Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be retrieved for battery replacement. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: g...@ka1j.com, Topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 6:21:23 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Yes, that's what I was thinking too. The link Frank posted mentions continuous operation which is something I hadn't experienced on 160. What is amazing to me is how loud their signals are compared to other signals I hear on the band. I understand its their saltwater location but that's pretty much what I have too and if I was at 100 watts I doubt I'd be as loud as those 3W-8W transmitters. Since they're on frequencies that are outside the 1900-1999Khz they are most likely from some foreign ported ship operating close to our shore. Aggravating they make any of those bouys designed to operate in ham bands at all. 73, Gary KA1J BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Thanks for that link, Frank! Very enlightening and interesting!! It does seem to fit with my speculation that those carriers might be from buoys! I'm impressed with the directional resolution available to some folks on this reflector! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 2:31 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be retrieved for battery replacement. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: g...@ka1j.com, Topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 6:21:23 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Thanks, Gary Well, there are many vessels from Japan, Korea, US and Canada (and others) that operate out there! Yes, unfortunate that we have intruders in our bands! 73, Charlie,K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:36 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW Yes, that's what I was thinking too. The link Frank posted mentions continuous operation which is something I hadn't experienced on 160. What is amazing to me is how loud their signals are compared to other signals I hear on the band. I understand its their saltwater location but that's pretty much what I have too and if I was at 100 watts I doubt I'd be as loud as those 3W-8W transmitters. Since they're on frequencies that are outside the 1900-1999Khz they are most likely from some foreign ported ship operating close to our shore. Aggravating they make any of those bouys designed to operate in ham bands at all. 73, Gary KA1J BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Charlie, My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote: I'm impressed with the directional resolution available to some folks on this reflector! _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). 15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England states... Same problem out in the Northwest US, but opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). The best procedure is to use multiple stations with known locations to calibrate, and use a movable null. For example, if I use a DXE NCC-1 as a combiner for interferometer use, I can calibrate from W1AW and other ham stations in that general area. I can then easily resolve directions that are just 2 degrees apart in heading at that distance. Without that, just using the eight circle, I cannot really resolve middle NY from eastern Mass. I think as the FCC becomes less and less involved, and as their DF sites continue to deteriorate, hams may have to pick up their own system. The important point of this is that bearings have tolerances, sometimes very wide tolerances, so any plots should look like V's with ranges rather than lines. The best thing is always to get data from people with right angle lines, especially those close to the problem, and to look at the plots based on the real resolution of each plot. Some might be 120 degrees wide, and very few will be narrower than 20-30 degrees. _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Hi, Don Well, we can improve on that by using a solar determination of true North. The way that I do it for my antenna arrays is: 1.0 Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your location on the day that you are going to make the determination. 2.0 Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon. 3.0 At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North. (Best done on sunny day of course!) 73. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:31 AM To: Tom W8JI Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). 15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England states... Same problem out in the Northwest US, but opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Or a compass laying on a camera tripod, and an up-to-date magnetic declination map (Google it). 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote: ... by using a solar determination of true North. The way that I do it for my antenna arrays is: 1.0 Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your location on the day that you are going to make the determination. 2.0 Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon. 3.0 At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North. (Best done on sunny day of course!) _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
How about a compass and declination map? A bit simpler good enough +/- 2 degrees. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/WMM/image.shtml The standard for course plots on nautical charts is the letter T for true or M for magnetic after the degrees number and then an arrow to indicate for which direction the marking is valid. Of course, for antennas we really never care about magnetic headings so the only T makes sense to quote. Grant KZ1W On 11/1/2013 10:12 AM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: Hi, Don Well, we can improve on that by using a solar determination of true North. The way that I do it for my antenna arrays is: 1.0 Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your location on the day that you are going to make the determination. 2.0 Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon. 3.0 At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North. (Best done on sunny day of course!) 73. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:31 AM To: Tom W8JI Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). 15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England states... Same problem out in the Northwest US, but opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
