Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Steve Ireland]

Hi Jim

The omission of  the words ‘inverted vee’ in front of ‘dipole’ for Tom W8JI’s 
antenna up 300 feet high was a slip of the keyboard at my end! I used to work 
Tom regularly back when he had the antenna up and helped him with comparative 
signal reports. 

When he was doing signal comparisons, Tom never used to name the particular 
antenna he was using at any one time, so as to remove the possibility of any 
psychological bias that might occur if the station he was working happened to 
favour a particular type of antenna.  Each antenna Tom used was only referred 
to as ‘Antenna 1’ or ‘Antenna 2’ and he told me he also used to switch the 
designations around.

As you say, an inverted-vee dipole is definitely inferior to a flat-top dipole. 
From memory, I recall John ON4UN found by modelling that a 90 degree inverted 
vee in the broadside direction was around 1 to 1.5dB down on a flat top dipole 
at the same height as the inverted vee’s apex – and the radiation angle of the 
latter was slightly higher, owing to average height of the latter being less. 

While 1 to 1.5dB might not mean much on the upper bands, on noisy 160m it might 
make the difference in being above (or below) the noise at a DX station. 

All that being said, my main point was that a combination of latitude 
(reasonable high) and low soil conductivity in south-west VK6 mean that the 
losses of predominantly vertically polarised antennas are such that a 
predominantly horizontally-polarised antenna is better.  My present 
inverted-vee dipole has its apex at 90 feet, but I’d swap it like a shot for a 
flat-top at 90’ if the yard-size here allowed.  

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ (also G3ZZD and VY2LF)

##  W8JI  never had a dipole up  300 ft.   He had an inverted  VEEup  300 
ft.  I believe the enclosed angle was far less than 90 degrees. 
You require  2 x 300  ft towers to string up a 160m dipole at  a height of 300 
ft.  W8JI  only had  1 x  300 ft tower at the time.  
  Tom,  N6BT is adamant that a rotary dipole  will outperform an inverted vee  
by 6 db, with the apex of the Vee  at the same height as the rotary  dipole. 
N6BT  also claimed the  rotary dipole would have a 14 db  FS on DX signals. 

##  Years ago,  I heard these 2  fellows on from Oregon. One of them had up his 
new  F12  160m  rotary dipole,  mounted on top of his  120 ft tower. 
This  160m rotary dipole  was aprx 102 ft long, and used  LL wires both  
above..and below the main trunk section.  The fellow was using a MFJ-259
at the time, and those things  wont work below  1800 khz.   The rotary dipole 
was resonant below  1800 khz.They finally got it sorted out..and resonated 
it 
at the low end of 160m band.   2:1  SWR BW  was aprx   18 khz.  IE:  + /-  9 
khz..   Relays  have to be used to  switch band segments about.   
The very 1st  DX station he worked was a  4X4  on CW. go figure.   Trying 
to work  EU  from the west coast  on  160M is a tough nut to crack. 

##  If using an inverted vee..and say oriented N-S. then move the legs  so 
they are now  E-W,   I never saw any difference, minor at best, but that was on 
80m,
and also 40m. and in both cases, the re-orientation of the legs was done 
fairly quickly.   I believe the baluns I used at the time were flaky at best... 
 BN-86  junk. 

##  Other than the fellow in ORE,  I never heard about anybody else using a 
loaded rotary dipole on 160m.   I have heard several rotary dipoles on both 80m 
 and also 40m.
The 80m rotary dipoles that I have heard on the air  had pretty substantial 
signals if oriented broadside in my direction.   When the bands were lousy, and 
signals were weak, the
fellows with the 80m rotary dipoles were  way ahead of the fellows with the 
inverted vees. I never did find out what the RX noise level was like with 
the 160m  rotary   dipole 
in Ore.  

Jim   VE7RF   


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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Jim Thomson]

Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2018 00:23:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: donov...@starpower.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles


www.arrl.org/news/storm-takes-down-amateur-radio-contest-club-towers-in-northern-europe

## Per the OH8X  current website, they still have several towers up.   They 
think the 
rotating 300 ft tower that came crashing down in a windstorm, was caused by a 
failure
of the auto mechanism, that auto orients the 5 el  80m yagi, and the  3 el 160M 
yagi below it,
in high winds http://www.radioarcala.com


##  The idea was to orient the yagis, such that minimum  torque was  applied to 
the tower itself. 
Basicly,  the  tower twisted itself apart.   The issue with the rotating towers 
 is, the tower is free
to twist all it wants.  The  guy wires terminate on the huge guy rings, not the 
tower itself.Think
of it as a 300  ft long drive shaft, fixed at the bottom end, and free  to 
twist at the top end.   It
wound up like a pretzel. 

Jim   VE7RF
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[donovanf]

www.arrl.org/news/storm-takes-down-amateur-radio-contest-club-towers-in-northern-europe
 

- Original Message -

From: "Merv Schweigert via Topband" <topband@contesting.com> 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 9:33:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles 

Not sure how long they were on, but I remember it was the years of 
decent propagation 
My experience hearing them was at the sunrise and sunset time to KH6. 
I could hear many OH 
stations and at no time was OH8X signal better than the other OH stations, 
many OH were stronger. If I remember by the next season the antenna was 
destroyed 
by the weather. So it seemed to be short lived. 
That was in 2008 and I worked them both sunrise and sunset times. 
73 Merv K9FD/KH6 


> Does anyone know when OH8X was active on 160? The RBN archive goes back to 
> 2009, snd it would be fairly easy to mine the archive. 
> 73 Pete N4ZR 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 
> 
>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 3:50 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband 
>> <topband@contesting.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> Another thought on this. 
>> 
>> 
>> I visited W8JI's station some years ago where had the usual 4 square for 160 
>> and also an inverted Vee at around 300 feet. He told me that the inverted 
>> Vee seldom played as good as or better than the 4 square The 4 square was 
>> usually much better. 
>> 
>> 
>> Bill K4XS/KH7XS 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message----- 
>> From: Greg - ZL3IX <zl...@inet.net.nz> 
>> To: topband <topband@contesting.com> 
>> Sent: Fri, Mar 30, 2018 7:34 pm 
>> Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles 
>> 
>> Hi Carl, 
>> 
>> OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in 
>> particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of 
>> exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna 
>> had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can 
>> certainly draw inferences from that! 
>> 
>> In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations 
>> with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any 
>> propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas 
>> to benefit. 
>> 
>> Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
>> antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them. 
>> 
>> 73, Greg, ZL3IX 
>>> It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time 
>>> so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It 
>>> would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> _ 
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>> 
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Merv Schweigert via Topband]

Not sure how long they were on,  but I remember it was the years of 
decent propagation
My experience hearing them was at the sunrise and sunset time to KH6.   
I could hear many OH

stations and at no time was OH8X signal  better than the other OH stations,
many OH were stronger.  If I remember by the next season the antenna was 
destroyed

by the weather.  So it seemed to be short lived.
That was in 2008 and I worked them both sunrise and  sunset times.
73 Merv K9FD/KH6



Does anyone know when OH8X was active on 160? The RBN archive goes back to 
2009, snd it would be fairly easy to mine the archive.
73 Pete N4ZR

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 30, 2018, at 3:50 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband <topband@contesting.com> 
wrote:


Another thought on this.


I visited W8JI's station some years ago where had the usual 4 square for 160 
and also an inverted Vee at around 300 feet.  He told me that the inverted Vee 
seldom played as good as or better than the 4 square  The 4 square was usually 
much better.


Bill K4XS/KH7XS



-Original Message-
From: Greg - ZL3IX <zl...@inet.net.nz>
To: topband <topband@contesting.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 30, 2018 7:34 pm
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in
particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of
exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna
had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can
certainly draw inferences from that!

In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations
with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any
propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas
to benefit.

Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.

73, Greg, ZL3IX

It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.



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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Pete]

Does anyone know when OH8X was active on 160? The RBN archive goes back to 
2009, snd it would be fairly easy to mine the archive. 
73 Pete N4ZR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 30, 2018, at 3:50 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband 
> <topband@contesting.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Another thought on this.
> 
> 
> I visited W8JI's station some years ago where had the usual 4 square for 160 
> and also an inverted Vee at around 300 feet.  He told me that the inverted 
> Vee seldom played as good as or better than the 4 square  The 4 square was 
> usually much better.
> 
> 
> Bill K4XS/KH7XS
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Greg - ZL3IX <zl...@inet.net.nz>
> To: topband <topband@contesting.com>
> Sent: Fri, Mar 30, 2018 7:34 pm
> Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles
> 
> Hi Carl,
> 
> OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in 
> particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of 
> exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna 
> had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can 
> certainly draw inferences from that!
> 
> In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations 
> with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any 
> propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas 
> to benefit.
> 
> Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
> antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.
> 
> 73, Greg, ZL3IX
>> It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
>> so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
>> would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Lee STRAHAN]

  Jimmy Sullivan W7EJ  (SK) had a rotary dipole up for 160 meters at his CN2R 
station. You can still see the antenna as his CN2R site is still up. It came 
down in a wind storm in 2009, and I have no real knowledge of how well it 
worked but one might contact Dick W7ZR for information as he did some 
contesting from there. Also Jimmy's logs are still on site as well. A brief 
look showed it worked pretty well. Morocco is about 32 degrees North. YMMV
Lee   K7TJR

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thomson
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 10:15 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 23:15:00 +0800
From: "Steve Ireland" <vk...@arach.net.au>
To: <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarisation and elevation angles


http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Jim Thomson]

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 23:15:00 +0800
From: "Steve Ireland" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarisation and elevation angles


http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[GEORGE WALLNER]

Greg,
In concert with HA7RY (Tomi), one night I was monitoring OH8X while the 
monster Yagi was still up. At Tomi's QTH (in Hungary) it was very loud. I 
could barely copy it in FL.
I worked EU stations that were much stronger. I think the antenna was too 
low and there was too much high-angle radiation. If they just would have 
made it vertical...

73,
George.
AA7JV

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 08:33:17 +1300
 Greg - ZL3IX  wrote:

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in particular OH. 
I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of exactly when they were 
QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna had produced results, they would 
have been a lot more active. We can certainly draw inferences from that!

In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations with 
vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any propagation at 
all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas to benefit.

Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.

73, Greg, ZL3IX

It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.


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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

Another thought on this.


I visited W8JI's station some years ago where had the usual 4 square for 160 
and also an inverted Vee at around 300 feet.  He told me that the inverted Vee 
seldom played as good as or better than the 4 square  The 4 square was usually 
much better.


Bill K4XS/KH7XS



-Original Message-
From: Greg - ZL3IX <zl...@inet.net.nz>
To: topband <topband@contesting.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 30, 2018 7:34 pm
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in 
particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of 
exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna 
had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can 
certainly draw inferences from that!

In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations 
with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any 
propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas 
to benefit.

Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.

73, Greg, ZL3IX
> It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
> so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
> would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.
>
>

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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Greg - ZL3IX]

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in 
particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of 
exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna 
had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can 
certainly draw inferences from that!


In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations 
with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any 
propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas 
to benefit.


Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.


73, Greg, ZL3IX

It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[donovanf]

Hi Luke, 


What I should have said is that propagation towards much lower latitudes 
doesn't suffer from the polarization related issues that high latitude 
paths suffer from. 


My thinking suffers from northern hemisphere biases! 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "VK3HJ" <vk3hj_l...@barefoothorse.com.au> 
To: "topBand List" <topband@contesting.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 5:04:13 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles 



-Original Message- 
From: donov...@starpower.net 

"160 meter long distance propagation is much more efficient to the south " 


Do you mean "between higher latitudes and lower latitudes"? 

To my south there are only penguins, and Tasmanians. 

Luke VK3HJ 
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[VK3HJ]

-Original Message- 
From: donov...@starpower.net 


"160 meter long distance propagation is much more efficient to the south "


Do you mean "between higher latitudes and lower latitudes"?

To my south there are only penguins, and Tasmanians.

Luke VK3HJ
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[donovanf]

Hi Mark, 


Very true on the HF bands. but not true on 160 meters at mid to 
high latitudes. 



On 160 meters both entry and exit polarization tend to be vertically 
polarized at mid to high latitudes. This also applies to the exit from 
the ionosphere and re-entry into the ionosphere of intermediate hops 
over land and sea at mid to high latitudes. 


Horizontal polarization is much more efficiently reflected by intermediate 
hops over land, both polarizations are efficiently reflected over sea. 
Unfortunately, horizontal polarization doesn't exit and re-enter the ionosphere 
efficiently on 160 meters at mid to high latitudes, so most of the energy 
re-entering the ionosphere after an intermediate hop is inefficiently 
reflected vertical polarization at mid and high latitudes. 


This means that long distance propagation over the North Atlantic 
on 160 meters is much more efficient from W1 and VE1 where the first 
intermediate hop is over the Atlantic Ocean, while propagation from the 
other US and VE call areas has its first hop over a much less efficient land. 


160 meter long distance propagation is much more efficient to the south 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark K3MSB" <mark.k3...@gmail.com> 
To: "Carl Luetzelschwab" <carlluetzelsch...@gmail.com> 
Cc: "topBand List" <topband@contesting.com> 
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 10:20:11 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles 

Carl 

I learned that polarization is not predictable after the first ionospheric 
bounce. 

73 Mark K3MSB 

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Carl Luetzelschwab < 
carlluetzelsch...@gmail.com> wrote: 

> Polarization - As Jerry K4SAV stated, the electron gyro-frequency plays an 
> important role on 160m since our ionosphere is immersed in a magnetic field 
> - it also affects ionospheric absorption and refraction. For those of us at 
> mid to high latitudes, vertical polarization on 160m is *theoretically* 
> optimum since it couples the most energy to the limiting polarization at 
> the entrance to the ionosphere. I don't understand Mark K3MSB's comment 
> about the polarization terms disappearing unless it has to do with that 
> fact that the polarization going up to the ionosphere has nothing to do 
> with the polarization going thru the ionosphere (which is dictated by the 
> ionosphere). 
> 
> Elevation angles - Ray tracing shows that elevation angles up to about 10 
> degrees are E hops since there is still enough E region ionization at night 
> to refract 160m. I don't know how important these E hops are - probably 
> okay for short distance, but the losses (absorption and ground reflection) 
> add up quickly for the longer distances. Above 15 degrees or so we get F 
> hops. From 10-15 degrees is where ducting occurs in the electron density 
> valley above the nighttime E region. Ducting in the valley likely requires 
> shallow angles. But when a signal gets dumped out of the duct, that 
> suggests a higher down-coming angle. 
> 
> K4SAV said it best: ". . . and the real world on 160 is very complicated." 
> 
> Carl K9LA 
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Carl Luetzelschwab]

Mark,

> I learned that polarization is not predictable after the first
ionospheric bounce.

Theoretically, polarization is well-defined as an electromagnetic wave
progresses thru the ionosphere. What's important is the "limiting"
polarization at the entry and exit points of the ionosphere, and our job is
to best match our antennas to the limiting polarization to couple the most
energy into the ordinary wave or the extraordinary and couple the most
down-coming energy into our receive antenna. On 3.5 MHz and higher, the
limiting polarization is essentially circular, so your antenna's
polarization is not real important as both waves propagate with similar
absorption and refraction. But on 160m, because of being close to the
electron gyro-frequency, the extraordinary wave suffers significantly more
absorption. Thus you better make sure you couple the most energy to the
ordinary wave on 160m - which is vertical for those at mid to high
latitudes.

It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.

Of course the limiting polarization will vary as the ionosphere varies
diurnally and day-to-day. But still, in general, most of us at mid to high
latitudes should use vertical polarization on 160m. For those near the
equator (like the W4s), when they work 160m long path to the southeast thru
southwest, their entry and exit points are near the equator, where
horizontal polarization should be optimum. Those stations down south using
HWFs (horizontal Waller flags) for receive seem to hear long path very
well. It would be interesting to see what happens if they used horizontal
antennas for transmit.

Carl K9LA
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Mark K3MSB]

Carl

I learned that polarization is not predictable after the first ionospheric
bounce.

 73 Mark K3MSB

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Carl Luetzelschwab <
carlluetzelsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Polarization - As Jerry K4SAV stated, the electron gyro-frequency plays an
> important role on 160m since our ionosphere is immersed in a magnetic field
> - it also affects ionospheric absorption and refraction. For those of us at
> mid to high latitudes, vertical polarization on 160m is *theoretically*
> optimum since it couples the most energy to the limiting polarization at
> the entrance to the ionosphere. I don't understand Mark K3MSB's comment
> about the polarization terms disappearing unless it has to do with that
> fact that the polarization going up to the ionosphere has nothing to do
> with the polarization going thru the ionosphere (which is dictated by the
> ionosphere).
>
> Elevation angles - Ray tracing shows that elevation angles up to about 10
> degrees are E hops since there is still enough E region ionization at night
> to refract 160m. I don't know how important these E hops are - probably
> okay for short distance, but the losses (absorption and ground reflection)
> add up quickly for the longer distances. Above 15 degrees or so we get F
> hops. From 10-15 degrees is where ducting occurs in the electron density
> valley above the nighttime E region. Ducting in the valley likely requires
> shallow angles. But when a signal gets dumped out of the duct, that
> suggests a higher down-coming angle.
>
> K4SAV said it best: ". . . and the real world on 160 is very complicated."
>
> Carl K9LA
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>
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Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Carl Luetzelschwab]

Polarization - As Jerry K4SAV stated, the electron gyro-frequency plays an
important role on 160m since our ionosphere is immersed in a magnetic field
- it also affects ionospheric absorption and refraction. For those of us at
mid to high latitudes, vertical polarization on 160m is *theoretically*
optimum since it couples the most energy to the limiting polarization at
the entrance to the ionosphere. I don't understand Mark K3MSB's comment
about the polarization terms disappearing unless it has to do with that
fact that the polarization going up to the ionosphere has nothing to do
with the polarization going thru the ionosphere (which is dictated by the
ionosphere).

Elevation angles - Ray tracing shows that elevation angles up to about 10
degrees are E hops since there is still enough E region ionization at night
to refract 160m. I don't know how important these E hops are - probably
okay for short distance, but the losses (absorption and ground reflection)
add up quickly for the longer distances. Above 15 degrees or so we get F
hops. From 10-15 degrees is where ducting occurs in the electron density
valley above the nighttime E region. Ducting in the valley likely requires
shallow angles. But when a signal gets dumped out of the duct, that
suggests a higher down-coming angle.

K4SAV said it best: ". . . and the real world on 160 is very complicated."

Carl K9LA
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