Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Rob Atkinson]

Since I started the thread I think I should post a follow up on what I
found regarding the NCC-1 phasing network.  I apologize for the late
post.  The past 24 hours have mostly been spent preparing for and
attending a hamfest.

Firstly the box is working okay; problem solved.  The problem was a
combination of haste, some misunderstanding of the manual, and
possibly a bit of missing information in the manual.  These are great
ingredients for trouble.

Background:  I am on a 50 x 100 foot city lot and need small rx loops
and phasing to reduce or eliminate the worst RFI from plasma TVs, and
other junk.  My 160 m. tx antenna, an inverted L with a 101 radial
ground system is not a good rx antenna, as I'm sure most here
discovered in their salad days.

The loops, Pixel Pro 1Bs need 24 v. dc to run their preamps.  I have a
24 v. supply but it is used to power relays on transmit so I decided
to go with the supplied wall wart dc supplies that accompany the rest
of the antenna for powering the preamps outside via the feedlines.
The T/R supply is dedicated to a homebrew sequencer and my operation
involves separate transmitters and receivers most of the time.  I also
wanted separate independent on/off control of the dc to the antenna
preamps so one could be energized or the other but not both.   All of
this could have been done with the sequencer supply but I figured use
these wall wart supplies and get on with life.

I'll save time by not going through the process--after fooling around
with a clip lead I eventually discovered that the relays in the box
were not getting energized because apparently some DC supply has to be
there for that to happen, either an external antenna preamp supply or
the internal supply (actually the recommended 2A 13.8 v. outboard
supply that powers the NCC1).

I did not want to use the 13.8 v. supply for the antennas so I moved
the jumper to external, but I also did not have an antenna preamp
supply on the rear panel jack that is there for that purpose.  I did
not realize that the jumpers on each rx antenna jack are to
disable/enable dc to the antennas.  I moved them to disable dc, and
with the jumper that switches between the 13.8 supply or an outside
antenna preamp supply back on the "internal" supply, the NCC1 internal
relays operated and the box works FB.

What I missed was that you have to have a supply enabled for the
relays to operate, either the one that powers the box or I guess an
external antenna preamp supply coming in from outside.  If you disable
the 13.8 v. supply for antennas at that jumper, but run the antennas
from sources removed from the phasing box then the LED lights up on
the front panel, you think the box is working, but unbeknownst to you
the internal relays are all in bypass mode and you think something
inside died on you.   I began to suspect this when I put the antenna
supply jumper back on internal (it was the only change I had made),
and used a clip lead to short the T/R jack center to ground and heard
the relays switching.

If I had been using preamps that took 12 v. I would have probably
never run into this because I would have just used the same supply
that runs the NCC1.   I also mistakenly thought the enable/disable
jumpers, one for each antenna A  and B were there to disconnect those
antennas; not block DC to them which the manual was pretty clear
about, and I missed because uh, life is too short for a thorough
reading of manuals?  hi hi.

So, the takeaway is enable the internal supply to the antennas then
disable it at each antenna jack jumper if you are either not using
active antennas or you are using active antennas powered completely
apart from the NCC1.  If you have made it this far without being
confused congratulations.  I wrote it and I need more coffee.

With limited use I can't comment extensively on the NCC1 performance
but after around an hour running it last night I was pleased with the
ease at finding noise nulls.

Tnx for the time and also to everyone who responded to me privately --
I can't reply to each person but I appreciate the advice, tips, and so
on.

73

Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Tim Duffy]

Thanks Bill:

 

We will take care of it on Monday 

 

VY 73 and CU on Topband,

Tim K3LR

 

  _  

From: 93bm...@gmail.com [mailto:93bm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Bill Tippett
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 11:26 AM
To: Joel; topband
Cc: Tim Duffy K3LR
Subject: Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

 

On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Joel <k...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi Bill
Latest DXE site: NCC-1 INS revision 7a!
Thanks for your input
Joel K4WM

 

You're right Joel!  My search took me to an older file still on DXE's
website. 

 

https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/dxe-ncc-1_oh.pdf
<<<<<<<<<<<(use this one)

 

http://static.dxengineering.com/pdf/NCC-1-Rev5d.pdf  <<<<<<<<<<<<(NOT this
one)

 

73,  Bill  W4ZV

 

ATTN: K3LR - DXE needs to purge older manuals.

 

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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Bill Tippett]

On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Joel  wrote:

> Hi Bill
> Latest DXE site: NCC-1 INS revision 7a!
> Thanks for your input
> Joel K4WM


You're right Joel!  My search took me to an older file still on DXE's
website.

https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/dxe-ncc-1_oh.pdf
 <<<(use this one)

http://static.dxengineering.com/pdf/NCC-1-Rev5d.pdf  (NOT this
one)

73,  Bill  W4ZV

ATTN: K3LR - DXE needs to purge older manuals.
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Bill Tippett]

I'll add a comment about documentation.  I bought a new-in-box NCC-1 from
another ham in late 2009 and had several problems getting it to work
correctly.  The root cause was multiple errors in the printed manual and
(then current) online manual.  After multiple communications with W8JI, I
was able to get it working correctly, and DXE subsequently made several
revisions to their manual.  I believe the current online manual is correct
(Rev 5c) but advise everyone to use only the latest online manual rev
rather than the printed manual, especially if you buy an older unit.

I'm very happy with the NCC-1 once I got it working but the manual errors
made for a very frustrating experience.

73,  Bill  W4ZV

W8JI (12/25/09) wrote:

Hi Bill,

Merry Christmas!

Thanks for pointing out the manual shortfalls. User feedback like yours is
very important!

DXE will correct the HD4 errors. All units were properly shipped with 12V
as the default setting. The EXT is only used with an external preamp supply.

DXE already corrected the balance and attenuator errors, but the manual on
the DXE site was an older manual with the attenuator text error.
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Greg - ZL3IX]

Hi guys,

I hope you will forgive me for adding to a thread that the moderator has 
requested be shut down, but all the traffic on this happened around 2 AM 
while I was in bed.


My own view is that anyone intending to make a business in the field of 
amateur radio needs to understand the domain and the ethos. In our case 
part of our 'excuse' for having our licences is that we are carrying out 
self training in the field of communication. Refusing to supply a 
schematic for a piece of kit that is intended for ham radio use,  is 
contrary to ham spirit, in my opinion.


About a decade ago I designed my own 8-circle system. It was slightly 
different from the DXE version, in that only four of the elements were 
active at any one time. The four chosen were the ones giving a 
broadside-endfire configuration in the desired direction. I published my 
design in the national journal in NZ, and one of the guys in G-land with 
a website kindly put the article on his site for all to see (thanks 
John). In the event that anyone would have wanted to manufacture such a 
system for sale, I would have allowed this, but I would have insisted 
that they publish the schematic.


There are those who design and build their own kit, those for whom it is 
too complex and prefer to buy ready-made (this group is the main source 
of income for the equipment manufacturers), and those in the middle who 
will buy kit and modify it. Maybe someone in this last group will have a 
good idea for an improvement and advance the art by doing so. Power to 
their arm, and please give them the schematic to help them on their way.


I have an excellent amplifier from SPE in Italy, and I have had the same 
argument with SPE. Now, how many hams are going to copy the schematic 
and make their own SPE amp? Any other organisation wishing to copy the 
SPE design and reproduce it for profit, will reverse engineer it without 
the schematic being available. SPE needs to understand the domain in 
which they choose to engage in business and respect its ethos, and so 
does DXE.


73 from ZL

Greg ZL3IX.

On 2016-09-24 01:51 a.m., Rob Atkinson wrote:

Hello,

I am trying to set up a DX Engineering receiving antenna phasing box
but there appears to be something wrong with it and I need to
troubleshoot it.  The manual I have does not have a schematic for it.
If anyone has one I'd appreciate getting a copy.  I'll cover postage
etc.

Thanks 73

Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Martin, its all about reputation and DX-Engineering has the best.  Back 
in the 80's some periodicals were marketing the MaxCom baluns which 
claimed that they would yield a 1.5 to 1 SWR from 1.8 to 30 Mhz but 
refused to provide the details in schematic form. Many hams bought into 
this scam and QST refused to run their ads. What HQ did was take an 
X-ray of the unit and found inside some toaster heater wires sealed with 
epoxy resin. All it turn out to be was a dummy load with wires attached 
to the balun.  Anyone with knowledge would have known that the MaxCom 
balun was junk even though the SWR response was, as they advertised, 
relatively flat across the spectrum.  So your point is well taken except 
that the reputation of DX-Engineering should remove all doubt that you 
are buying a good product from  them.



Herb, KV4FZ
On 9/23/2016 12:09 PM, mar...@centrum.cz wrote:

Oh, a time ago I considered to buy the NCC-1. My final "NO" decision was caused by the "no schematic" policy 
or "Proprietary information" balast (also know as a Trade Secret). I will never buy such product although there are 
many. I believe that such "Trade Secret" can put both the seller and the designer (ie. the "secret" owner) 
into disreputation.

The argument with blackboxes in a car (or dishwasher, shaver etc.) is 
definitely wrong, we are hams and speaking about ham radio equipment...

73,
Martin, OK1RR
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[marcom]

Oh, a time ago I considered to buy the NCC-1. My final "NO" decision was caused 
by the "no schematic" policy or "Proprietary information" balast (also know as 
a Trade Secret). I will never buy such product although there are many. I 
believe that such "Trade Secret" can put both the seller and the designer (ie. 
the "secret" owner) into disreputation.

The argument with blackboxes in a car (or dishwasher, shaver etc.) is 
definitely wrong, we are hams and speaking about ham radio equipment...

73,
Martin, OK1RR
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[kolson]

I hope hams are not becoming strictly black box users. I also hope that there 
isn't a parallel being made between a licensed ham buying a piece of amateur 
equipment and some dude buying a Smartphone. 

In almost any technical environment, having info on how the product works and 
troubleshooting info isn't just some frivolous luxury. At my job, not being 
supplied tech info is a significant argument for not buying the product. For my 
ham activities , h aving info on what's in my radio  is actually something that 
I as the buyer expect. In either case, I find being told "you just have to send 
it back" whenever there is any problem unacceptable. 

Of course, the business in question can run their affairs however they want. 
But so can the customer. I had to laugh, when a customer (who was not 
particularly patient) brought in one vendor's vacuum tube preamplifier for 
repair, I asked the manufacturer for a schematic to make things easier. He was 
a real nice guy, but replied that the info was proprietary. I responded that 
there were only so many ways to hook up triodes! He still demurred, so I drew 
out the schematic from the circuit board and sent him a copy  just for fun! 

And actually, I drive a Prius and there are schematics and troubleshooting info 
available for it... 

73, Kevin K3OX  



- Original Message -

From: "Jeff" <w...@charter.net> 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:53:43 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box 

Because it's considered propriety information. You paid for a black box that 
does what it says it will. You did not pay for the why or how it works. This 
is not unusual business practice. You bought a car with dozens of black 
boxes in it, do you have schematics to those? 

-Original Message- 
From: Bob K6UJ 
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:40 AM 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box 

Rob, 

I just looked at my NCC-1 manual.  No schematic. 
It seems odd they wont provide one. I wonder what their 
reason is ?  I would give them a call. 
I may call them myself, I am contemplating the purchase of the 
new model but would like a schematic 

I like your callsign :-) 

Bob 
K6UJ 


On 9/23/16 6:59 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote: 
> update:  I just received an email, perhaps a canned response from DX 
> Engineering telling me they won't give me a schematic.  In addition, 
> rather than work with me to find the problem, they only offer their 
> repair service.   I am very disappointed in this after spending over 
> $1000 over the past two years on the Pro-1B loop antennas.  I guess 
> this means no one has a schematic so I'll just have to signal trace. 
> If this is a business decision, I think it is a poor one. 
> It certainly gives one pause about future purchases. 
> 
> 73 
> 
> Rob 
> K5UJ 
> _ 
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
> 

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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Jeff]

Darn spell check -- Proprietary information also know as a Trade Secret.


-Original Message- 
From: Jeff

Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:53 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

Because it's considered propriety information. You paid for a black box that
does what it says it will. You did not pay for the why or how it works. This
is not unusual business practice. You bought a car with dozens of black
boxes in it, do you have schematics to those?

-Original Message- 
From: Bob K6UJ

Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:40 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

Rob,

I just looked at my NCC-1 manual.  No schematic.
It seems odd they wont provide one. I wonder what their
reason is ?  I would give them a call.
I may call them myself, I am contemplating the purchase of the
new model but would like a schematic

I like your callsign :-)

Bob
K6UJ


On 9/23/16 6:59 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

update:  I just received an email, perhaps a canned response from DX
Engineering telling me they won't give me a schematic.  In addition,
rather than work with me to find the problem, they only offer their
repair service.   I am very disappointed in this after spending over
$1000 over the past two years on the Pro-1B loop antennas.  I guess
this means no one has a schematic so I'll just have to signal trace.
If this is a business decision, I think it is a poor one.
It certainly gives one pause about future purchases.

73

Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Bob K6UJ]

Jeff,

Good point.  !

Bob
K6UJ




On 9/23/16 7:53 AM, Jeff wrote:
Because it's considered propriety information. You paid for a black 
box that does what it says it will. You did not pay for the why or how 
it works. This is not unusual business practice. You bought a car with 
dozens of black boxes in it, do you have schematics to those?


-Original Message- From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:40 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

Rob,

I just looked at my NCC-1 manual.  No schematic.
It seems odd they wont provide one. I wonder what their
reason is ?  I would give them a call.
I may call them myself, I am contemplating the purchase of the
new model but would like a schematic

I like your callsign :-)

Bob
K6UJ


On 9/23/16 6:59 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

update:  I just received an email, perhaps a canned response from DX
Engineering telling me they won't give me a schematic.  In addition,
rather than work with me to find the problem, they only offer their
repair service.   I am very disappointed in this after spending over
$1000 over the past two years on the Pro-1B loop antennas.  I guess
this means no one has a schematic so I'll just have to signal trace.
If this is a business decision, I think it is a poor one.
It certainly gives one pause about future purchases.

73

Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Chortek, Robert L.]

I have always found DXE customer service to be excellent!

I have connection to the company.

73

Bob AA6VB

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 23, 2016, at 7:41 AM, Rob Atkinson 
> wrote:

I just finished speaking with Tim K3LR on the land line with regard to
my problem  We had a cordial conversation and I must say in all the
years I have been a ham, I have never had the president of a company
immediately call me to address my concerns and problems with a
product.   I am confident whatever is plaguing my NCC-1 will get fixed
whether it's the unit, or operator head-space.

I also received a satisfactory explanation for the policy of not
providing a schematic for the NCC-1.   The repair service terms as
explained to me are quite reasonable but I hope I don't have to send
it in for repair.  I certainly appreciate this fast response.   Also,
I mischaracterized the service dept. email as "canned."  It did have
some personalized text in it which I overlooked and I apologize for
that.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Tim Duffy 
> wrote:
Hello Rob:

Please call DX Engineering. We will help you get your NCC-1 working
properly.

73
Tim K3LR
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Rob Atkinson]

I just finished speaking with Tim K3LR on the land line with regard to
my problem  We had a cordial conversation and I must say in all the
years I have been a ham, I have never had the president of a company
immediately call me to address my concerns and problems with a
product.   I am confident whatever is plaguing my NCC-1 will get fixed
whether it's the unit, or operator head-space.

I also received a satisfactory explanation for the policy of not
providing a schematic for the NCC-1.   The repair service terms as
explained to me are quite reasonable but I hope I don't have to send
it in for repair.  I certainly appreciate this fast response.   Also,
I mischaracterized the service dept. email as "canned."  It did have
some personalized text in it which I overlooked and I apologize for
that.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Tim Duffy  wrote:
> Hello Rob:
>
> Please call DX Engineering. We will help you get your NCC-1 working
> properly.
>
> 73
> Tim K3LR
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Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Bob K6UJ]

Rob,

I just looked at my NCC-1 manual.  No schematic.
It seems odd they wont provide one. I wonder what their
reason is ?  I would give them a call.
I may call them myself, I am contemplating the purchase of the
new model but would like a schematic

I like your callsign :-)

Bob
K6UJ


On 9/23/16 6:59 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

update:  I just received an email, perhaps a canned response from DX
Engineering telling me they won't give me a schematic.  In addition,
rather than work with me to find the problem, they only offer their
repair service.   I am very disappointed in this after spending over
$1000 over the past two years on the Pro-1B loop antennas.  I guess
this means no one has a schematic so I'll just have to signal trace.
If this is a business decision, I think it is a poor one.
It certainly gives one pause about future purchases.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
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Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Rob Atkinson]

update:  I just received an email, perhaps a canned response from DX
Engineering telling me they won't give me a schematic.  In addition,
rather than work with me to find the problem, they only offer their
repair service.   I am very disappointed in this after spending over
$1000 over the past two years on the Pro-1B loop antennas.  I guess
this means no one has a schematic so I'll just have to signal trace.
If this is a business decision, I think it is a poor one.
It certainly gives one pause about future purchases.

73

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Tim Duffy]

Hello Rob:

Please call DX Engineering. We will help you get your NCC-1 working
properly.

73
Tim K3LR

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Atkinson
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 9:52 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

Hello,

I am trying to set up a DX Engineering receiving antenna phasing box
but there appears to be something wrong with it and I need to
troubleshoot it.  The manual I have does not have a schematic for it.
If anyone has one I'd appreciate getting a copy.  I'll cover postage
etc.

Thanks 73

Rob
K5UJ
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Topband: DXE NCC-1 phasing box

[Rob Atkinson]

Hello,

I am trying to set up a DX Engineering receiving antenna phasing box
but there appears to be something wrong with it and I need to
troubleshoot it.  The manual I have does not have a schematic for it.
If anyone has one I'd appreciate getting a copy.  I'll cover postage
etc.

Thanks 73

Rob
K5UJ
_
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