Re: Topband: Brave New World
This wouldn't be much of a problem if the callsign goes with the station, not the operator. The list operations were indeed like shooting fish in a barrel, but at least (it seemed like) everyone used their own gun and their own bullets...i.e., their own station callsign, from their own station. A guest op at my station uses my station callsign, not his. If he's located 100 or 1000 miles away and operates my station remotely, it will be with my station callsign, not his and he'd not gain any advantage that way. This remote station controversy would likely go away under those circumstances, and I for one wouldn't mind. 73, Jerry K3BZ On 2/26/2015 2:18 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: On 2015-02-26, at 2:14 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: On 2/26/2015 11:41 AM, Charlie wrote: Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and loaded. This has already happened in the past long before the internet. It was called the DX Net... There used to be list takers for DX stations, too, as I recall---and I can remember proficient DX'ers likening such a practice to ...shooting fish in a barrel. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
At NP2P (N2TTA opp. my remote contest setup) I use Remote Rig and both the Icom 7100 and the Kenwood TS-2000 is an SO2R configuration. Both radios have a complete remote control heads at the location of the operator that is as good as being behind that actual radio. An on screen via Team Viewer controls the MFJ-RCS-12 band switch which also has a remote control panel on screen, EA4TX antenna rotator to control my Ham IV, and IP Power from control of the External TX RX 4 positions Beverage's when needed. My Alpha87A is automatic and there is also a remote control panel on the screen visible to the remote op for power output and band verification etc. It is a very easy and simple setup with the operator inside his apartment in Brooklyn, NY running QSO's at 40wpm and without a glitch or hiccup. The latency from here to there is 120ms via a DSL which was recently changed to their phone/cable/internet all in one product called EVO. I use a private IP address but DHCP also works. I no longer have to use filters on the twisted pair nor worry about RF shutting down the internet, I do have, however, fiber end to end from here to NYC. Fiber is a bit slower than the speed of light. But I have found WI-Max max services to be all over the ball park especially when users on my service sector are watching 4 movies at a time or heavy into video games. My DSL is 1.5 meg up and 1.5 meg down all the time and overtime and this is susfficient. The consistency of this ISP is what makes a big difference. It can cost 1000's of dollars for travel, food and lodging, to a contest location. So it is certain we will see more remote control in the future. I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 8:05 AM, D Rodman MD wrote: I receive the list archived and this makes replying to individual posts difficult. It seems to me W0BTU summed it up succinctly. There are time delays and depending on the setup, it it varies from no factor to disabling. I don't know what others have for remote stations. I can tell you, I have about the most comprehensive one in the world. I have been doing it, off and on, for about 10 to 12 years. Most recently, I purchased a K3, a remote head and have been using RemoteRig. I would say it is not too bad. Two issues that bother me are the lack of being able to use the key input on the remote head. This is a software issue. The second is latency. If the latency varies, CW becomes impossible. That is right, impossible. If the latency stays constant, it will work. I had my remote K3 out of the country in January. From my hotel, I was able from time to time use it and make contacts. However, watching the latency vary from 0.22 to over 0.3 sec at times made QSO's difficult. I was able to work some SSB but my audio would drop out from time to time and leave 5-6 words missing. Not too bad for a native English speaking station but second language stations were clearly questioning what was going on. CW was impossible. Locally, the system works pretty well. Look, this is a serious leap of faith. You are not there. You can't hear or feel changes in the environment. Unfamiliarity with equipment can lead to guest operators making serious mistakes in operating routines or sequences and this leads to failure. Last year during the ARRL SSB contest, I ruined one of my SteppIR antennas by transmitting during a band change. No I don't have the transmitter locked out. A simple mistake. I am not saying this is not ready for prime time, but there are many issues to be considered. As to what the ARRL says or does not say, we should not be surprised. Anytime they can propagandize ham radio with little or no downside, they will. Otherwise, the league remains strangely silent on many controversial or political circumstances. Good luck guys. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Shoot I was wondering when there was going to be a CW operation from P5 since Rodman goes over all the time, thinking top band guys may have an edge :o) Merv K9FD/KH6 I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Let's put this into context. This is not the end of the world. Amateur Radio is a hobby and like any hobby has various facets. Different people have various ideas of what the hobby should be. Some hams are or imagine themselves to be experimenters, engineers, metalworkers, awards collectors, country collectors, traffic policemen, radio broadcasters, military radio operators, historians, first responders, survivalists, adventurers or equipment flippers. (Have I missed anything?) I've heard complaints about the hobby not being what is used to be since I started in the hobby in the 1960's. This is usually out of envy so I take no stock it this argument. The hobby has not changed but the technology had radically changed. I started in the hobby because of the fascination of communicating through the either without using and any other communications infrastructure. I like to build equipment and operate without depending on external communication aids such as spotters, DX clusters, online propagation forecasts, text messaging or the internet. I presently live on an acre plot which has given me the ability to put up an Inverted V to effectively operate on 160 meters. I am a pragmatist. I am not getting any younger and my wife wants to downsize. I may end up in a place where I cannot put up effective antennas so I may consider remote operation as an option. We all have health issues and we may end up in retirement communities or assisted living so remote operation can enable me to enjoy the hobby. We should consider the new technology as a way of extending our hobby. Mike N2MS -Original Message- Hi Guys, Is the day very far off in the distant future when the physical human element won't even be needed at a radio station on the eve of a contest...? Just programme the event into the computer, hook it up to the rig...and then go off to bed. The next day you meander down to the shack, coffee in hand rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, to learn that in your absence, your station made some 5,000 QSOs, AND DXCC, twice over! Remember Dr. DX of the 1980's...? Shades of days yet to come---if , indeed, those days are not here already. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur---on second thought, who cares? The dinosaurs ruled the earth for untold millions of years, to man's single million---just as insurance companies lawyers are spelling the demise of kids' playground toys and group get-togethers, computers will spell the end of the very essence that makes Ham radio fun. At least to dinosaurs like yours truly, anyway. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
CW is much more popular since the FCC removed the requirement for code.Think about that for a minute. People have are trying and using CW much more now that it is not forced on them. Ham Radio did not die that day. The bands are not filled with anymore LIDS than they were before that day. The no code license has also allowed a huge number of people to work in their local communities interfacing with their local emergency services departments, Red Cross, hospitals etc. Most of these people we hardly hear about. A remote contact requires radio and rf and both ends of the contact. My remote, which I don't have tells my transmitter to xmit then I receive. The station on the other end is also using RF. Remote radio is simply an extension of the mic cord, keyer cord and headphones. We are not talking about working people on the internet without RF such as chat rooms. Everything was always better in the old days right? I don't think so. Maybe for some of you guys that are 20 years older than me. Interfacing with computers, remote operation, the amazing work of weak signal processing, SteppIR antennas, 8 element circle shortened rcv arrays and rtty and cw decoding and spotting are very interesting to me. They keep me interested in the hobby. I enjoy chasing new ones and breaking pileups. People demand new things to work so people have to dream up new countries ie sand bars and rocks that require scaffolding to operate from to keep the people happy. We have created a bunch of rules to allow unihabited locations such as BS7, KP1, KP5 and many more to become countries. You don't like remote operation. I don't like creating countries that don't really exist just so I have another new one to work. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 8:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. It was late in 2006 when it c ame out that the FCC would remove the CW requirement for HF operation in early 2007 . Actua lly, I had expected it to happen, figured it was inevitable and had come to grips. But the President of our local Radio club anounced it on the reflector to the membership with the message title A Chris tmas gift to all. Mostly I am a laid-back guy, but somehow this made me see red. Why? Back in the day, when a fellow ham would screw up, we would kid him with where'd you get your license, out of a Cracker Jack Box? (or if you are Firesignian in nature, a Cracker Back Jox) Well, in this case, at least the guy would have had to buy the box of Cracker Jack! It was the idea that a HF Amateur Radio license should be a gift that stuck in my craw. This also became tinged with sadness as I realized that the powers that be had come to the (probably correct) conclusion that people would no longer see an Amateur Radio lic ense as being worth putting in some effort for and would only deign to be licensed if it was all but given to them. BTW, this is not intended as a you kids get off my lawn kind of rant, just a statement on how it is. Ham radio will go on, but the glory days as we knew them are pretty much the province of us veteran hams . That shouldn't stop us from enjoying it as we have been doing or welcoming the new hams that get what we do. I just doubt that all that many future hams will look at ham radio as we do. They will find their own ways and interests, but the romance of putting together their own station to work some far away island through the noise on top band will probably (and, I guess, understandingly) elude them in a time where you can walk down the street talking to your buddy in Australia on your smart phone, rent a few minutes on a remote superstation to work the latest Dxpedition, or operate from a big multi-multi contest station without leaving your apartment. Best, Kevin - Original Message - From: Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:05:09 PM Subject: Topband: Brave New World Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On 2/26/2015 9:37 AM, mstang...@comcast.net wrote: Let's put this into context. This is not the end of the world. It is the creation of a whole new world. One that has opened many doors for people to operate and enjoy ham radio and even extend their ability to radio in their older years. Where exactly is the problem? How has remote radio impacted YOU in a negative way. Please site examples with details and data.. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. No offense but I suggest you get some more exciting radio equipment to run. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Herb, I understand your frustration with your call sign screw ups. I get the same thing from time to time using a VA prefix. I worked North Korea on both 10 and 15m, but the 15m contact was no where to be found, nothing even close. That and other screw ups has taught me to make sure I am in the log, if I really need that country or band, to make a duplicate contact. I know some will get all bent and twisted out of shape for that practice, but I am in this game to win. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- Doug, How-long is now? There is nothing instant about working North Korea for DXCC. It would take much time and meticulous planning. And some places I worked have been for decades. Actually waiting for and working BS7H and then got that dreaded message I was not in the log...I probably will never ever have another chance work this piece of rock in the South China Sea. There are gunboats nearby to make sure of that. I do not feel entitled to work anything nor even find someone who has access to the BS7H logs and find my call there as/*K4VFZ */which so often occurs even though the op replied with KV4FZ TU How would I ever know what the op put down in the log until it was to late to do anything about it? BTW /*K4VFZ*/ has never been issued as a call but it has over 100 countries already without ever working any of them. It continues to be a struggle and the techologocial advances like the internet, Remote Rig, automatically controlled amps, Steppers, skimmers and the like should never be considered a scourge on our hobby as some try to portray them. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. It was late in 2006 when it c ame out that the FCC would remove the CW requirement for HF operation in early 2007 . Actua lly, I had expected it to happen, figured it was inevitable and had come to grips. But the President of our local Radio club anounced it on the reflector to the membership with the message title A Chris tmas gift to all. Mostly I am a laid-back guy, but somehow this made me see red. Why? Back in the day, when a fellow ham would screw up, we would kid him with where'd you get your license, out of a Cracker Jack Box? (or if you are Firesignian in nature, a Cracker Back Jox) Well, in this case, at least the guy would have had to buy the box of Cracker Jack! It was the idea that a HF Amateur Radio license should be a gift that stuck in my craw. This also became tinged with sadness as I realized that the powers that be had come to the (probably correct) conclusion that people would no longer see an Amateur Radio lic ense as being worth putting in some effort for and would only deign to be licensed if it was all but given to them. BTW, this is not intended as a you kids get off my lawn kind of rant, just a statement on how it is. Ham radio will go on, but the glory days as we knew them are pretty much the province of us veteran hams . That shouldn't stop us from enjoying it as we have been doing or welcoming the new hams that get what we do. I just doubt that all that many future hams will look at ham radio as we do. They will find their own ways and interests, but the romance of putting together their own station to work some far away island through the noise on top band will probably (and, I guess, understandingly) elude them in a time where you can walk down the street talking to your buddy in Australia on your smart phone, rent a few minutes on a remote superstation to work the latest Dxpedition, or operate from a big multi-multi contest station without leaving your apartment. Best, Kevin - Original Message - From: Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:05:09 PM Subject: Topband: Brave New World Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Brave new world?
I don't understand the issue. If the people operating the remote station give their location as the location of that station then what's the problem? Propagation doesn't care where the operator is sitting. Neither does the ability of the operator to work a station. That said, of course if the operator using that remote station uses their home call (i.e. me using N4XD while actually operating a remote station in EU) would be completely wrong and, I believe, illegal. And certainly,in a contest, unacceptable. If I were the sponsor of the contest I'd ban those operators for 3 to 5 years from entering my contest and make it public why. Its not possible for them to claim to have made a mistake. It would have been done knowingly. Ron N4XD _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Oops! Never mind, I get it now. That will teach me to reply to email moments after rolling out of bed... Jim, W1YY/7 -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
This is a good example of the entitlement crowd attitude. They believe that all the DXCC entities need to be available NOW, no waiting. Reaching the top of the honor roll was long term plan that kept us interested in DXing for a lifetime. Now some want it to be just like a mail order degree ... no work and instant gratification. Just like our schools ... no one fails ... everyone passes. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Doug, How-long is now? There is nothing instant about working North Korea for DXCC. It would take much time and meticulous planning. And some places I worked have been for decades. Actually waiting for and working BS7H and then got that dreaded message I was not in the log...I probably will never ever have another chance work this piece of rock in the South China Sea. There are gunboats nearby to make sure of that. I do not feel entitled to work anything nor even find someone who has access to the BS7H logs and find my call there as/*K4VFZ */which so often occurs even though the op replied with KV4FZ TU How would I ever know what the op put down in the log until it was to late to do anything about it? BTW /*K4VFZ*/ has never been issued as a call but it has over 100 countries already without ever working any of them. It continues to be a struggle and the techologocial advances like the internet, Remote Rig, automatically controlled amps, Steppers, skimmers and the like should never be considered a scourge on our hobby as some try to portray them. On 2/26/2015 10:06 AM, Doug Renwick wrote: This is a good example of the entitlement crowd attitude. They believe that all the DXCC entities need to be available NOW, no waiting. Reaching the top of the honor roll was long term plan that kept us interested in DXing for a lifetime. Now some want it to be just like a mail order degree ... no work and instant gratification. Just like our schools ... no one fails ... everyone passes. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Huh? What's that about? Jim W1YY/7 -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Dennis Rodman the former NBA basket ballplayer has free entry in and out of PDRK as a special guest of Kim Yong somanyone who is a rodmanshold get special tratment. Herb, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 9:28 AM, Jim wrote: Huh? What's that about? Jim W1YY/7 -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 9:11 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: At NP2P (N2TTA opp. my remote contest setup) I use Remote Rig and both the Icom 7100 and the Kenwood TS-2000 is an SO2R configuration. Both radios have a complete remote control heads at the location of the operator that is as good as being behind that actual radio. An on screen via Team Viewer controls the MFJ-RCS-12 band switch which also has a remote control panel on screen, EA4TX antenna rotator to control my Ham IV, and IP Power from control of the External TX RX 4 positions Beverage's when needed. My Alpha87A is automatic and there is also a remote control panel on the screen visible to the remote op for power output and band verification etc. It is a very easy and simple setup with the operator inside his apartment in Brooklyn, NY running QSO's at 40wpm and without a glitch or hiccup. The latency from here to there is 120ms via a DSL which was recently changed to their phone/cable/internet all in one product called EVO. I use a private IP address but DHCP also works. I no longer have to use filters on the twisted pair nor worry about RF shutting down the internet, I do have, however, fiber end to end from here to NYC. Fiber is a bit slower than the speed of light. But I have found WI-Max max services to be all over the ball park especially when users on my service sector are watching 4 movies at a time or heavy into video games. My DSL is 1.5 meg up and 1.5 meg down all the time and overtime and this is susfficient. The consistency of this ISP is what makes a big difference. It can cost 1000's of dollars for travel, food and lodging, to a contest location. So it is certain we will see more remote control in the future. I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 8:05 AM, D Rodman MD wrote: I receive the list archived and this makes replying to individual posts difficult. It seems to me W0BTU summed it up succinctly. There are time delays and depending on the setup, it it varies from no factor to disabling. I don't know what others have for remote stations. I can tell you, I have about the most comprehensive one in the world. I have been doing it, off and on, for about 10 to 12 years. Most recently, I purchased a K3, a remote head and have been using RemoteRig. I would say it is not too bad. Two issues that bother me are the lack of being able to use the key input on the remote head. This is a software issue. The second is latency. If the latency varies, CW becomes impossible. That is right, impossible. If the latency stays constant, it will work. I had my remote K3 out of the country in January. From my hotel, I was able from time to time use it and make contacts. However, watching the latency vary from 0.22 to over 0.3 sec at times made QSO's difficult. I was able to work some SSB but my audio would drop out from time to time and leave 5-6 words missing. Not too bad for a native English speaking station but second language stations were clearly questioning what was going on. CW was impossible. Locally, the system works pretty well. Look, this is a serious leap of faith. You are not there. You can't hear or feel changes in the environment. Unfamiliarity with equipment can lead to guest operators making serious mistakes in operating routines or sequences and this leads to failure. Last year during the ARRL SSB contest, I ruined one of my SteppIR antennas by transmitting during a band change. No I don't have the transmitter locked out. A simple mistake. I am not saying this is not ready for prime time, but there are many issues to be considered. As to what the ARRL says or does not say, we should not be surprised. Anytime they can propagandize ham radio with little or no downside, they will. Otherwise, the league remains strangely silent on many controversial or political circumstances. Good luck
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Thu,2/26/2015 7:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. Have you ever visited a multi-transmitter contesting station? Do you have any idea of the engineering it took to build it and make it competitive? We're talking antenna system design, careful engineering and filtering to allow multiple transmitters at high power to not interfere with others at the same QTH, power distribution for those transmitters, an acoustic operating environment that permits all those guys to be running SSB in the same room without going nuts? Do you have any idea of the systems engineering needed to remote a single station? I'm an EE, designed complex audio systems in my professional life. I've looked at what it would take to remote my station and quickly decided that it was WAY too much work. Heck -- it takes much of my time keeping my station running for me to sit in front of. Among other things, you've got to goof-proof the control systems so that you don't fry your gear (and Mr. Rodman described). Multiply that by 5 or 6 stations, and that's a very serious accomplishment. THAT is ham radio. Sitting in front of a radio that you bought, set on a table, and hooked up to an antenna that you bought with pre-made cables that you bought is a lot closer to CB than ham radio. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. No offense but I suggest you get some more exciting radio equipment to run. ...something that buzzes, arcs, sparks, clicks, smells sweet like PCB's, and gives you RF burns would be real radio Otherwise, it is the end of Ham radio for all of us! _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
CW is much more popular since the FCC removed the requirement for the code I'm calling BS on that one. Tune across the CW bands at night. Very little activity compared to 30 or 40 years ago. Of course, I define CW activity as being real CW operating, i.e. ragchewing, handling traffic...certainly not the programmed ur 599 TU 73 junk that many consider to be a QSO. Sorry but that doesn't make the nut. Neither do contests and DX QSOs. Those aren't the real deal, when it comes to CW operating. Anyone can program a gadget or computer to handle that. Count the number of ops working each other with bugs -- you can tell they aren't fakers that way -- then you'll have a better idea of how popular CW is. Answer--it's dying away, probably why Scott Robbins at Vibroplex is getting into other product lines and Ten Tec now calls itself The SSB Company. The handwriting is on the wall. But the real tragedy in eliminating the CW test is that if took away the ability for a beginner to assemble a basic transmitter and use it to communicate on HF. You can certainly still build such a rig, but without the requirement to learn the code to get a license, many won't bother to do either, starting out on 2 m. FM, getting bored and dropping out. Eliminating CW was a big big mistake, but if your bread and butter is fresh meat--new members, new subscriptions, people with money buying new stuff--you probably don't see it that way. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
None taken...my K3 ' s are enough. div Original message /divdivFrom: Rob Atkinson ranchoro...@gmail.com /divdivDate:02/26/2015 10:57 (GMT-06:00) /divdivTo: topband@contesting.com /divdivSubject: Re: Topband: Brave New World /divdiv /div I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. No offense but I suggest you get some more exciting radio equipment to run. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Well, I *don't* understand why people are upset about this. The K4VV crowd operated a station in Virginia that had all it's antennas and all the RX and all the TX on one local property. They reported their logs as VA, USA. That hardly seems a stretch of rules. The rules don't say anything about all operators eating a meal on the property during the contest to qualify. There are no biblical instructions about remote operating. No words from God. Just the rules put down by the contest organizers. The organizers get to interpret their own rules any way they want. Don't like the rules, then vote with your feet. Enough feet leave, they'll change the rules. But some of you are complaining about the most popular contests. Hardly any resounding protest exit going on there. So just what does a right way statement criticizing the contest organizers of a popular contest mean? Might as well say it's unfair to drive on the left side of the road while in Britain. The only possible cheating at K4VV would be that the remote operators used RX that were not at the K4VV site. But if you think about it, the RX with the antennas at K4VV are most likely far better than what the ops had at home. It certainly would be so for me. I would not bother to substitute anything at my site for the antennas and RX at K4VV. Good stations work out all the stuff I could hear at my station in half of the first day. Everybody works them. Working them is no advantage. The winners are made from the stations that work the Q's and mults I can't hear at all at my home station. People have done remote mountain stations for decades, along with legally using them in contests. They used UHF links or telephone lines and it was difficult, expensive. Ready-made equipment for those purposes was not available. Now the internet and galloping progress in circuitry make such schemes available inexpensively. Others will and have posted about people in retirement homes being able to continue their hobby remotely, vastly improving late-year quality of life for long-time hams. You gonna say fine, but you don't get to operate in contests? Come on. Others are complaining that remote stations in good places ruin competition. Really? When was the last time you competed with K3LR, or W3LPL? If anything, a station that can be staffed with anyone with internet access will tend to increase competition for LR and LPL. Travel in winter not needed, room and board for a mob not needed, taking Friday off for travel not needed, etc, etc., will tend to increase on-the-air band-hours in contests. Let's hear a complaint from someone who has a few first place finishes, who thinks cheaters doing remote operating are ruining it for them. But you won't, because they will tell you that the number one factor in their wins was the team's operating acumen (that 27 dB between the ears), butt in chair, and preparation of station ahead of time. I don't hear Tim or Frank D. complaining. Those folks and their operating crowd turn in top scores from anywhere they operate. Therefore, using statistical logic, their main advantage must be in something they carry around with them everywhere, like something in their head. There have been and always will be cheaters who want the acclaim of high scores but who don't want to do the work to make it happen according to the contest organizer's rules. Loading the entire 27 dB between the ears takes WORK, and cheaters hate work. Remote or no remote will make zero difference in that. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. If not by remote, then some other way. Removing remote operation from contests will not encourage cheaters to do the work because they hate work. If anything, the electronic progress of various kinds seems to be INCREASING participation, which helps everyone. Folks will figure out how to diminish the lag problem. And over time will figure a way to do slick operating in spite of what lag remains. It will be neat to do one shift at K4VV from Los Angeles and then another one from North Carolina, with business travel in between. For many that would make a vast improvement in what would have been yet another deadly dreary travel weekend. Get over it. Deal with it. Enjoy the progress. 73, Guy. On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net wrote: Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station- logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Thu,2/26/2015 10:41 AM, Charlie wrote: The serious DX chasers, especially Topband, are faced with a dilemma now. Anyone who wants to pay the $$ can be at the head of the line for a rare one by remoting to a world class station, rather than using his own equipment. Many will elect to do that. I will not be one of them. Nor will I. I agree entirely with your analysis, Charlie. I view the use of a remote station far from my QTH for that sort of advantage as cheating, even though ARRL considers it OK. It is exactly this sort of abuse that gives remote operation a bad name. From NorCal, I had not a snowball's chance in hell of working EP6T on topband -- heck, except for contest stations islands like EA8 and CT3, I haven't heard EU or AF on topband for several years. I did work them on one band, I think it was 15M. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On 2015-02-26, at 2:14 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: On 2/26/2015 11:41 AM, Charlie wrote: Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and loaded. This has already happened in the past long before the internet. It was called the DX Net... There used to be list takers for DX stations, too, as I recall---and I can remember proficient DX'ers likening such a practice to ...shooting fish in a barrel. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Actually Jim old boy, I have. I have been a Frankford RC member for 43 years and have operated from many M/M and M/S stations both in the US and as DX. I have a good idea what goes into it and have helped troubleshoot problems, fix rigs and amps and helped with antennas (from the ground as I get a nosebleed when I stand on a chair, LOL) from various of those stations. I know and have worked with W2VJN who I would say knows a bit about interstation interference, hi hi. I have never built a M/M myself as I don't have the QTH, resources or inclination. Certainly, it's a lot of work and remoting it makes things that much more difficult (though that's much easier now than it was, say, 15 years ago). What's sad in my view, is that in my M/M and M/S experiences, one of the greatest parts was getting together with the ops I was friends with that, due to time, distance or both, I didn't get to see much. The contest was fun, but the comradery was even more so. Just like when you ask most retired Major League players what they miss most, it is the locker room and their ex-teammates. I work in audio myself at CBS-TV in NYC in a television (audio and video) network studio and distribution facility, so I have a bit of an idea what is involved to design a complex facility :) And I make my own cables, thank you. Best, Kevin K3OX - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 12:49:28 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World On Thu,2/26/2015 7:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. Have you ever visited a multi-transmitter contesting station? Do you have any idea of the engineering it took to build it and make it competitive? We're talking antenna system design, careful engineering and filtering to allow multiple transmitters at high power to not interfere with others at the same QTH, power distribution for those transmitters, an acoustic operating environment that permits all those guys to be running SSB in the same room without going nuts? Do you have any idea of the systems engineering needed to remote a single station? I'm an EE, designed complex audio systems in my professional life. I've looked at what it would take to remote my station and quickly decided that it was WAY too much work. Heck -- it takes much of my time keeping my station running for me to sit in front of. Among other things, you've got to goof-proof the control systems so that you don't fry your gear (and Mr. Rodman described). Multiply that by 5 or 6 stations, and that's a very serious accomplishment. THAT is ham radio. Sitting in front of a radio that you bought, set on a table, and hooked up to an antenna that you bought with pre-made cables that you bought is a lot closer to CB than ham radio. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Mike, the difference is that on the DX Net, everyone was not using the same transmitter and receiver. I am not trying to protect my superior location from competition. It is on a rock cliff directly south of Cleveland and 30 miles from KY. It is, on balance, pretty good and I get my share of DX. Those guys over in the eastern panhandle of WV, the suburbs of DC, now they have some prop worth protecting :-) Nowhere in my post did I say users of the paid remote or any remote were abusing the rules. In fact, I said the remotes are in compliance with the DXCC and FCC rules. At some point, if everyone feels they have to spend $$ and use a remote superstation to be competitive in Topband DXing, you will see an impact in the pileups, especially short/marginal openings. As I said, it is what it is. I am generally a supporter of the technology. My view of it is not through rose colored glasses. We will all adjust. 73 Charlie N8RR Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 12:14:09 -0700 From: w...@w0mu.com To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World On 2/26/2015 11:41 AM, Charlie wrote: Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and loaded. This has already happened in the past long before the internet. It was called the DX Net... _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Thu,2/26/2015 11:59 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: What's sad in my view, is that in my M/M and M/S experiences, one of the greatest parts was getting together with the ops I was friends with that, due to time, distance or both, I didn't get to see much. The contest was fun, but the comradery was even more so. Just like when you ask most retired Major League players what they miss most, it is the locker room and their ex-teammates. I agree with that, BUT -- as we get older, move about, have reduced financial resources due to retirement, getting together becomes increasingly difficult. The only reason I go to Dayton and Visalia is to hang out with the guys I've been working on the air for years (and in some cases, since I was a kid). FWIW, during the years I operated at N6RO, there was precious little time to hang out. Everyone's butt was either in the chair or in the sack. The team efforts I've enjoyed were for serious multi-transmitter field setups, like Field Day and county expeditions for the California QSO Party. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Except it is not an ABUSE of the rules. People feel that it is an abuse but it is fully sanctioned by the ARRL. If people want to pay to use a station in NY that is their choice. How does that choice impact any of us? My DXCC and awards are MINE your participation on the bands has nothing to do with me working a station. Maybe you beat me out in a pile up but chances are I am still going to work the DX. We in the west have to work through the east coast wall to Europe and Africa and the Middle East. What exactly is the difference? You don't want to see your built in advantage of location minimized. I worked DX in Montana where I lived in the Summers and I am counting it. My stations, my contacts. I worked DX in a number of locations in Colorado. Once again my contacts, my awards, my dx. I can move to W1 land and still make contacts that count toward my DXCC. Why does anyone care about MY DXCC award. My award has no bearing on your award. So the only pure way or the right way to do it is that if I want an built in advantage, I have to actually spend more money to actually move to W1 land and build a station? Then it magically becomes ok? Remote receivers are probably being used all the time now. No way in the world to catch anyone doing it. There are so many of them. That is not what this discussion is about though. Cheaters will cheat regardless of the rules. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 11:53 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Thu,2/26/2015 10:41 AM, Charlie wrote: The serious DX chasers, especially Topband, are faced with a dilemma now. Anyone who wants to pay the $$ can be at the head of the line for a rare one by remoting to a world class station, rather than using his own equipment. Many will elect to do that. I will not be one of them. Nor will I. I agree entirely with your analysis, Charlie. I view the use of a remote station far from my QTH for that sort of advantage as cheating, even though ARRL considers it OK. It is exactly this sort of abuse that gives remote operation a bad name. From NorCal, I had not a snowball's chance in hell of working EP6T on topband -- heck, except for contest stations islands like EA8 and CT3, I haven't heard EU or AF on topband for several years. I did work them on one band, I think it was 15M. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Yes! Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 10:49 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Thu,2/26/2015 7:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. Have you ever visited a multi-transmitter contesting station? Do you have any idea of the engineering it took to build it and make it competitive? We're talking antenna system design, careful engineering and filtering to allow multiple transmitters at high power to not interfere with others at the same QTH, power distribution for those transmitters, an acoustic operating environment that permits all those guys to be running SSB in the same room without going nuts? Do you have any idea of the systems engineering needed to remote a single station? I'm an EE, designed complex audio systems in my professional life. I've looked at what it would take to remote my station and quickly decided that it was WAY too much work. Heck -- it takes much of my time keeping my station running for me to sit in front of. Among other things, you've got to goof-proof the control systems so that you don't fry your gear (and Mr. Rodman described). Multiply that by 5 or 6 stations, and that's a very serious accomplishment. THAT is ham radio. Sitting in front of a radio that you bought, set on a table, and hooked up to an antenna that you bought with pre-made cables that you bought is a lot closer to CB than ham radio. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I receive the list archived and this makes replying to individual posts difficult. It seems to me W0BTU summed it up succinctly. There are time delays and depending on the setup, it it varies from no factor to disabling. I don't know what others have for remote stations. I can tell you, I have about the most comprehensive one in the world. I have been doing it, off and on, for about 10 to 12 years. Most recently, I purchased a K3, a remote head and have been using RemoteRig. I would say it is not too bad. Two issues that bother me are the lack of being able to use the key input on the remote head. This is a software issue. The second is latency. If the latency varies, CW becomes impossible. That is right, impossible. If the latency stays constant, it will work. I had my remote K3 out of the country in January. From my hotel, I was able from time to time use it and make contacts. However, watching the latency vary from 0.22 to over 0.3 sec at times made QSO's difficult. I was able to work some SSB but my audio would drop out from time to time and leave 5-6 words missing. Not too bad for a native English speaking station but second language stations were clearly questioning what was going on. CW was impossible. Locally, the system works pretty well. Look, this is a serious leap of faith. You are not there. You can't hear or feel changes in the environment. Unfamiliarity with equipment can lead to guest operators making serious mistakes in operating routines or sequences and this leads to failure. Last year during the ARRL SSB contest, I ruined one of my SteppIR antennas by transmitting during a band change. No I don't have the transmitter locked out. A simple mistake. I am not saying this is not ready for prime time, but there are many issues to be considered. As to what the ARRL says or does not say, we should not be surprised. Anytime they can propagandize ham radio with little or no downside, they will. Otherwise, the league remains strangely silent on many controversial or political circumstances. Good luck guys. -- David J Rodman MD Assistant Clinical Professor Department of Ophthalmology SUNY/Buffalo Office 716-857-8654 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Brave New World
Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I just ordered a remoterig control box to allow my K3 to control remote stations. I'm not currently able to set up much of a station and so looking forward to being able to operate in more contests using remote stations. With two young kids my wife is less than thrilled at the idea of me being gone for a 48 hour multi so this is a great enhancement to the hobby. What I like best is that it keeps the spirit of building a competitive station but lets people share in it who would normally just not operate. Since I'm not a DXer I don't have an opinion on whether it should count for DXCC credit. 73, Matt NQ6N/9 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net wrote: This is just the beginning! Dave, W5UN On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station- logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
The contacts were not made via the internet, they were made using a radio controlled over the internet. I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. Glenn WB5TUF -Original Message- From: Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net Sent: Feb 25, 2015 3:26 PM To: Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca, topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
This is just the beginning! Dave, W5UN On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Maybe NET Neutrality will take care of this for us. :-( -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike Waters Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:37 PM To: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Money talks, see full page 8 add in recent QST mags. K2UF -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dave Blaschke, w5un Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:26 PM To: Eddy Swynar; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-i n-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... ...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4299/9178 - Release Date: 02/25/15 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5736 / Virus Database: 4299/9172 - Release Date: 02/24/15 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Well the same thing is going on with the Olympics. Steroids are supposedly banned if you get caught. New ways to hid the use of steroids continues. Eventually the use of steroids will be accepted because the regulators fail. Same thing with ham radio. New ways to cheat are evolving, are being accepted by some and will eventually become the norm. I am not referring to someone who has a remote a few miles from his home. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Most of us are creatures of habit. I Didn't like the change over to SSB, New WARC bands, computer tuned Radios. It goes on and on. Wonder if the Spark transmitter guys wanted to keep the smell of Ozone when tubes came along ? hi ( ; )) We'll survive this some how. 73 Bruce-k1fz www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:41:01 -0500, James Wolf jbw...@comcast.net wrote: Maybe NET Neutrality will take care of this for us. :-( _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Here we go again with this remote discussion. It's like the movie Groundhog Day. Can we QRX this discussion, for, say, 6 months before rehashing the same tired arguments ? 73, Steve, N2IC On 02/25/2015 02:54 PM, Joe K2UF wrote: Money talks, see full page 8 add in recent QST mags. K2UF -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dave Blaschke, w5un Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:26 PM To: Eddy Swynar; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-i n-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... ...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4299/9178 - Release Date: 02/25/15 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5736 / Virus Database: 4299/9172 - Release Date: 02/24/15 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
It is mis leading to say there was no one in the shack implying that the station made the contacts without supervision. Each position was properly and legally remotely controlled. The station was properly identified by each control operator. The control operators did NOT claim they were transmitting from anywhere but the K4VV station location. Remote control does NOT suddenly make the station different. Its transmitter, receiver and antennas are all the same. The stations transmitters were all correctly identifying the station. It simply does NOT MATTER where the person is sitting. The remotely controlled station actually has some small dis advantages over a locally controlled station. There is an additional layer of complexity, and there is propagation delay through the network (Internet) that delivers the control commands the data being transmitted. There also is the dis advantage from the lack of spatial orientation an on site operator has. Controversy over remote control is silly. MIS USE of remote control is MIS USE, and is the fault of the person mis using the capability. It is NOT the fault of remote control. It is the same kind of issue as the 15 KW amplifier in the basement that is hidden from the station operating area. The mis use issue is showing up because it is now easier for someone to deliberately mis use the capability. Before remote control was commonly available, someone wanting to make use of a station in a different country had to either fly there, and illegally use his own call in a foreign country, or, simply persuade someone at the station to make the contact using his callsign, and not that of the station and country. Both acts are illegal and improper, and have absolutely nothing to do with the station itself, and how it is controlled. Blame MIS USE - or call it illegal use - of a stations capability. It REQUIRES the deliberate act of an operator. The STATION does not perform the illegal act, the operator does. There are many examples of illegal use of a station by a person sitting at the station. Those same acts carried out by remote control are no more and no less illegal. (bad English usage, but the point remains) Robin Critchell WA6CDR - Original Message - From: Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net To: Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca; topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 13:13 Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World This is just the beginning! Dave, W5UN On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Sounds like phone sex to menot my bag. You can hang up a picture of whatever partner you like and call them your significant other...just can't substitute for being there. Next big thing will be to drop a package station on Scarborough Reef and have a remote team operate it and call it a DXpedition and hand out DXCC credit for it Time to join AMSAT... Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Hi Guys, Is the day very far off in the distant future when the physical human element won't even be needed at a radio station on the eve of a contest...? Just programme the event into the computer, hook it up to the rig...and then go off to bed. The next day you meander down to the shack, coffee in hand rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, to learn that in your absence, your station made some 5,000 QSOs, AND DXCC, twice over! Remember Dr. DX of the 1980's...? Shades of days yet to come---if , indeed, those days are not here already. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur---on second thought, who cares? The dinosaurs ruled the earth for untold millions of years, to man's single million---just as insurance companies lawyers are spelling the demise of kids' playground toys and group get-togethers, computers will spell the end of the very essence that makes Ham radio fun. At least to dinosaurs like yours truly, anyway. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Bingo. Exactly. And there's one thing that no one has mentioned yet: A station in a contest, that's remotely-controlled over the internet, has the significant disadvantage of time delays. Oh, yes they do. I don't care how big and fast a pipe anyone buys. Those delay times are not only unpredictable, they vary from a fraction of a second to many seconds. Figure it out. Enough of this bickering. Can't we all just get along, and decide to have fun with our own stations? Much ado about nothing. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 4:40 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett w...@w0mu.com wrote: The internet is simply an extension of the mic cord and headphones. How does this affect you anyway? _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Really? Many remotes use K3's with one of the radios being another K3 or scaled back version of a K3. You still sit at the radio and turn the knobs. Remote radio has been around a lot longer than many think. It was only for the very well off to do it. The internet is simply an extension of the mic cord and headphones. How does this affect you anyway? Did K4VV bother you in the contest. If the article was never written you would have never known. I would love to build a contest station in the Caribbean and operate it from home and save the round trip air fare, if it were all legal between countries etc. What exactly did any remote operator do that was wrong? You na sayers sound like a bunch of old ninnies who find things to complain about. Remote radio opens up many doors to people that otherwise could not be involved with HF amateur radio. It keeps people on the air that want to move to townhouses or might have to move into assist living centers but want to stay on the air. Are these not great reason for remote radio or if you have a stroke and have to go to a nursing home you people would just rather the see guy go off the air.That guy might be you very soon. Think about it. Mike W0MU On 2/25/2015 3:24 PM, Cecil wrote: Sounds like phone sex to menot my bag. You can hang up a picture of whatever partner you like and call them your significant other...just can't substitute for being there. Next big thing will be to drop a package station on Scarborough Reef and have a remote team operate it and call it a DXpedition and hand out DXCC credit for it Time to join AMSAT... Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
there will never be a level playing field. as for me,,,Ill simply turn the other cheek all the best for all 73 john w8wej On 2/26/2015 12:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 3:26 PM, john wrote: are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is I have no problem at all with it -- indeed, I have participated in several multi-multi and multi-two operations. It's a lot of fun. I'm simply pointing out that K4VV is no more and no less than another of those team stations. My own station is pretty decent, and can be set up for two operators in Multi-Single or Multi-Two, and I occasionally entertain guest operators. for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices Over the last ten years or so, I've done a lot of research, and published a lot of it, about RFI, -- all the RF noise on the ham bands that makes life miserable for guys in most neighborhoods. 10dB over S9 noise is common in a lot of places. And for at least that long, I've been reading tales of woe from guys whose CCR deed restrictions prohibit them from putting up antennas on their own property! San Francisco is a city of more than a half million, yet there are virtually no HF ham stations within the city. Chicago, a city of more than 3 million, had only four guys (including me) active on HF when I moved from there in 2006, and our stations were quite modest. I think you, and a lot of others who have wailed and wrung your hands about this, have very closed minds. What, exactly, is your problem with those guys, and there are many thousands of them stuck in that situation, operating a station remotely? Should they be relegated to shack on a belt operation on the local repeater? What I DO strongly object to are contest scoring rules for virtually major DX contests that give a 20:1 advantage to the good old boys gathered around the Atlantic basin. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Wed,2/25/2015 3:26 PM, john wrote: are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is I have no problem at all with it -- indeed, I have participated in several multi-multi and multi-two operations. It's a lot of fun. I'm simply pointing out that K4VV is no more and no less than another of those team stations. My own station is pretty decent, and can be set up for two operators in Multi-Single or Multi-Two, and I occasionally entertain guest operators. for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices Over the last ten years or so, I've done a lot of research, and published a lot of it, about RFI, -- all the RF noise on the ham bands that makes life miserable for guys in most neighborhoods. 10dB over S9 noise is common in a lot of places. And for at least that long, I've been reading tales of woe from guys whose CCR deed restrictions prohibit them from putting up antennas on their own property! San Francisco is a city of more than a half million, yet there are virtually no HF ham stations within the city. Chicago, a city of more than 3 million, had only four guys (including me) active on HF when I moved from there in 2006, and our stations were quite modest. I think you, and a lot of others who have wailed and wrung your hands about this, have very closed minds. What, exactly, is your problem with those guys, and there are many thousands of them stuck in that situation, operating a station remotely? Should they be relegated to shack on a belt operation on the local repeater? What I DO strongly object to are contest scoring rules for virtually major DX contests that give a 20:1 advantage to the good old boys gathered around the Atlantic basin. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
It absolutely will, unless the remote guys can pay enough funds to the party in charge to get an exemption, they will be stifled and speeds of the net will decline, have to make it fair ya see. Maybe NET Neutrality will take care of this for us. :-( -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike Waters Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:37 PM To: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband . _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
uh,,, they ,(the operators), are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices dx 73 john w8wej On 2/25/2015 10:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I can tell from reading the Against Messages in this thread that those who are against remote operation have never operated a remote setup. Somewhat like Glenn below .. except in my case it is 1200 miles between my summer home where my station is located and my Winter Home in Florida. I do have the ability to operate my own station remotely. The Latency they call it .. LAG TIME between sending something from the computer and the time my transmitter responds and the lag time when my receiver gets the incoming signal and I get it maybe a couple seconds later.. Did you notice that although that Remote Conest station had some really good operators that the SCORE was a bit over 1/3rd of K3LR's station? Yes we know Tim's station is better with antennas etc... but the good share of the difference is due to this time lag problem. In Conclusion NO remotely operated station like this is ever going to be truly competitive with a bunch of operators with their hand on the knob. And as Glenn and others have said ... it is still a Ham Radio Contact from A Ham Radio Station to another Ham Radio Station. This would be the same as some guy setting in his living room watching TV with his wife while also having a headset on that has wireless earphones and mic ... running some stations on 20M through his own station in the next room... except that would be much faster. Nealy No Latency. 73 John k9uwa The contacts were not made via the internet, they were made using a radio controlled over the internet. I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. Glenn WB5TUF John Goller, K9UWA Jean Goller, N9PXF Antique Radio Restorations k9...@arrl.net Visit our Web Site at: http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com 4836 Ranch Road Leo, IN 46765 USA 1-260-637-6426 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
