Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
Just a few more observations with receive antennas. This past year, I did a lecture at the DX club about low band receive antennas. Basically, I gave points for various characteristics of the antennas as I employ them at my QTH. I compared the DX engineering circle 8 vs SAL vs Beverage vs K9AY. Among the factors considered were cost, ease of construction, size, usefulness, ease of repair, signals. The factors were based on my experience with them over the last years. The discussion was not limited to 160m but this was factored in. I added the numbers and made this part of the discussion. What I learned and presented was as objective as I could be. All things considered, the SAL-30 was the best performing system considering all factors. If I had to pick one antenna for receive, that would be the one. The circle 8 was the most expensive, by far. To be honest, mine is not optimized for 160m but is set at a compromise radius for 80 and 160, the radiators are about 20' tall and I exchanged all the preamps for HiZ ones instead of the original DXE. On 160m the coaxial bidirectional (900ft long) beverage provided the best signal strength into EU. I did not find much difference between a K9AY and the SAL-20. They all helped receive stations. For the most part, I have Delta Loop antennas for transmit. They are very noisy. So anything is better than them for receive. I will say this, the antennas all stayed up last winter but this year we had 6 ft of snow in two days just prior to the CW WW contest. Both the SAL-30 and the beverage were destroyed and needed to be repaired/replaced. I had the chance to fix the beverage, but it was broken in several places where trees came down on the wire. The circle 8 was not broken at all. The K9AY was not damaged either. We had winds of 70 mph plus during the storm. Large trees 8 in diameter were taken down. Pines were decapitated of all foliage. The circle 8 is pretty tough as I constructed it but it is just not a great 160m receive antenna. It is good but not as effective with S/N ratio to the NE as the beverage. I think some of my observations are latitude specific for Western New York and I acknowledge that my location is very very bad on antennas. Some of my yagis only lasted months before they were destroyed by wind storms. I eventually redesigned almost everything including the 4 Square vertical radiators that were severely damaged last winter. That is it. In my case, physical design of the receive antenna begins to be of paramount importance when considering installation. -- David J Rodman MD Assistant Clinical Professor Department of Ophthalmology SUNY/Buffalo Office 716-857-8654 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
Hello Mack My experience: I have operated 28 years on 160 meters from the same QTH. I started out with Beverages - which I thought worked great. The 880 foot one aimed at Europe was amazing. So I thought. 10 years ago I started experimenting with short vertical RX arrays. Passive elements at first. The comparison between short RX verticals vs. the Beverage antennas was encouraging. Four years ago I installed an 8 circle active RX array (23 ft elements) and never looked back. Two years ago I took down all the Beverages as they were never better than the 8 circle at this QTH. Last year I added a RX four square (same layout as the 8 circle, but just with 4 elements) that is broadside (500 ft spacing to EU) to the 8 circle. With both in phase - now achieving 15 dB of RDF. The RX is really good! One additional data point, Frank W3LPL is no longer using Beverages on 160 meters - just his passive BSEF short vertical arrays. There are many stations the have great RX results on the Topband with Beverages. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mack McCormick Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 9:12 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving Friends, I need to really increase my country count on 160M so I've decided to installed dedicated receiving antennas. My home is on a 6 acre rectangular lot so I have room for a couple of 800 ft beverages at 90 degree angles or an 8 element circular array. I've been carefully following the discussion about the merits of various 8 element arrays and beverages. *I believe the consensus is that a set of bi-directional beverages will generally perform better than any 8 element circular array. Am I correct? I'm specifically speaking about working countries on 160M and 80M.* I also believe the bi-directional antenna choices come down to two flavors. The DXEngineering ladder line version or the BevFlex-4 that uses RG-6. *I'm leaning toward the BevFlex-4.* I would REALLY appreciate your views on the recommended receive antenna system if space and money are not big concerns. I'd like to do it correctly one time and the first time. Vy 73, Mack W4AX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
Mack, I use two DXE bi-directional beverages, each 720 ft long, fed with a single 300 ft length of direct burial quad shield RG6. The DXE transformers and relay switching boxes use high quality weather-proof construction. That said, the ladder line caused me nothing but continuing maintenace headaches. Furthermore, the little DXE plastic ladder line clamps are very flimsy and broke within a few months. I finally gave up and replaced the ladder line with parallel lengths of WD-1a field telephone wire (the twisted pair version), supported on 4x4 posts with ceramic insulators. The electrical performance appears to be the same as with ladder line, but it makes for a much more robust installation and the field wire is much cheaper than ladder line. 73, Jim W8ZR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mack McCormick Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 7:12 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving Friends, I need to really increase my country count on 160M so I've decided to installed dedicated receiving antennas. My home is on a 6 acre rectangular lot so I have room for a couple of 800 ft beverages at 90 degree angles or an 8 element circular array. I've been carefully following the discussion about the merits of various 8 element arrays and beverages. *I believe the consensus is that a set of bi-directional beverages will generally perform better than any 8 element circular array. Am I correct? I'm specifically speaking about working countries on 160M and 80M.* I also believe the bi-directional antenna choices come down to two flavors. The DXEngineering ladder line version or the BevFlex-4 that uses RG-6. *I'm leaning toward the BevFlex-4.* I would REALLY appreciate your views on the recommended receive antenna system if space and money are not big concerns. I'd like to do it correctly one time and the first time. Vy 73, Mack W4AX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
Jim, Tim, and Tim, Thank you all for some really great advice. Perhaps I should look more closely at the 8 element receiving arrays. Are most of the 160M contest stations now using receiving array's vs. beverages? Since I'm moving to a new QTH I'd really like to have a best practice installation and not have to experiment a lot. Vy 73, Mack W4AX Mack On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Jim Garland 4cx2...@miamioh.edu wrote: Mack, I use two DXE bi-directional beverages, each 720 ft long, fed with a single 300 ft length of direct burial quad shield RG6. The DXE transformers and relay switching boxes use high quality weather-proof construction. That said, the ladder line caused me nothing but continuing maintenace headaches. Furthermore, the little DXE plastic ladder line clamps are very flimsy and broke within a few months. I finally gave up and replaced the ladder line with parallel lengths of WD-1a field telephone wire (the twisted pair version), supported on 4x4 posts with ceramic insulators. The electrical performance appears to be the same as with ladder line, but it makes for a much more robust installation and the field wire is much cheaper than ladder line. 73, Jim W8ZR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mack McCormick Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 7:12 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving Friends, I need to really increase my country count on 160M so I've decided to installed dedicated receiving antennas. My home is on a 6 acre rectangular lot so I have room for a couple of 800 ft beverages at 90 degree angles or an 8 element circular array. I've been carefully following the discussion about the merits of various 8 element arrays and beverages. *I believe the consensus is that a set of bi-directional beverages will generally perform better than any 8 element circular array. Am I correct? I'm specifically speaking about working countries on 160M and 80M.* I also believe the bi-directional antenna choices come down to two flavors. The DXEngineering ladder line version or the BevFlex-4 that uses RG-6. *I'm leaning toward the BevFlex-4.* I would REALLY appreciate your views on the recommended receive antenna system if space and money are not big concerns. I'd like to do it correctly one time and the first time. Vy 73, Mack W4AX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
On Sun,12/21/2014 6:11 AM, Mack McCormick wrote: I've been carefully following the discussion about the merits of various 8 element arrays and beverages. I suggest that you study W3LPL's excellent presentation on 160M RX antennas from K3LR's Contest University at Dayton this past spring. The various systems each have their merits, which depend upon their surroundings. I have reversible Beverages using DXE hardware, and my property is not hospitable to arrays of verticals. If my property were different, I'd strongly consider one of the vertical arrays. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
I just drafted a reply to Mack's question delineating the problem I've had with my vertical arrays. After I sent the e-mail, an idea popped into my head. I wonder if my problems have to do with ground conductivity? The soil here in New England is poor (2 mS) and beverages are known to perform well over poor ground. Dave, W0FLS, has had good results with his 8 circle but he has substantially better ground in Iowa (15 mS). Could those of you who have had better results with your vertical arrays than with Beverages let me know what your local ground conductivity is? If there is a correlation, I might see if putting down some radials will improve the situation. Thanks, Roger N1RJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
On 2014-12-21, at 12:23 PM, Roger D Johnson wrote: I just drafted a reply to Mack's question delineating the problem I've had with my vertical arrays. After I sent the e-mail, an idea popped into my head. I wonder if my problems have to do with ground conductivity? The soil here in New England is poor (2 mS) and beverages are known to perform well over poor ground. Dave, W0FLS, has had good results with his 8 circle but he has substantially better ground in Iowa (15 mS). Could those of you who have had better results with your vertical arrays than with Beverages let me know what your local ground conductivity is? If there is a correlation, I might see if putting down some radials will improve the situation. Thanks, Roger N1RJ Hi Roger, Before the devastating ice storm of December 2013 here, I had a 1500' long Beverage aimed to South America, a K9AY loop in the same direction: the loop would out-perform the wire 95% of the time, so I ended-up essentially listening on it, exclusively. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
Mack, My actual on-the-air test and experience at my QTH in Arkansas has revealed the 8 vertical array systems outperform beverages. I wrote an article with graphs showing the signal performance difference over one low band season that I can direct you to if you are interested and also provide some additional info on my experience. I still have nine Beverages operational but this will most likely be the last year I have them, retiring them in favor of the two vertical arrays that I run. Beverages are great low band RX antennas and I have been very successful with them, as well as learning a heck of a lot about them over the years, so do not take my response as being negative toward Bev's. At my QTH the vertical arrays are better performers. 73 Joel W5ZN Friends, I need to really increase my country count on 160M so I've decided to installed dedicated receiving antennas. My home is on a 6 acre rectangular lot so I have room for a couple of 800 ft beverages at 90 degree angles or an 8 element circular array. I've been carefully following the discussion about the merits of various 8 element arrays and beverages. *I believe the consensus is that a set of bi-directional beverages will generally perform better than any 8 element circular array. Am I correct? I'm specifically speaking about working countries on 160M and 80M.* I also believe the bi-directional antenna choices come down to two flavors. The DXEngineering ladder line version or the BevFlex-4 that uses RG-6. *I'm leaning toward the BevFlex-4.* I would REALLY appreciate your views on the recommended receive antenna system if space and money are not big concerns. I'd like to do it correctly one time and the first time. Vy 73, Mack W4AX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband www.w5zn.org _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Recommended Antennas for 160M/80M Receiving
Joel, Thank you very much for your kind reply. Do you have a preferred model of 8 element array that will perform well on 160M and 80M? Yes, I'd love to read the article. Of course, I belong to the ARRL. Vy 73, Mack W4AX Mack On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Joel Harrison w...@w5zn.org wrote: Mack, My actual on-the-air test and experience at my QTH in Arkansas has revealed the 8 vertical array systems outperform beverages. I wrote an article with graphs showing the signal performance difference over one low band season that I can direct you to if you are interested and also provide some additional info on my experience. I still have nine Beverages operational but this will most likely be the last year I have them, retiring them in favor of the two vertical arrays that I run. Beverages are great low band RX antennas and I have been very successful with them, as well as learning a heck of a lot about them over the years, so do not take my response as being negative toward Bev's. At my QTH the vertical arrays are better performers. 73 Joel W5ZN Friends, I need to really increase my country count on 160M so I've decided to installed dedicated receiving antennas. My home is on a 6 acre rectangular lot so I have room for a couple of 800 ft beverages at 90 degree angles or an 8 element circular array. I've been carefully following the discussion about the merits of various 8 element arrays and beverages. *I believe the consensus is that a set of bi-directional beverages will generally perform better than any 8 element circular array. Am I correct? I'm specifically speaking about working countries on 160M and 80M.* I also believe the bi-directional antenna choices come down to two flavors. The DXEngineering ladder line version or the BevFlex-4 that uses RG-6. *I'm leaning toward the BevFlex-4.* I would REALLY appreciate your views on the recommended receive antenna system if space and money are not big concerns. I'd like to do it correctly one time and the first time. Vy 73, Mack W4AX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband www.w5zn.org _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
