Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Charlie Cunningham
BTW, Gary,

When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked
at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south
bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC)

73, 
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Smith
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW

3.503.1 due south from SE CT.
3.501.6 due south from SE CT

73,

Gary
KA1J
 
 There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction
 on
 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is
 going on -
 two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 
 
 73,
 Tim K3LR
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
 Tim Duffy
 Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM
 To: topband@contesting.com
 Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
 
 I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier
 on
 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work.
  
 It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this
 evening
 
 Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from?
 
  
 
 73,
 
 Tim K3LR
 
 _
 Topband Reflector
 
 _
 Topband Reflector
 




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Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread donovanf
This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. 

http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm 

The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be 
retrieved 
for battery replacement. 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com 
To: g...@ka1j.com, Topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 6:21:23 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW 

BTW, Gary, 

When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked 
at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south 
bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 

73, 
Charlie, K4OTV 

-Original Message- 
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary 
Smith 
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM 
To: Topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 

3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 
3.501.6 due south from SE CT 

73, 

Gary 
KA1J 

 There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction 
 on 
 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is 
 going on - 
 two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 
 
 73, 
 Tim K3LR 
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
 Tim Duffy 
 Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM 
 To: topband@contesting.com 
 Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 
 
 I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier 
 on 
 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. 
 
 It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this 
 evening 
 
 Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 
 
 
 
 73, 
 
 Tim K3LR 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector 
 




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Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Gary Smith
Yes, that's what I was thinking too. The link Frank posted mentions 
continuous operation which is something I hadn't experienced on 160. 
What is amazing to me is how loud their signals are compared to other 
signals I hear on the band. I understand its their saltwater location 
but that's pretty much what I have too and if I was at 100 watts I 
doubt I'd be as loud as those 3W-8W transmitters. Since they're on 
frequencies that are outside the 1900-1999Khz they are most likely 
from some foreign ported ship operating close to our shore. 
Aggravating they make any of those bouys designed to operate in ham 
bands at all.

73,
Gary
KA1J
  
 BTW, Gary,
 
 When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the
 signals peaked
 at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your
 due south
 bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or
 SC)
 
 73, 
 Charlie, K4OTV


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is active.
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Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Charlie Cunningham
Thanks for that link, Frank! Very enlightening and interesting!! It does
seem to fit with my speculation that those carriers might be from buoys!

I'm impressed with the directional resolution available to some folks on
this reflector!

73,
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 2:31 AM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. 

http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm 

The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be
retrieved 
for battery replacement. 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com 
To: g...@ka1j.com, Topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 6:21:23 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW 

BTW, Gary, 

When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked

at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south

bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 

73, 
Charlie, K4OTV 

-Original Message- 
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary 
Smith 
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM 
To: Topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 

3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 
3.501.6 due south from SE CT 

73, 

Gary 
KA1J 

 There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction 
 on 
 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is 
 going on - 
 two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 
 
 73, 
 Tim K3LR 
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
 Tim Duffy 
 Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM 
 To: topband@contesting.com 
 Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 
 
 I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier 
 on 
 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. 
 
 It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this 
 evening 
 
 Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 
 
 
 
 73, 
 
 Tim K3LR 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector 
 
 _ 
 Topband Reflector 
 




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Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Charlie Cunningham
Thanks, Gary

Well, there are many vessels from Japan, Korea, US and Canada (and others)
that operate out there! 

Yes, unfortunate that we have intruders in our bands!

73,
Charlie,K4OTV


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Smith
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:36 AM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. The link Frank posted mentions 
continuous operation which is something I hadn't experienced on 160. 
What is amazing to me is how loud their signals are compared to other 
signals I hear on the band. I understand its their saltwater location 
but that's pretty much what I have too and if I was at 100 watts I 
doubt I'd be as loud as those 3W-8W transmitters. Since they're on 
frequencies that are outside the 1900-1999Khz they are most likely 
from some foreign ported ship operating close to our shore. 
Aggravating they make any of those bouys designed to operate in ham 
bands at all.

73,
Gary
KA1J
  
 BTW, Gary,
 
 When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the
 signals peaked
 at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your
 due south
 bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or
 SC)
 
 73, 
 Charlie, K4OTV


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protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Mike Waters
Charlie,

My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's
a will, there's often a way.  :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Charlie Cunningham 
charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote:


 I'm impressed with the directional resolution available to some folks on
 this reflector!

_
Topband Reflector


Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Tom W8JI
My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where 
there's

a will, there's often a way.  :-)


Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several 
times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to 
exaggerate ability to determine direction.


It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without 
either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop 
antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 
180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an 
interferometer of normal receiving antennas.


An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and 
good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees.


Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees.

Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 
degrees.


A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear 
spot and properly constructed.


An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees.

A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the 
clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees.


My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 
feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with 
good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer 
against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the 
directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England.


When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, 
and not the absolute numbers. 


_
Topband Reflector


Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Don Kirk
OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is
magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the
past).  I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in
the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported
(what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is
using when he reports a heading).

15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England
states...  Same problem out in the Northwest US, but
opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees.

Don (wd8dsb)


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote:

 My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's
 a will, there's often a way.  :-)


 Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before
 several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common
 to exaggerate ability to determine direction.

 It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without
 either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop
 antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be
 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an
 interferometer of normal receiving antennas.

 An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and
 good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees.

 Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees.

 Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20
 degrees.

 A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear
 spot and properly constructed.

 An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees.

 A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the
 clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees.

 My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500
 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with
 good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer
 against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the
 directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England.

 When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas,
 and not the absolute numbers.
 _
 Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector


Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Tom W8JI

OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is
magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the
past).  I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in
the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported
(what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is
using when he reports a heading).



The best procedure is to use multiple stations with known locations to 
calibrate, and use a movable null.


For example, if I use a DXE NCC-1  as a combiner for interferometer use, I 
can calibrate from W1AW and other ham stations in that general area. I can 
then easily resolve directions that are just 2 degrees apart in heading at 
that distance.


Without that, just using the eight circle, I cannot really resolve middle NY 
from eastern Mass.


I think as the FCC becomes less and less involved, and as their DF sites 
continue to deteriorate, hams may have to pick up their own system.


The important point of this is that bearings have tolerances, sometimes very 
wide tolerances, so any plots should look like V's with ranges rather than 
lines.


The best thing is always to get data from people with right angle lines, 
especially those close to the problem, and to look at the plots based on the 
real resolution of each plot. Some might be 120 degrees wide, and very few 
will be narrower than 20-30 degrees. 


_
Topband Reflector


Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Charlie Cunningham
Hi, Don

Well, we can improve on that by using a solar determination of true North.
The way  that I do it for my antenna arrays is:

1.0  Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your
location on the day that you are going to make the determination.

2.0  Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon.

3.0  At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by
plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North.
(Best done on sunny day of course!)

73.
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:31 AM
To: Tom W8JI
Cc: topband
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is
magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the
past).  I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in
the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported
(what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is
using when he reports a heading).

15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England
states...  Same problem out in the Northwest US, but
opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees.

Don (wd8dsb)


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote:

 My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where
there's
 a will, there's often a way.  :-)


 Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before
 several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common
 to exaggerate ability to determine direction.

 It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without
 either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop
 antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to
be
 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an
 interferometer of normal receiving antennas.

 An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and
 good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees.

 Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35
degrees.

 Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20
 degrees.

 A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear
 spot and properly constructed.

 An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees.

 A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the
 clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees.

 My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500
 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees
with
 good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer
 against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the
 directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England.

 When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas,
 and not the absolute numbers.
 _
 Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector


Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Mike Waters
Or a compass laying on a camera tripod, and an up-to-date magnetic
declination map (Google it).

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Charlie Cunningham 
charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote:

  ... by using a solar determination of true North.
 The way  that I do it for my antenna arrays is:

 1.0  Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for
 your
 location on the day that you are going to make the determination.

 2.0  Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon.

 3.0  At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by
 plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North.
 (Best done on sunny day of course!)

_
Topband Reflector


Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

2013-11-01 Thread Grant Saviers
How about a compass and declination map?  A bit simpler  good enough 
+/- 2 degrees.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/WMM/image.shtml

The standard for course plots on nautical charts is the letter T for 
true or M for magnetic after the degrees number and then an arrow to 
indicate for which direction the marking is valid.  Of course, for 
antennas we really never care about magnetic headings so the only T 
makes sense to quote.


Grant KZ1W

On 11/1/2013 10:12 AM, Charlie Cunningham wrote:

Hi, Don

Well, we can improve on that by using a solar determination of true North.
The way  that I do it for my antenna arrays is:

1.0  Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your
location on the day that you are going to make the determination.

2.0  Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon.

3.0  At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by
plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North.
(Best done on sunny day of course!)

73.
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:31 AM
To: Tom W8JI
Cc: topband
Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW

OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is
magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the
past).  I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in
the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported
(what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is
using when he reports a heading).

15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England
states...  Same problem out in the Northwest US, but
opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees.

Don (wd8dsb)


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote:


My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where

there's

a will, there's often a way.  :-)


Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before
several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common
to exaggerate ability to determine direction.

It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without
either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop
antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to

be

180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an
interferometer of normal receiving antennas.

An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and
good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees.

Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35

degrees.

Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20
degrees.

A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear
spot and properly constructed.

An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees.

A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the
clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees.

My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500
feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees

with

good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer
against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the
directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England.

When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas,
and not the absolute numbers.
_
Topband Reflector


_
Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector



_
Topband Reflector