on7eh <
> > on...@skynet.be>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
> > To: topband@contesting.com
> > Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
> >
> > For the first time,
> > I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> > They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> > I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
> >
> > The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
> and
> > NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> > The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> > sloping down to 11m.
> >
> > Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> > else does hearing echoes indicate?
> >
> >
> > 73,
> > Michel, ON7EH
> >
> >
> >
> > _
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> > Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home > com/_topband>
> > www.contesting.com
> > Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:
> ...
> >
> >
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Tree]

I once had a very strong echo on 160.

The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance of about
42K miles.

You can listen to it here.  It is so strong that you won't believe that is
really the echo.  I send two dits and hear two dits come back.

http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav

It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:

http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html

I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a California
QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.

Tree N6TR

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert  wrote:

> Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
> echo?
>
>
> --Art Delibert, KB3FJO
>
>
> 
> From: Topband  on behalf of on7eh <
> on...@skynet.be>
> Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
>
> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _
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>
>
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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Arthur Delibert]

Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the echo?


--Art Delibert, KB3FJO



From: Topband  on behalf of on7eh 

Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)

The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and 
NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping 
down to 11m.

Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what else 
does hearing echoes indicate?


73,
Michel, ON7EH



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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[Art Snapper]

I noticed a few weak echoes this morning around 0400. I thought it was
someone playing around.

Art
NK8X
ᐧ

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh  wrote:

> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
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